I_Saw_Shaw_Score
Well-Known Member
He’s been named on Facebook as Teil Portlock.
Double decker crash (5 Viewers)
- Thread starter stupot07
- Start date
He’s been named on Facebook as Teil Portlock.
Sumo the Micky Quinn
Well-Known Member
Police statement
Investigating officer Sergeant Alan Wood, from the Serious Collision Investigation Unit, said: "This has been a challenging and lengthy investigation for West Midlands Police and we know that the conclusions can give little satisfaction to Dora and Rowan’s families.
"Kailash Chander’s dementia issues mean that he cannot be formally tried for his driving that day and we really feel for the families that justice cannot truly be served against him.
"His employers, Midland Red South, have rightly pleaded guilty for their failure to manage their staff appropriately and place people as risk.
"However, it should not be forgotten that with any driver getting behind a wheel it is their personal responsibility to know they are fit to do so and their responsibility to drive appropriately. Chander did not have to work the hours that he chose to do.
"I know that that the families of Rowan and Dora cannot comprehend how a 77-year-old man could legally work a 75-hour week driving public service vehicles.
"I have to agree with their observations; common sense would say this cannot be right and it would appear a legal review of GB Domestic Rules for bus drivers hours is wholly appropriate.
"I would like to thank the families for their patience with the investigation and court proceedings, I know there have been times where they have been truly frustrated and I hope that now they can move on and start to rebuild their lives."
I wonder if this will happen - "I have to agree with their observations; common sense would say this cannot be right and it would appear a legal review of GB Domestic Rules for bus drivers hours is wholly appropriate." My first opinion when I passed my bus test was that I couldn't believe a bag of sugar transported by lorry is better transported by law than a bus passenger.
"Chander did not have to work the hours that he chose to do." - This a mentioned above seems to cultural as most drivers I worked with couldn't wait to retire.
Due to his dementia I don't think he will be sent down, but I don't know what the alternative is.
The video certainly shocked me, how much he lost control.
Investigating officer Sergeant Alan Wood, from the Serious Collision Investigation Unit, said: "This has been a challenging and lengthy investigation for West Midlands Police and we know that the conclusions can give little satisfaction to Dora and Rowan’s families.
"Kailash Chander’s dementia issues mean that he cannot be formally tried for his driving that day and we really feel for the families that justice cannot truly be served against him.
"His employers, Midland Red South, have rightly pleaded guilty for their failure to manage their staff appropriately and place people as risk.
"However, it should not be forgotten that with any driver getting behind a wheel it is their personal responsibility to know they are fit to do so and their responsibility to drive appropriately. Chander did not have to work the hours that he chose to do.
"I know that that the families of Rowan and Dora cannot comprehend how a 77-year-old man could legally work a 75-hour week driving public service vehicles.
"I have to agree with their observations; common sense would say this cannot be right and it would appear a legal review of GB Domestic Rules for bus drivers hours is wholly appropriate.
"I would like to thank the families for their patience with the investigation and court proceedings, I know there have been times where they have been truly frustrated and I hope that now they can move on and start to rebuild their lives."
I wonder if this will happen - "I have to agree with their observations; common sense would say this cannot be right and it would appear a legal review of GB Domestic Rules for bus drivers hours is wholly appropriate." My first opinion when I passed my bus test was that I couldn't believe a bag of sugar transported by lorry is better transported by law than a bus passenger.
"Chander did not have to work the hours that he chose to do." - This a mentioned above seems to cultural as most drivers I worked with couldn't wait to retire.
Due to his dementia I don't think he will be sent down, but I don't know what the alternative is.
The video certainly shocked me, how much he lost control.
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Sumo the Micky Quinn
Well-Known Member
Tribute to "brave" member of public
Sgt Wood also paid tribute to a 35-year-old member of the public outside Sainsbury’s who alerted pedestrians to the oncoming bus, ushering them out of the way and running to give help.
Tiel Portlock helped victims of the double-decker bus crash
He said: "The actions of Tiel Portlock should be commended, I am certain that his bravery on the day saved many other lives.
"This is self-evident from the CCTV footage."
CovInEssex
Well-Known Member
If he's a City fan he should be sorted out
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
That's easy to say in theory but as anyone who has to do a significant amount of driving for their job will know in practice you wouldn't be in your job long if you turned up and refused to drive.
The far bigger issue here is that anyone, let alone a pensioner, can legally drive anything, let alone a bus full of members of the public, for over 70 hours a week.
Surely the law will be changed and it needs to happen quickly.
Captain Dart
Well-Known Member
WTF, he drove on the pavement at least 100 yds!
Also...
The jury were also told today that Midland Red have also been prosecuted in connection with the incident and the firm has pleaded guilty to offences contrary to the Health and Safety at Work & Act 1974.
Mr Thomas stated that Midland Red has admitted that by permitting Chander to continue driving despite the warnings about his competence and his fatigue, “they exposed both him and the general public to risks to their safety”.
Also...
