Danceswithhorses
Well-Known Member
Marvin Sordell calls for full-time counsellors in football clubs
Didn't realise the guy was suffering so much.
Didn't realise the guy was suffering so much.
Marvin Sordel and his thoughts on depression (4 Viewers)
- Thread starter Danceswithhorses
- Start date
Nick
Administrator
Although I agree with helping with Mental Health in any profession I'm not too sure how it would work.
Players will only talk to counsellors if they want to talk to them, it's not really the same as having a nutritionist in place as they can simply say "stop eating this, you need to eat this, this and this".
I understand having somebody at the club day in, day out means that they might trust them more but on the other hand players might feel more comfortable speaking to a "stranger". It's going to be different depending on the circumstances.
Players will only talk to counsellors if they want to talk to them, it's not really the same as having a nutritionist in place as they can simply say "stop eating this, you need to eat this, this and this".
I understand having somebody at the club day in, day out means that they might trust them more but on the other hand players might feel more comfortable speaking to a "stranger". It's going to be different depending on the circumstances.
better days
Well-Known Member
By coincidence I'm currently reading Tony Adams latest book 'Sober'
He says that when he started his Sporting Chance charity 75% of the players who were seeking help were alcoholics
Now 75% are addicted to gambling
Both of course lead to depression
He says family or friends often come to the charity on behalf of players but he tells them the player himself must make the approach
It's only when the player himself accepts he has a problem that's out of control that he can be helped
He says that when he started his Sporting Chance charity 75% of the players who were seeking help were alcoholics
Now 75% are addicted to gambling
Both of course lead to depression
He says family or friends often come to the charity on behalf of players but he tells them the player himself must make the approach
It's only when the player himself accepts he has a problem that's out of control that he can be helped
Nick
Administrator
That's sort of what I meant as well.
If somebody was at Ryton full time, it wouldn't be a case of them watching the players and saying "X and Y are depressed" and saying "you have depression, come and talk to me" like a nutritionist or physio can say "you arent eating right" etc.
At the point where the player is actively thinking "I need help" then they should be able to approach the PFA who will then have a list of therapists / councillors in their area who they can go to who may be a specialist and can relate to sports people more.
I think one at every club is a bit extreme.
Terry_dactyl
Well-Known Member
Or are symptoms of depression.
A lot of workplaces have ‘supervision’ which is an opportunity for staff to talk about how things are. I wonder if football clubs have the same?
better days
Well-Known Member
The PFA actually support Sporting Chance financially and also pay for individual players to go in
Every club has a PFA rep but it's hard for any of us to spot depression in a work mate or family member unless they actually admit it themselves
Football is the best job in the world when all is going well but when you're injured or out of the team.........
Terry_dactyl
Well-Known Member
Yeah, I was kind of expanding on the theme. Just wondering how much clubs ‘check in’ with players.
Danceswithhorses
Well-Known Member
Like, for example, Robert Enke the German goalkeeper...Benfica, Barcelona and widely believed to become Germany's no.1 ... killed himself in 2009 at the age of 32...very sad
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covcity4life
Well-Known Member
Yeah, just wake up one day and everything feels more challenging and stressfull etc
the rumpo kid
Well-Known Member
Here i am brain the size of a planet.... oops wrong depressed Marvin. :emoji_smile:
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Just a personal bug bear. Lots of people mix it up with just being a bit down. Same people then think people need to “snap out of it”. Not having a go, just like to set the record straight for others as a sufferer myself.
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
have often said this. It would be like people with a cold saying I've got cancer and then telling people who really have cancer to 'man up' and get through it.
Only semantics but I think it's an important point you've made.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
His poem is very moving. Glad he’s speaking out about it, it’s a very serious issue and very misunderstood.
Mucca Mad Boys
Well-Known Member
You’re missing the point of having a counsellor. Most of the time, it’s just having someone at the club who you can talk to impartially — even if a lot of cases are people just having ‘downturns’ rather than there being a massive problem like full blown anxiety or depression.
