Strength In Depth (4 Viewers)
- Thread starter Magwitch
- Start date
skybluegod
Well-Known Member
Agree in parts with this, but do think it is a bit harsh. Not many sides at this level have a good quality goalkeeper back-up. Hell not many teams in the top divisions do. When second choice premier league keepers are released, they are lucky if they end up at a championship team.
Andreu is struggling and I agree he is the most expendable, but we also haven't had a rut in the season yet where we have had to change the way we play, Andreu might be part of a plan B.
Ogogo, to me seems like a player that needs a run in the team to really get going but doesn't seem to fit in with the style of play at the moment, just seems a strange signing atm. But is clearly a talented player.
No reason to think Jones would be back sooner, its a year long injury and he got injured in November last year, he still adds strength in depth.
Agree Hiwula isn't a left mid, but is doing the job, and has been part of a 6 game unbeaten run playing out of position, still adds strength.
Biamou, we won't really know if he can step up. I don't think he will fire us to promotion, but he would be a good replacement for JCH.
Baka, hard for any player to get into a team that has gone 6 unbeaten, his chance will come. Does he have quality to early to judge, but MR seems to think he is good enough from what he has said?
It depends what you consider strength in depth. In terms of do we have someone as good as the first team waiting in the wings, not in every position, but do we have strength in depth relative to previous years and compared to other teams probably.
I do agree I don't think we will get promotion this year, have said so from the start, i think the team needs experience, and time together, next year I think with 1/2 additions, we would be challenging.
SkyBlueCRJ
Well-Known Member
Harsh? Did you see the Blackpool game?. He's a terrible keeper at this level and I for one would be terrified about having him between the sticks on a regular basis.
I'll admit Ogogo needs game time but at what cost? If he plays like he did against Accrington all season there's little point in having him start as he's not going to help us win games. It's all well and good saying a player needs game time but if they can't bare any effect on the game then where's the logic in starting him? At the moment I see him nothing more than a passenger unfortunately. Hopefully he gets his match sharpness back as I had high expectations when he came in.
JJ is a 'we'll see' scenario. Unfortunately we don't see him day in day out at training so only the playing staff will have an idea about his full return date. Even so, bare in mind the psychological trauma of an injury such as an ACL tear so I'd still be mindful about expectations when he initially returns on a weekly basis.
He's scoring goals which is great but before he needs to make more of an impact (cliché I know) because as seen in the Accrington game we can't rely on Thomas to do all the work.
Unfortunately you can't predict that anymore than I can though. It took time for Biamou to get to grips with League Two and considering how long he'll be out of the game that step up is going to be twice as hard next season.
Wasn't he dropped initially though? MR only had nice words to say after the Charlton game. He publicly tore into him prior to that so I'd check your facts first.
Well I consider strength in depth by it's literal definition. Not just in one area of the pitch, which is what we have at the moment. (defence). Few clubs at our level have strength in depth though otherwise realistically they wouldn't be in League One. Hence why I also disagree with the statement as surely if we had strength in depth we'd be further up the table than we already are and wouldn't be losing to the likes of Arsenal U21s? I'm just finding people are confusing the two definitions of having depth in the squad and having strength in depth. For instance one poster claimed that previously we'd had a small squad and this is an improvement so surely that qualifies us as having strength in depth. I'm not saying it isn't an improvement but just because we've brought in a host of players that doesn't necessarily qualify us as having strength in depth as anyone can have a big squad, we've just improved on the squads we've previously had in the past.
Like I said we've got a squad for the future, which on our budget is all MR can really provide.
skybluegod
Well-Known Member
Wasn't saying the Harsh bit about O'brien, I meant the post in general is too harsh. I too don't rate him, but my point still stands almost no clubs have a keeper just as good as back up.
Agree but it's about balancing short-term and long term isn't it? If as we both say we don't see promotion happening, then surely Ogogo, getting a run will not matter too much?
I agree but he's still a quality player, who can affect games even when not 100%. Might not be back to full speed for another 2/3 months, but doesn't mean his quality is gone.
Thing is Thomas has little end product, but influences the game more, but Hiwula has end product but doesn't influence the game as much. It's the limitations of footballers at this level.
Isn't every player dropped? He ripped into him after the Blackpool game, i have no need to check my facts, Robins has said on MULTIPLE occasions, that Bakayoko needs to work on some stuff on the training ground and if he can apply that he will be a good striker. I trust Robins more than I trust you...
