The never ending court story (9 Viewers)

[duffer]

I would guess they're doing nothing for the moment except waiting to see what SISU will do.
I'd guess there is still 7 months before pressure starts to mount from the league to confirm the venue.

I take your point but I don't think they'll want to leave it that late. I honestly believe, regardless of which side of the fence you sit on, what we're seeing here is Wasps and the council getting their PR retaliation in early.

To reverse this, don't get me wrong, SISU have been nothing but a disaster for this club - and owners who focussed more on getting their partners onside than taking them to court would almost certainly have had more success here. But they're not the only ones to blame for where the club find themselves, or where they might end up.

 

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[chiefdave]

Deal or no deal makes no difference to the possibility of legal action. Threatening not to do a deal unless legal actions are dropped is effectively blackmail.

Exactly. I have no idea why people struggle to see this.

It's not as if its uncommon in the business world for companies to work together on a day to day basis while the lawyers and executives are taking each other to court.

 

[Captain Dart]

I take your point but I don't think they'll want to leave it that late. I honestly believe, regardless of which side of the fence you sit on, what we're seeing here is Wasps and the council getting their PR retaliation in early.

To reverse this, don't get me wrong, SISU have been nothing but a disaster for this club - and owners who focussed more on getting their partners onside than taking them to court would almost certainly have had more success here. But they're not the only ones to blame for where the club find themselves, or where they might end up.

Last season the deal was done by end Feb.

 

[chiefdave]

I believe Oxford pay £500,000/year + costs to Kassam ( well, his Firoka Group actually) for a 3-sided stadium. Could be the going rate?

Yep, that's definitely the deal we want to be modelling things on.

United owner Sumrith 'Tiger' Thanakarnjanasuth and managing director Niall McWilliams told supporters on Saturday they were considering alternative venues to play their home matches, largely because of a fraught relationship with the stadium company.

Now Mr Kassam has said the disagreements have been brought on by the club, and until they pay him the money he believes his company is owed – a figure he claims is in excess of £600,000 – there will be no chance of a reconciliation.

 

[duffer]

Whatever happens at some point next summer the rental contract ends and CCFC right to even enter the site ceases. Wasps don't have to make any effort, or formally evict CCFC. The arrangement simply ceases to exist with no legal recourse for CCFC. There is no option contract to renew

Whole load of brinksmanship going on and PR on all sides cranking up to use an expression from here. They are all positioning themselves to play the cards they have.

I am sure ideally Wasps want CCFC there, (financial and reputationally) i am also pretty certain that the CCFC owners want the club to be there (again financial & reputational). Wasps want the cash flow and SISU need to maintain asset value (the team doing well will have favourably affected that to some degree but the SISU get out relies on being able to sell a viable CCFC on doesnt it?)

Going to be hard to prove deliberate action if the contract simply comes to its natural end. There is no legal right to demand renewal

Could the council have inserted a clause to guarantee CCFC right to be there - unlikely, just think of the implications for any landlord of that - nice idea though. It could also be the case that it would have put a duty on CCFC to remain and that didnt tie in with SISU thinking at the time when attempting to apply pressure (somewhere in my memory i thought it was said it was CCFC that wanted a 2+2 deal)

We are back where we have been for a decade, with a who has the biggest balls contest............ and the CCFC fans in the middle the ones to really suffer made even worse because for the first time in ages we have a team, succeeding, worth seeing and being proud of

Always good to hear from you OSB. I am politely unconvinced though.

Would it really have been that difficult to covenant the sale with a clause that the club must at least be offered an annual rental agreement at terms of x + RPI, perhaps dependent on division (regardless of what SISU wanted at the time)?

Truthfully, if I was in the Council and I genuinely cared about the future of the club in the city, then I'd have moved heaven and earth to get that sort of protection in there. Without it, the claim that the council made about the criteria for the sale being that CCFC wouldn't suffer as a result is entirely bogus, imho.

