The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (264 Viewers)

[Astute]

Our population is not naturally going up. The whole idea of selecting people won’t work in a country as big as ours with the various needs of the economy. It is just a fig leaf idea to say that we are not racist and we love immigrants really.

Not all available jobs are particularly skilled, for example in catering, hotels and some farming jobs.

The influx of EU migrants will slow anyway and they tend to be more flexible about returning to their own countries when the situation gets better at home or worse in the UK, as opposed to people from further afield.

Oh Mart.

Most people moving here are of the age they want to have a family. This adds to those already here that want to have a family. The rate of births is much higher than the rate of deaths. So the population is naturally going higher.

Or as usual do you count the truth in a different way?

 

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[SkyblueBazza]

Conclusions are not facts though Mart.

They are...Martfacts

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[Astute]

I just did explain it. Barnier explained it yet again. You blame everything from traffic to a lack of cheap housing being built on a part of the deal we have. Now you say you like the existing deal. Either you like it = remain, or you don’t = leave. You want your cake and eat it, which is not on the table. That is the case since the beginning. Nothing to do with me or my opinions.

You have explained nothing. You have just copied the words of someone from the EU that is trying to force us to stay in it.

I will try again. Why can't there be the same trade deal between the UK and EU that we presently have as the EU is offering the same to countries around the world?

 

[SkyblueBazza]

Tell me one thing then.

What is the problem with having the same trade deal that we have now? After all the EU is trying to make similar deals all over the world. And EU countries sell untold billions more here than we sell to the countries in the EU each year.

Do you think we are getting back to that bullying thing they do? Or is it discrimination - putting far more conditions in the mix?

You are right. Trade deal is a very easy one to resolve really if they wished.


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[SkyblueBazza]

As i said, at least you'll have to actually start looking at the UK government to actually invest in essential infastructure and services.

You mean...you found a positive?
Or is investing money in our own infrastructure a bad thing?

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[SkyblueBazza]

That's going to go down well, isn't it haha

It will if it happens. Families reunited. - that's two positives!

You're on a roll now!

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[Astute]

The lie was in big letters written on a bus. The figure was too high as a total and didn’t tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth. In other words, a false statement.

Higher amount? So the lie was the wrong side that you make it out to be.

You say then that about half of the money comes back. But how much of it comes back to the tax payer? Don't worry. You don't have to answer it and you won't.

Let's fund the NHS instead. That was what was on the bus. Not 350m a week would go to the NHS.

But guess what.......

NHS to get extra £384 million a week — that's more than on the Brexit battle bus

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

It wasn't an issue for me personally. I have family living elsewhere in the EU. I have just under 10 years maximum before I start touring Europe for the rest of my days.....If still allowed. But I am not blind to the issues for other people or issues with the way the EU is run.

I wasn't saying it's perfect just that I found it hard to understand some of the animosity when so many of this country's problems are either societal or caused by our own politicians.

 

[skybluetony176]

Higher amount? So the lie was the wrong side that you make it out to be.

You say then that about half of the money comes back. But how much of it comes back to the tax payer? Don't worry. You don't have to answer it and you won't.

Let's fund the NHS instead. That was what was on the bus. Not 350m a week would go to the NHS.

But guess what.......

NHS to get extra £384 million a week — that's more than on the Brexit battle bus

Nothing to do with Brexit though and in reality as a percentage is still less than average increases of budget to the NHS pre austerity while we were members of the EU. As always the devil is in the detail and this isn’t the brexit windfall as plastered on the side of the big red bus. Theresa May unveils £20bn boost for NHS
“It means the £114bn budget will rise by an average of 3.4% annually - but that is still less than the 3.7% average rise the NHS has had since 1948.”

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

And where does this money come from?

You will find that it is just a small amount that comes back that we hand over to the EU. A small part of about 50% of the money that comes back here. The 50% that some try to make out that comes back to the tax payer. But much more comes back to the rich.