We have physios to treat physical problems, so why wouldn’t you have someone there to treat players for any mental problems.
It is time that professional sports teams and leagues took the issue of mental health more seriously.
Nick
Administrator
That still means the player has to make the move to speak to them
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Aren’t they more likely to talk to them if they’re there to speak to? The issue is that they aren’t there. People to treat physical health available to them in droves, mental health and there’s no one. If clubs and football Associations are going to invest in players health they shouldn’t ignore mental health. It can have as big a bearing on a players performance as physical health. Ask Chris Kirkland.
Nick
Administrator
Not saying it should be ignored, far from it.
Just not sure about an on site councillor at clubs. It may go the other way that people wouldn't want to speak to them because they are there all the time and don't want to be judged by somebody close to them.
Some might feel more able to open up to somebody they don't have to see every day.
Maybe a PFA approved councillor who is qualified and experienced with footballers that could serve a certain area. I'm not saying footballers should hide it and not be open but some might prefer more discretion.
Just not sure about an on site councillor at clubs. It may go the other way that people wouldn't want to speak to them because they are there all the time and don't want to be judged by somebody close to them.
Some might feel more able to open up to somebody they don't have to see every day.
Maybe a PFA approved councillor who is qualified and experienced with footballers that could serve a certain area. I'm not saying footballers should hide it and not be open but some might prefer more discretion.
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TheDube
Active Member
I know Nick has said along the lines of the players have to instigate the conversation which is right, it's the first steps to facing such a problem. However, if a counsellor was based at the club they could have mandatory sessions and assess everyone within the club.
Read Tony Adams' book too, but get the impression sporting chance is geared towards full blown problems where it's last chance saloon, the counsellors could be great in stopping/easing depression before it manifests.
Read Tony Adams' book too, but get the impression sporting chance is geared towards full blown problems where it's last chance saloon, the counsellors could be great in stopping/easing depression before it manifests.
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
Don't Manchester City have someone full time at the club?
I'm sure someone has said recently that they helped them through a difficult time, may have been Delph.
I'm sure someone has said recently that they helped them through a difficult time, may have been Delph.
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
Many workplaces of a half decent size have a counsellor and support available, if you want to tap into it.
Don't know why a football club should be any different. Not sure it has to be full-time mind.
Don't know why a football club should be any different. Not sure it has to be full-time mind.
Mucca Mad Boys
Well-Known Member
The pertinent point is that people like Sordell seem to think that a support structure would encourage players to do exactly that.
To draw upon the physio example once more, players are more likely to go and see a physio who’s there day-to-day with a smaller injuries. From a performance perspective, you want everyone at their very best.
Nick
Administrator
A small physical injury isn't quite the same though is it?
I'm just saying that some players might not be so keen to go and open up to people they have to see all day every day and who are also speaking to their mates. They might also have the worry that they will then speak to people like the manager about it.
Mucca Mad Boys
Well-Known Member
I can tell you now that it’s exactly the same. When I played rugby at uni, we had no physio, so I couldn’t go to anyone about any niggly injuries. Back home, my rugby club has a physio, and whenever something niggly bothers me, I go either get a massage, or treatment. One particular game my knee felt a bit loose — I got it taped up, which I wouldn’t have done at uni.
You’re more likely to use a service if it’s made available to you. You’re making an assumption that players won’t come and see a club counsellor. Which is completely different to going out of your way to seek help from a charity or private clinic. There is plenty of proactive things clubs can do to look after their players, right through to youth players.
better days
Well-Known Member
At least people are speaking about this now without fear of ridicule
It's not that many years since John Gregory was scathing about one of his players admitting he suffered from depression
It's not that many years since John Gregory was scathing about one of his players admitting he suffered from depression
Nick
Administrator
It's not the same, don't get me wrong in the ideal world it should be but realistically it's not.
I am not saying nobody would see them, I am saying for the reasons stated people may not want to. If I had a counsellor at work that I saw day in, day out and knew all of my workmates and my boss then I'd feel less inclined to open up to them (especially if it was work related) than I would if it was a random independent counsellor.