 

[fatso]

My thanks mate, but again, what frivolous reason? There's a contract for the rugby club to supply the facility, and the football club to pay the rent due. it's pretty straightforward and there's all sorts of protection for landlord in law and against his costs. You'll note that SISU, even with all of their legal experts, didn't take ACL to court to avoid paying the rent on some made up contractual grounds, they just stopped paying the rent and when it did get to court were subsequently wound up.

The rugby club is already financially distressed; their fans, sponsors, investors and other tenants aren't going to be best pleased if CCFC walk away, and it'll make the council look pretty bad too!

Any legal case dosnt have to be centred around the lease, sisu could use any reason to go to court, obstruction of business, restriction of trade, or whatever they could come up with. My point is, would the £100k rent (or whatever) be worth the risk of dealing with sisu?
If wasps are in so much debt that they need the rental that much, then they will proberbly end up screwed sooner or later anyway.

 

[duffer]

Any legal case dosnt have to be centred around the lease, sisu could use any reason to go to court, obstruction of business, restriction of trade, or whatever they could come up with. My point is, would the £100k rent (or whatever) be worth the risk of dealing with sisu?
If wasps are in so much debt that they need the rental that much, then they will proberbly end up screwed sooner or later anyway.

None of which would stand up in court, or probably even get there. If you're not paying your lease, and you get kicked out, you're never going to be able to claim those reasons. Like it or not there were some points in some very technical law which merited argument for the JRs, hence them going so far. If you turn up at court and say my landlord's preventing me doing my business at his premises because I'm not paying him rent, then what you're going to hear is "Next!".

 

[duffer]

Last season the deal was done by end Feb.

Which negates my point not a jot. This is brinksmanship, as OSB says, and this is Wasps and the Council getting their PR in early in case it all goes wrong.

 

[NortonSkyBlue]

OSB is correct, if Wasps want us out they have to do the sum total of absolutely nothing.
If our owners want to stay they have to demonstrate that they have ceased litigation.
For Wasps it is a no lose situation, a spiky tenant moves out. It may cost a small amount but the hassle goes away.
135 years of history and we can muster barely 10000 of our supporters to watch us play. They average 15000 in a poorish season to date.
Our apathy is lamentable, 4 years in our city and it's theirs....
Whoever is to blame is irrelevant, it's gone, what the owners need to do is "kiss the ring" and secure a future at the Ricoh however unpalatable that may be in terms of pride.
OSB also stated we have a team to be proud of and I agree but a month ago pride in the team was a hard thing to come by on here.its amazing what four wins can do! Short termism rules.
The medium and long term at the Ricoh can only be achieved with the co-operation of Wasps or Sisu had better have an ace up their sleeve.
Those that say that a deal is in Wasps interest would do well to remember our history. "The club would never move us out of our city"

 

[chiefdave]

Are you really buying this “We want to talk to the landlords as the Ricoh was always the preferred option” cobblers on the night before the last court case?
You are always accusing the trust and other fans groups cranking things up, but isn’t that what Ccfc (Sisu) done on that occasion to get the fans onside just in case?

You only think that's cobblers if you haven't been following the situation since Fisher was spouting off years ago about a new stadium being plan A.

Since our return we've had Anderson saying he wants to draw a line under everything and start afresh on a long term deal to keep the club at the Ricoh. Talks were held and both Anderson and Wasps said they were progressing well before Wasps abruptly walked away and refused to talk further.

Interestingly after he left us Anderson gave an interview talking about his attempts to takeover a club, could he have been referring to us as he hasn't been involved at any other club? When asked which club it was he said "Which club? I can not say. Not a very big and well-known team. There you can change little. A modest team, for example in League One or League Two in England." Just maybe Wasps pulling the plug on those talks cost us the chance of being rid of SISU.

When Boddy came in he also held talks with Wasps over a multi-year deal and was expecting to announce its successful conclusion prior to Xmas last year only for Wasps to again walk out withdrawing the proposed deal before refusing to talk further until things became critical and they agreed a one year deal.

At the end of the day nobody involved day to day at the club can stop the legals, that's down to the clubs owners and they couldn't care less if we have nowhere to play next season.