In Coventry some of that money goes towards things like the Transport Museum, a lot will also go to Cov and Warwick Unis. I have very little faith that the money will continue to be provided by our own government after we leave and suspect it will be swallowed up into the deficit.

Funding research pays off for us in a lot more ways than the initial investment. It allows us first dibs on innovation and technology developed in house. Yes we contribute more than we receive but what we do receive is ringfenced for things which provide a benefit.

 

[Astute]

I wasn't saying it's perfect just that I found it hard to understand some of the animosity when so many of this country's problems are either societal or caused by our own politicians.

I also find it hard to understand some of the animosity that goes the other way against people who voted leave.

Different people have and will be affected in different ways. There isn't a right or wrong that fits everyone. Those who can't get a home to live in will have a different outlook than those who have come from or those who have a partner from elsewhere in the EU. And throwing around insults because you don't like something isn't right. But it happens on both sides.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Nothing to do with Brexit though and in reality as a percentage is still less than average increases of budget to the NHS pre austerity while we were members of the EU. As always the devil is in the detail and this isn’t the brexit windfall as plastered on the side of the big red bus. Theresa May unveils £20bn boost for NHS
“It means the £114bn budget will rise by an average of 3.4% annually - but that is still less than the 3.7% average rise the NHS has had since 1948.”

Just like the pay rise they seem to be granting teachers but they aren't providing any extra money for this, so it will have to come from schools' existing budgets.

 

[Astute]

Nothing to do with Brexit though and in reality as a percentage is still less than average increases of budget to the NHS pre austerity while we were members of the EU. As always the devil is in the detail and this isn’t the brexit windfall as plastered on the side of the big red bus. Theresa May unveils £20bn boost for NHS
“It means the £114bn budget will rise by an average of 3.4% annually - but that is still less than the 3.7% average rise the NHS has had since 1948.”

Read the details. Some won't come from Brexit savings. It equates to 3p tax rate increase.

And we don't have a clue if there will be savings from Brexit or not. We have to believe what we are told. And we know they are politicians. So we know they lie to us.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I also find it hard to understand some of the animosity that goes the other way against people who voted leave.

Different people have and will be affected in different ways. There isn't a right or wrong that fits everyone. Those who can't get a home to live in will have a different outlook than those who have come from or those who have a partner from elsewhere in the EU. And throwing around insults because you don't like something isn't right. But it happens on both sides.

I have thrown around few insults except in response to those received. I felt at the time that leaving was a mistake and I still feel that way, but I have to hope that I'm wrong.

I still feel that the country's problems are either endemic or self inflicted. I don't blame the EU for teachers' wages being frozen for nearly a decade or for the decision to blow tens of billions of pounds on a vanity project of a railway. Their contribution to our mess is a small one and I'm unconvinced it's all negative.

 

[Astute]

In Coventry some of that money goes towards things like the Transport Museum, a lot will also go to Cov and Warwick Unis. I have very little faith that the money will continue to be provided by our own government after we leave and suspect it will be swallowed up into the deficit.

Funding research pays off for us in a lot more ways than the initial investment. It allows us first dibs on innovation and technology developed in house. Yes we contribute more than we receive but what we do receive is ringfenced for things which provide a benefit.

But the tax payer pays the full amount. And those who are 100% pro EU make out that the EU pays for it all.

It is either one way or the other. Either the tax payer pays for it in money that comes back or the EU pays for it and the tax payer pays nothing.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

Our population is not naturally going up...

It is just a fig leaf idea to say that we are not racist and we love immigrants really.

Not all available jobs are particularly skilled, for example in catering, hotels and some farming jobs.

The influx of EU migrants will slow anyway and they tend to be more flexible about returning to their own countries when the situation gets better at home or worse in the UK, as opposed to people from further afield.

UK population last 3yrs has increased by about 400k, migration has been steady at 180k. That suggests it is 'naturally going up'.