The jury were also told today that Midland Red have also been prosecuted in connection with the incident and the firm has pleaded guilty to offences contrary to the Health and Safety at Work & Act 1974.
Mr Thomas stated that Midland Red has admitted that by permitting Chander to continue driving despite the warnings about his competence and his fatigue, “they exposed both him and the general public to risks to their safety”.
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CovInEssex
Well-Known Member
No one will be put to the sword though, except the old boy.
(Not sympathising with him)
(Not sympathising with him)
Covstu
Well-Known Member
Potential corporate manslaughter?
Westendlad
Well-Known Member
Wonder if our council will do anything to honour him never mind the City..
Westendlad
Well-Known Member
Stagecoach (leam) didn't care a toss how many hours drivers used to work as long as the shifts were covered when i worked there.
covmark
Well-Known Member
This is bang on. I'm a HGV driver. It is illegal for me to work over 60 hours in one week. Why is it different for a bus driver?
I'm carrying milk. He's carrying people.
I'll add to this that our vehicles are restricted to 56mph and I'm regularly overtaken by coaches doing in excess of 60mph.
Again, I'm carrying milk. They're carrying people.
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Nick
Administrator
Nobody cries over spilt milk though.
duffer
Well-Known Member
I must confess that at least in part I do feel sorry for the driver.
He's got dementia and reading between the lines he's had problems for a while. He didn't have to keep putting himself forward for work, but who knows how much of it was down to his illness. One of the symptoms I've seen in the illness is an absolute obsession with money, literally counting it all day, in terror of not having enough; did something like this drive his need to keep working so obsessively?
The company were clearly aware of issues, but it suited them to disregard them. Basically cheaper and easier for them. I'm not sure that a fine here is quite enough of a deterrent. Massive damages and at the very least dismissal of some of the senior managers might help focus things for others in the industry perhaps...
And yes, the law's an ass. I can't see any way that driving a bus in town is less demanding than driving a lorry on a motorway. There has to be some sort of change to the law here.
Sumo the Micky Quinn
Well-Known Member
Company handed massive fine.
Sainsbury's bus crash LIVE: Company handed massive fine
Midland Red handed fine
Judge Farrer has ruled that Midland Red will be fined £2.335million.
The firm is also ordered to pay the prosecution’s costs of £7,214.
Yesterday we heard In the parent group’s (Stagecoach) latest accounts it had a turnover of £3.2billion and a profit before tax of £144million.
No compensation claim
Mr Thomas says no claim for compensation is being made in the case, as that would need to happen through the civil courts.
Statement from Midland Red (South) Ltd
Phil Medlicott delivered a statement on the steps of Birmingham Crown Court following this morning’s conclusion of the case.
He opened by saying: “None of us at our company will ever forget the terrible events of 3 October 2015. We are deeply sorry for the heartache of everyone affected, particularly the families of Rowan Fitzgerald and Dora Hancox.
“Safety is and always will be our first concern, and we take our responsibilities extremely seriously. We have made it our continuing priority to work very closely with the authorities to help fully understand and learn detailed lessons from what has happened.
Failings accepted
Mr Medlicott goes on to say his company accepts the failings which led to the tragedy in Coventry city centre in October 2015.
He said: “We know and fully accept that there were a number of failings at our company and we bear the weight of our responsibility for this terrible tragedy.
“That’s why we made early guilty pleas.
“While we met in full all the regulations around driver working hours and had all of the relevant checks in place, our own detailed policies were not followed as closely as they should have been.
“There were failures at an operational level in driver supervision and we deeply regret the opportunities that were missed to act decisively on emerging warning signs.”
Coventry bus crash driver sentenced
Judge Farrer rules that Kailash Chander will be the subject of a two-year supervision order.
The order includes conditions of Chander being under a social worker and a psychiatrist for the entire time of the order.
The judge says the order will “allow Chander to be treated and provide assistance to his daughter who is likely to become his long-term carer”.
Why was Chander sentenced as he was?
In September it was ruled Kailash Chander was medically unfit to stand trial because he had been diagnosed with dementia.
This meant he was not able to enter a plea to the charges against him, to stand trial, or be convicted.
Instead he faced a trial of the facts where it was the task of a jury to decide of Chander committed the acts alleged against him, which they did.
Because of his medical condition, the options available to the court were to issue a hospital order, a supervision order, or an absolute disharge against Chander.
Today the court issued a two year supervision order where he will remain under the supervision of social services for the duration of the order.
Sainsbury's bus crash LIVE: Company handed massive fine
Midland Red handed fine
Judge Farrer has ruled that Midland Red will be fined £2.335million.
The firm is also ordered to pay the prosecution’s costs of £7,214.
Yesterday we heard In the parent group’s (Stagecoach) latest accounts it had a turnover of £3.2billion and a profit before tax of £144million.
No compensation claim
Mr Thomas says no claim for compensation is being made in the case, as that would need to happen through the civil courts.
Statement from Midland Red (South) Ltd
Phil Medlicott delivered a statement on the steps of Birmingham Crown Court following this morning’s conclusion of the case.