 

[thekidfromstrettoncamp]

Even if Wasps were to forget the legal action (I don't think they will )and said anytime now that the fee for the use of the Stadium next season would be £400.000 take it or leave it . After all the deal they got this year was generous . Let it be known early so they have got plenty of time to say they agree or they are off to Timukto or wherever by giving them a early deadline . What would Sisu's reaction be?

 

[Nick]

What is generous about it? I'm not saying it isn't but but interesting to know what's so generous.

 

[thekidfromstrettoncamp]

Was the deal not £100,000? if so I think that was generous some of the club who do not own their own ground would think it was . I don't think it will be that next season.

 

[Nick]

Was the deal not £100,000? if so I think that was generous some of the club who do not own their own ground would think it was . I don't think it will be that next season.

In what way?

 

[thekidfromstrettoncamp]

Having the use of the stadium for up to 30 or however many games we will play this season on it don't you think is generous? By the way what do you think Sisu's reaction would be?

 

[Nick]

Having the use of the stadium for up to 30 or however many games we will play this season on it don't you think is generous? By the way what do you think Sisu's reaction would be?

It's not just 100k though is it?

 

[thekidfromstrettoncamp]

So i'm wrong then how much was it?

 

[Nick]

So i'm wrong then how much was it?

There are also matchday fees (rightly) to cover costs for putting on games. It isn't just a flat 100k

 

[thekidfromstrettoncamp]

Was It not generous or not? Yes or no will do.

 

[Nick]

Was It not generous or not? Yes or no will do.

What have you compared it to to decide it is? That's what I was trying to figure out.

 

[thekidfromstrettoncamp]

Other clubs cant find details right now off to bed but I will say it wont be that cheap next time.

 

[Nick]

Other clubs cant find details right now off to bed but I will say it wont be that cheap next time.

Which clubs? Are the arrangements comparable?

 

[stupot07]

Other clubs cant find details right now off to bed but I will say it wont be that cheap next time.

Other clubs who rent their ground rent the whole stadium 365 days, have offices, shops there, can earn rent from selling advertising, car parking, conferences, weddings, etc. And control their f&bs, etc. We literally have access for 6-7 hours, 25-30 days per year, we're paying on costs to match day costs, having to pay wasps for supplying stewarding, and I would guess we have to pay additional fee for any games outside the agreement, u23's etc.

I'm not doubting that it will go up, but I can't see if going up by much.

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[NortonSkyBlue]

Other clubs who rent their ground rent the whole stadium 365 days, have offices, shops there, can earn rent from selling advertising, car parking, conferences, weddings, etc. And control their f&bs, etc. We literally have access for 6-7 hours, 25-30 days per year, we're paying on costs to match day costs, having to pay wasps for supplying stewarding, and I would guess we have to pay additional fee for any games outside the agreement, u23's etc.

I'm not doubting that it will go up, but I can't see if going up by much.

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On what basis can't you see it going up much?
Let's say that Wasps triple the rent and double the match fees where does that leave us? in the same place as if they times the rent by ten and match day fees by four. We haven't got any alternative, its take it or leave it. Squeezed by the balls comes to mind.
I hope you are right though.

 

[stupot07]

On what basis can't you see it going up much?
Let's say that Wasps triple the rent and double the match fees where does that leave us? in the same place as if they times the rent by ten and match day fees by four. We haven't got any alternative, its take it or leave it. Squeezed by the balls comes to mind.
I hope you are right though.

I really don't see their hand being as strong as everyone thinks. They need us financially and politically, which is why their pr game has started.

I think you've overstated in Your previous post that they have taken over the city, they are averaging 15k fans in the same way we had 28,343 fans at the Accrington game last season.

I can see it going to maybe £150-200k, but no more.

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[NortonSkyBlue]

I really don't see their hand being as strong as everyone thinks. They need us financially and politically, which is why their pr game has started.

I think you've overstated in Your previous post that they have taken over the city, they are averaging 15k fans in the same way we had 28,343 fans at the Accrington game last season.