Is your 'fig leaf' statement an insult to us all in the UK? It looks like you are suggesting in general we are racist, & do not like immigrants?

In your eyes, the majority of voters voted leave, and they are all idiots...poorly educated & all that. So they should fit perfectly into the jobs you describe.

So migrants from outside the EU thst come here will be even more likely to stay here rather than flit from one country to another in seek of money from the highest payers. Sounds actually like a recipe for a good quality of life...re-establishing good community spirit to me. Skill no longer needed? Re-skill rather than relocate - is there something wrong with that?

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[SkyblueBazza]

I just did explain it. Barnier explained it yet again. You blame everything from traffic to a lack of cheap housing being built on a part of the deal we have. Now you say you like the existing deal. Either you like it = remain, or you don’t = leave. You want your cake and eat it, which is not on the table. That is the case since the beginning. Nothing to do with me or my opinions.

He hasn't said the whole EU club deal. Just that the deal the EU seems happy to do with others, they can do very similar with us if they wish. But it appears they may want more conditions from us. Discrimination as-in

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[Brighton Sky Blue]

But the tax payer pays the full amount. And those who are 100% pro EU make out that the EU pays for it all.

It is either one way or the other. Either the tax payer pays for it in money that comes back or the EU pays for it and the tax payer pays nothing.

The money we get comes from a central pot contributed to by the member states including ourselves. You keep going on about points made by others which I haven't.

 

[Astute]

I have thrown around few insults except in response to those received. I felt at the time that leaving was a mistake and I still feel that way, but I have to hope that I'm wrong.

I still feel that the country's problems are either endemic or self inflicted. I don't blame the EU for teachers' wages being frozen for nearly a decade or for the decision to blow tens of billions of pounds on a vanity project of a railway. Their contribution to our mess is a small one and I'm unconvinced it's all negative.

We are similar in our views on this.

The problem is that changes were needed. We couldn't continue as things were. But we were not even allowed to have a meeting that was about having talks. Pay has been held low and reduced for millions. Yet to pay for everything needed we have to pay more in tax. Millions can't afford to pay more tax.

Then you have rules made up by the EU on how corporation tax can be payable and avoided. You even have one of the top EU people that made it easy for corporations to not pay their share of tax.

There isn't a magic pill we can take or a magic money tree. So what is the answer?

 

[Astute]

The money we get comes from a central pot contributed to by the member states including ourselves. You keep going on about points made by others which I haven't.

I have not mentioned anyone. It is the general comments made.

So you say it comes out of a central pot. So the tax payer doesn't get any money back then but the EU pays for it.

You can't have it both ways.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

The lie was in big letters written on a bus. The figure was too high as a total and didn’t tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth. In other words, a false statement.

It has now been compounded by May claiming the NHS was getting a Brexit dividend, which is also a false statement and not been heard of again.

Protectionism includes rules on safety, ethics, environment and can be used as a bargaining chip to access markets which we are excluded from. When Trump or Corbyn mention economic protectionism, they are applauded by some for acting on behalf of their own workforce- although they lose more than they win in trade wars or by subsidies. The less protectionism, the better, but none would be a step too far. Trying to subsidise, or favour your own manufacturing industry can lead to the absolute disaster of British Leyland which in the end led to Thatcherism.

Which is why the EU is signing new trade deals e.g. with Japan and Canada.

How many contradictions can you fit into one post?

You seriously aren't saying the EU doesn't subsidise it's own favoured industries? You cite less protectionism as better in manufacturing...but it is good in farming for example???

EU protectionism good...anyone else's bad? EU trade deals with Japan & Canada good...with UK on the same terms - bad?

Or have you crypitcally hidden or have I missed some other point?

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[Brighton Sky Blue]

I have not mentioned anyone. It is the general comments made.

So you say it comes out of a central pot. So the tax payer doesn't get any money back then but the EU pays for it.

You can't have it both ways.