If a counsellor was employed by the same people as I was, I'd feel less inclined to be totally honest if I had issues at work / my boss / the company. If for example I was gambling or drinking too much I'd feel more comfortable telling somebody independent this than somebody at work who I'd see every day.
A counsellor at every club may well help for some, others it might not.
Mucca Mad Boys
Well-Known Member
I don’t quite understand your first point. If you’re saying in an ‘ideal world’ mental and physical ‘injuries’ are treated equally? Then why are you seemingly arguing against clubs employing full time counsellors?Clearly you have prioritised one over the other. To labour my point about a physio, you wouldn’t outsource that to an independent physio which you’d only send injured players to, would you? Why? Because injury prevention is far more important than injury treatment. The same rings true when it comes to mental health issues — it’s not totally the same, but they’re very similar.
Counsellors are independent and impartial by nature. They’re bounded to secrecy unless you state an intent to hurt yourself or others. So the only real difference between an independent or club counsellor is access. A lot of people don’t want to admit they’re going through a tough time. Heck, I nearly ruined my last year at uni over it.
No one is saying that it’s the perfect solution to this, but your last admission that it ‘may well help for some’ makes it worth it nonetheless. Making these services more accessible is paramount.
Nick
Administrator
I have said why they wouldn't be treated equally in the real world, not by the staff but from people themselves who are struggling. Some people may prefer more discretion when it comes to opening up, some people may find it easy.
I'd be quite happy to discuss a physical injury with somebody I work with every day more than I would a mental issue. especially if it was work related where they might think I couldn't do my job properly.
This is what I mean by in an ideal world it would be the same but it isn't when it comes to reality.
Terry_dactyl
Well-Known Member
Did he? I’ll add this to my list - ‘reasons to dislike John gregory’. What a twat.
vow
Well-Known Member
Indeed and to quote an article in The Guardian from 1999 re. Stan Collymore..Mollycuddle Collymore
"John Gregory, cannot see what the problem is. 'Stressed out?' he questions. 'Try telling that to a 29-year-old at somewhere like Rochdale with three months left on his contract, a wife, three kids and a mortgage.' At least one fellow player, in fact, has called him an embarrassment to the profession since it emerged that he is seeking counselling for stress."
So, earning 20k a week should exempt you from mental illness....ok then.
better days
Well-Known Member
It's interesting who past players have turned to when they knew things were out of control
Paul Merson went to one of the Arsenal directors, the first person he saw in the car park the day he finally admitted to himself he needed help
Tony Adams broke down in his local when the barman saw he was in a state and asked if he was 'all right'
I think he also then went to one of the directors
I suppose it's that thing of not being able to admit it to management on the playing side for fear of showing weakness and jeopardising your place in the team
Paul Merson went to one of the Arsenal directors, the first person he saw in the car park the day he finally admitted to himself he needed help
Tony Adams broke down in his local when the barman saw he was in a state and asked if he was 'all right'
I think he also then went to one of the directors
I suppose it's that thing of not being able to admit it to management on the playing side for fear of showing weakness and jeopardising your place in the team
Samo
Well-Known Member
It doesn't have to be full time or employed by the club; it could be brought as and when through a partner organisation like Mind.
Skybluefaz
Well-Known Member
It's a really difficult subject to deal with isn't it? Look at the responses, everyone has a different solution and idea about how to help with depression, probably comes about from how we all deal or have dealt with it. In our own way. Of course a dedicated employed professional would be a great help, but on the flip side, that person has to be paid and the pressure is always on the club to but the best team they can on the pitch. Personally I think it should be the managers job to be first and foremost approachable, and then keep an eye out for anyone who seems off and then offer information on help available through the NHS and I'm sure the pfa must have people who deal with anxiety and depression. The club needs to be well aware of the options if the player needs the help.
Nick
Administrator
Footballers won't be using NHS counseling though surely?
Skybluefaz
Well-Known Member
I dunno, my main point is that the club should have a road map to a number of solutions rather than necessarily employ a singular person to take care of the players mental health.