I can see it going to maybe £150-200k, but no more.

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Financially I am not sure, politically I take your argument but as noted in my previous post all they have do is nothing and we are out. They have set our masters a challenge to stop the legals and if we don't then it is our/Sisu failure that has brought us to this conclusion. Politically this is a soft landing for them.
If they back track then yes you are correct that they do indeed have a need for our presence.

 

[Nick]

Financially I am not sure, politically I take your argument but as noted in my previous post all they have do is nothing and we are out. They have set our masters a challenge to stop the legals and if we don't then it is our/Sisu failure that has brought us to this conclusion. Politically this is a soft landing for them.
If they back track then yes you are correct that they do indeed have a need for our presence.

Would everybody just ignore that they said there would be no deal this season while the legals are ongoing? That they entered into talks while legals were ongoing last season, stopped talks blaming legals and then did a deal anyway?

Like you say, it's a soft landing because they just need to say "It was SISU" and nobody has an issue with them at all about anything.

 

[Adge]

Would everybody just ignore that they said there would be no deal this season while the legals are ongoing? That they entered into talks while legals were ongoing last season, stopped talks blaming legals and then did a deal anyway?

Like you say, it's a soft landing because they just need to say "It was SISU" and nobody has an issue with them at all about anything.

But it is Sisu isn’t it (and they are not alone) that ARE to blame for the current situation as the legals carried on and that was the statement from Wasps.
Another “option” was floated last year aswell about the BPA but John Sharpe (I think it was at the time) expressed that while Sisu were in charge he wouldn’t entertain it. Coincidence?:emoji_thinking:

 

[Nick]

But it is Sisu isn’t it (and they are not alone) that ARE to blame for the current situation as the legals carried on and that was the statement from Wasps.
Another “option” was floated last year aswell about the BPA but John Sharpe (I think it was at the time) expressed that while Sisu were in charge he wouldn’t entertain it. Coincidence?:emoji_thinking:

Think you missed the point.

It isn't saying SISU aren't to blame for the legals, it is saying that Wasps will just use the "It is SISU" line which means they can do what they want. It was the same when they were going to take over the Higgs. It's a bargaining tool.

 

[Adge]

Think you missed the point.

It isn't saying SISU aren't to blame for the legals, it is saying that Wasps will just use the "It is SISU" line which means they can do what they want. It was the same when they were going to take over the Higgs. It's a bargaining tool.

Yes, I get that. Just throwing that into the mix too about BPA. It seems that nobody will now entertain them (Sisu) except lawyers of course.

 

[Nick]

Yes, I get that. Just throwing that into the mix too about BPA. It seems that nobody will now entertain them (Sisu) except lawyers of course.

Wasn't that said last year though before the renewal? Wasps said they wouldn't entertain it and then it was renewed.

That's not saying everybody loves them. Just that a lot of it is just bargaining.

 

[NortonSkyBlue]

Would everybody just ignore that they said there would be no deal this season while the legals are ongoing? That they entered into talks while legals were ongoing last season, stopped talks blaming legals and then did a deal anyway?

Like you say, it's a soft landing because they just need to say "It was SISU" and nobody has an issue with them at all about anything.

I am sure our fans will have a lot to say but they will also aim their fire on our masters again.
We need someone to blink first.

 

[Nick]

I am sure our fans will have a lot to say but they will also aim their fire on our masters again.
We need someone to blink first.

I'm not saying there shouldn't be any fire aimed at them though. I am just pointing out how easy it is and has been for Wasps and others to direct the fire.

 

[NortonSkyBlue]

I'm not saying there shouldn't be any fire aimed at them though. I am just pointing out how easy it is and has been for Wasps and others to direct the fire.

Couldn't agree more, its men against boys.

 

[Nick]

Couldn't agree more, its men against boys.

They have been allowed to though, all they need to do is stand there pointing to SISU and the fire is diverted.

It was the same with the Higgs stuff, Wasps moving here in the first place.

It's piss easy and so blatant.