Not what I said. We contribute, others contribute. So we are getting some of our own money back along with money from other member states.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

We are similar in our views on this.

The problem is that changes were needed. We couldn't continue as things were. But we were not even allowed to have a meeting that was about having talks. Pay has been held low and reduced for millions. Yet to pay for everything needed we have to pay more in tax. Millions can't afford to pay more tax.

Then you have rules made up by the EU on how corporation tax can be payable and avoided. You even have one of the top EU people that made it easy for corporations to not pay their share of tax.

There isn't a magic pill we can take or a magic money tree. So what is the answer?

Ask yourself one simple question. Have we as a country done everything we can to make our country better?

The Conservatives love finding loopholes and tax cuts for corporations. I could buy your argument if we weren't already engaging in these practices. There is one politician who wants to go after the corporations, but you think he's a prick and won't vote for his party. So we will continue to vote in governments we don't like passing policies we don't support because Jerry's a Trot. The EU doesn't dictate to the private sector what wages should be paid.

Laying our problems at the EU's door is something I could get onboard with if we hadn't done so much to shaft ourselves and if we hadn't had these societal problems for far longer than our membership.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

I have thrown around few insults except in response to those received. I felt at the time that leaving was a mistake and I still feel that way, but I have to hope that I'm wrong.

I still feel that the country's problems are either endemic or self inflicted. I don't blame the EU for teachers' wages being frozen for nearly a decade or for the decision to blow tens of billions of pounds on a vanity project of a railway. Their contribution to our mess is a small one and I'm unconvinced it's all negative.

I am with you most of the way on that. I do think EU impact is pretty significant...there are good & bad things associated with the EU too.

I voted remain but understand where many in both camps come from - most of it does or will balance out in the end imo.
I have accepted the outcome of the vote as being the will of the people because the majority of those that cared enough - cared to leave.

So I move on rather than sob, moan, fight it (on a football chatroom?!) etc that some are doing.

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[skybluetony176]

Read the details. Some won't come from Brexit savings. It equates to 3p tax rate increase.

And we don't have a clue if there will be savings from Brexit or not. We have to believe what we are told. And we know they are politicians. So we know they lie to us.

None of it will come from brexit savings is still a lower increase in budget than the average since 1948. In reality that’s a budget cut regardless of if “IF” there are brexit savings or not. Linking it to brexit in anyway whether that be what we might save by leaving the EU or what the bus said is a red herring.

 

[Astute]

Not what I said. We contribute, others contribute. So we are getting some of our own money back along with money from other member states.

We get back about half of what we put in. Nothing more at all unless you are saying we get back 25% of what we put in and the other. 25% comes from elsewhere.


But we should also use the term very loosely. We get back includes money to good causes as well as money that goes to the rich Tory landowners.

 

[Astute]

Ask yourself one simple question. Have we as a country done everything we can to make our country better?

The Conservatives love finding loopholes and tax cuts for corporations. I could buy your argument if we weren't already engaging in these practices. There is one politician who wants to go after the corporations, but you think he's a prick and won't vote for his party. So we will continue to vote in governments we don't like passing policies we don't support because Jerry's a Trot. The EU doesn't dictate to the private sector what wages should be paid.

Laying our problems at the EU's door is something I could get onboard with if we hadn't done so much to shaft ourselves and if we hadn't had these societal problems for far longer than our membership.

Shall we get back to Juncker and how many billions have been lost to the tax man each year because of what he set up? And then got a top job with the EU where he continued to keep up with the rules that made it possible to continue.

How does the Telegraph sit with you?

Revealed: How Jean-Claude Juncker's 'monster' is plotting to punish Britain for Brexit

 

[Astute]

None of it will come from brexit savings is still a lower increase in budget than the average since 1948. In reality that’s a budget cut regardless of if “IF” there are brexit savings or not. Linking it to brexit in anyway whether that be what we might save by leaving the EU or what the bus said is a red herring.

Which part was a red herring?