He opened by saying: “None of us at our company will ever forget the terrible events of 3 October 2015. We are deeply sorry for the heartache of everyone affected, particularly the families of Rowan Fitzgerald and Dora Hancox.
“Safety is and always will be our first concern, and we take our responsibilities extremely seriously. We have made it our continuing priority to work very closely with the authorities to help fully understand and learn detailed lessons from what has happened.
Failings accepted
Mr Medlicott goes on to say his company accepts the failings which led to the tragedy in Coventry city centre in October 2015.
He said: “We know and fully accept that there were a number of failings at our company and we bear the weight of our responsibility for this terrible tragedy.
“That’s why we made early guilty pleas.
“While we met in full all the regulations around driver working hours and had all of the relevant checks in place, our own detailed policies were not followed as closely as they should have been.
“There were failures at an operational level in driver supervision and we deeply regret the opportunities that were missed to act decisively on emerging warning signs.”
Coventry bus crash driver sentenced
Judge Farrer rules that Kailash Chander will be the subject of a two-year supervision order.
The order includes conditions of Chander being under a social worker and a psychiatrist for the entire time of the order.
The judge says the order will “allow Chander to be treated and provide assistance to his daughter who is likely to become his long-term carer”.
Why was Chander sentenced as he was?
In September it was ruled Kailash Chander was medically unfit to stand trial because he had been diagnosed with dementia.
This meant he was not able to enter a plea to the charges against him, to stand trial, or be convicted.
Instead he faced a trial of the facts where it was the task of a jury to decide of Chander committed the acts alleged against him, which they did.
Because of his medical condition, the options available to the court were to issue a hospital order, a supervision order, or an absolute disharge against Chander.
Today the court issued a two year supervision order where he will remain under the supervision of social services for the duration of the order.
Sumo the Micky Quinn
Well-Known Member
By the sound of stagecoach have already put into action that no driver should work over retirement age or over a set number of hours.
Whilst I welcome this it is "THE LAW" that needs changing to stop individuals suing the company/companies, (as they state they are working with other companies in the UK follow suit), for wrongful dismissal at a certain age or refusing to allow an individual the opportunity of over time.
Whilst I welcome this it is "THE LAW" that needs changing to stop individuals suing the company/companies, (as they state they are working with other companies in the UK follow suit), for wrongful dismissal at a certain age or refusing to allow an individual the opportunity of over time.
Sumo the Micky Quinn
Well-Known Member
I guess to the government. As has been mentioned, nothing is covering compensation, just court costs of £7,000.
Nick
Administrator
That's the sickening bit really. I know that money won't bring those people back or make it any better but "pay the government loads" and that's that. Put it to charities or somewhere it will make an actual difference.
Covstu
Well-Known Member
Difficult one isn’t it. Sainsbury’s had their store rammed in, people lost their lives and the government benefit for it. Just feels like it’s a stealth tax of some sort!
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
But this will just lead to court cases of discrimination of age. I agree to a policy of drivers over retirement age having to have annual tests/health checks but to just automatically set an age limit is opening a can of worms.
Btw, I'm certainly not siding with the company - I think the fine is pathetic in terms of their turnover and profit, and some form of corporate manslaughter verdict and jail term for directors should have been handed down.
Houchens Head
Fairly well known member from Malvern
I worked as a bus driver for West Midlands Travel back in 1982 - 90. (I still have my old driver's badge!). All duties were meticulously timed so that every driver worked within the legal hours. The inspector in charge of dishing out overtime or Private Hire duties was also meticulous in his job. Even if a days overtime meant you working just ONE minute past your time, you would be refused. They were extremely strict. That was his only duty - checking drivers hours. I remember him asking me if I'd work a duty for National Coaches one Saturday as they'd overbooked their seats. I did a Cambridge run, calling at different towns on the way. When I reached Cambridge, they wanted me to carry on to Skegness! I explained that I would run out of driving hours, but was told "Don't worry, we'll sort that out."! Stuff that! Needless to say I just returned back to Coventry with an empty vehicle! So it does go on, or at least it used to! By the way, not sure about these days, but tachographs weren't a legal requirement in "service" vehicles i.e. town buses. We only had to use them if we were on a Private Hire.
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
It’s like the allergies programme on rough traders. The companies are money driven and sod safety. The fine should be 50% of their profits and individuals who ignored clear health and safety processes should be punished
covcity4life
Well-Known Member
such a sad day
im sure the bus driver didnt do it on purpose and if he was in tip top shape would have sorted it out over the 100 yards
dementia must have played its part
im sure the bus driver didnt do it on purpose and if he was in tip top shape would have sorted it out over the 100 yards
dementia must have played its part
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
After the people involved and their families, I also feel some sympathy for the driver. Having had members of the family suffer from dementia, the individuals are usually the last people to realise and the hardest part is trying to tell them in a kind way that you think they should be tested. Yes, he should never have been in the drivers seat but a lot of that burden in this instance should be on the managers etc. IMO
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
Yep criminal burden