And inflation is at record lows. Comparing times when inflation was many multiples to now is just playing with numbers.

 

[skybluetony176]

Which part was a red herring?

And inflation is at record lows. Comparing times when inflation was many multiples to now is just playing with numbers.

All of it. The rate it’s rising is lower than average since the NHS was conceived, therefore no Brexit windfall. If the rate was higher than average you may have a point but even then not necessarily. And the figure of £384M is just convenient, if we were spending the £360M a week on the NHS instead as per the big red bus the figure in the Sun headline would be £744M and as a percentage the rise would be way above the average not below. That’s before you even factor in that the increases are happening annually over the next 5years so actually the headline figure of £384M won’t happen until the final year. As I said the devil is in the detail. The details are in the BBC article I linked if you care to read it,

 

[Astute]

All of it. The rate it’s rising is lower than average since the NHS was conceived, therefore no Brexit windfall. If the rate was higher than average you may have a point but even then not necessarily. And the figure of £384M is just convenient, if we were spending the £360M a week on the NHS instead as per the big red bus the figure in the Sun headline would be £744M and as a percentage the rise would be way above the average not below. That’s before you even factor in that the increases are happening annually over the next 5years so actually the headline figure of £384M won’t happen until the final year. As I said the devil is in the detail. The details are in the BBC article I linked if you care to read it,

The devil is in the way you word what you want to say.

5% rise when inflation is lower is more than a 10% rise when inflation is higher than 10%. Inflation has always been higher than the present days. It is all about real terms.

But you miss the biggest problem. Do you trust politicians to keep up with what they are saying?

And why do you say that the bus said that we would be spending 350m a week more after Brexit when it doesn't? Not bad when you have a go at leave lies.

 

[skybluetony176]

The devil is in the way you word what you want to say.

5% rise when inflation is lower is more than a 10% rise when inflation is higher than 10%. Inflation has always been higher than the present days. It is all about real terms.

But you miss the biggest problem. Do you trust politicians to keep up with what they are saying?

And why do you say that the bus said that we would be spending 350m a week more after Brexit when it doesn't? Not bad when you have a go at leave lies.

No. The devil is in the detail. You say the way you word it but your theory, and it is a theory, is that inflation will remain at current levels.

 

[martcov]

How many contradictions can you fit into one post?

You seriously aren't saying the EU doesn't subsidise it's own favoured industries? You cite less protectionism as better in manufacturing...but it is good in farming for example???

EU protectionism good...anyone else's bad? EU trade deals with Japan & Canada good...with UK on the same terms - bad?

Or have you crypitcally hidden or have I missed some other point?

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No, you are just making things up.

 

[martcov]

He hasn't said the whole EU club deal. Just that the deal the EU seems happy to do with others, they can do very similar with us if they wish. But it appears they may want more conditions from us. Discrimination as-in

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What extra conditions? What must we do extra to get a Norway deal?

 

[martcov]

Nothing to do with Brexit though and in reality as a percentage is still less than average increases of budget to the NHS pre austerity while we were members of the EU. As always the devil is in the detail and this isn’t the brexit windfall as plastered on the side of the big red bus. Theresa May unveils £20bn boost for NHS
“It means the £114bn budget will rise by an average of 3.4% annually - but that is still less than the 3.7% average rise the NHS has had since 1948.”

It will also be funded from higher taxes and NI contributions. We are still in the EU during the transition and will be paying our liabilities in 40 bn during the proposed time. So no Brexit Bonus there. Cameron said before the referendum that he would have to put in 10 bn to keep the NHS going.

If we take a short term hit, which the leavers are now saying/ admitting, then tax revenue will fall wiping out the so called Brexit dividend at least in part.

 

[Sick Boy]

You mean...you found a positive?
Or is investing money in our own infrastructure a bad thing?

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I wasn't aware that the EU has started imposing restrictions on the UK's ability to invest in infastructure and public services. Blimey, it really has got out of hand.