There is no such thing as a literal definition for it though? Strength in depth is subjective as just because you don't rate some players, doesn't mean they don't have quality. All of your arguments against it are on the back of fitness, which is nothing to do with the quality of player just the condition.
Thomas/Jones
Kelly/Ogogo
Doyle/Bayliss
Hiwula/Shipley
Chaplin/Andreu
JCH/Bakayoko
The two positions I would question on quality is LM-and St. There is good quality replacements throughout the squad. Just need them to to be fit. That's the difference.
SkyBlueCRJ
Well-Known Member
I don't understand how you think my view is harsh when I'm merely stating facts, whereas you're just taking the glass half full approach?
But you can't simply say promotion isn't happening so it's fine to stick in a player that look's like he hasn't played in years though, otherwise MR is obviously going to get the backlash. Your POV is far too black and white and doesn't consider the variables. Where's the sense in throwing a player into the side that's unfit/out of form/rusty on the basis of: he might come good in 5/6 games. How does that benefit the team? I wouldn't mind if Ogogo made even one or two good runs or the odd half-decent pass but on Saturday he was beyond poor and the game bypassed him for the majority of the 90mins. Doesn't exactly bode well for the next match does it.
Of course he's a quality player I've not said otherwise. But my view in the summer remains the same, we should've brought in another winger as many had reservations about whether Shipley could make the step up and Allassani was never meant as a starter.
I agree but don't forget Hiwula is a striker, so obviously he's going to have more end product than Thomas. Hiwula's been on great scoring form but his lack of creativity again leaves us at risk to put the majority of dangerous play through the right side - which oppositions will soon figure out. Our only plan B is Shipley, who hardly exudes creativity does he.
Players are dropped due to lack of form? Baka wasn't performing so JCH came back into the side so I'm not sure what you're getting at in relation to the initial argument. So again I reiterate, perhaps a player for the future but question marks remain over whether he has the ability/consistency to start week in week out. Well I'd hope so, would be bizarre if you chose to put your faith in a SBT poster over our current manager. Yes it's difficult replacing players in a winning side and he's doing OK in the U23s but judging from performances this season he's a long way from commanding a starting spot ahead of JCH.
I don't understand your point surely that again confirms my argument then. Signing unfit players doesn't mean strength in depth does it whether the player possesses quality or not? Regardless I haven't based my argument on the back of fitness. Baka, O'Brien, Hiwula and Shipley are all fit the last time I checked?
Well it does. The literal definition is: If a team has strength in depth, it has a number of good extra players that it can use when necessary. Everything has a literal definition it's human perspective that alters that. IMO we don't have strength in depth as the majority of our reserve players (at the moment) aren't as good as the starting XI. Football is all about difference of opinion so I couldn't care less if you don't agree but I've given plenty of examples why that's the case. Disregarding my view by either listing the starting XI alongs with their respective back-ups, or effectively saying 'they're unfit so it doesn't count' doesn't make me change my mind unfortunately.
Skyblueweeman
Well-Known Member
The posts on this thread are far too long to keep my attention...
skybluegod
Well-Known Member
I haven't said that promotion is categorically not going to happen. but i believe it isn't so if the long term interest was to say, drop doyle, so instead of for the next month we play well, but in a year we have somebody who has played very little, we haven't managed to get him up to speed, and instead we play less effectively (POSSIBLY) for a month but are are playing better for the rest of this season and give a solid foundation for next year then it is worth it in my eyes. No you are saying it's black and white, how can a player get fit or gain form if he doesn't play? I forgot that sitting on the bench helped that so much! It's like any other business making short term decisions, and not worry about the long-term.
So your decision would be to block the pathway for Shipley so that he definitely never steps up, and also make the pathway for Allassani even more difficult in a years time?
Well no that's completely untrue End-product isn't goals, it's key passes, and assists too. Which Thomas lacks. Salah is a winger but has more end product than a striker in Firmino? You aren't going to get a player that is both amazing creatively, has end product and is solid defensive a s awing player at this level. If you get lucky you might get one for a month. It's about getting a balance across the team which we clearly have at the moment.
Why is he not able to command a starting spot? Has won us 5 points so far this season. JCH suits the system better, but you act as though if JCH is injured we have to play the same system. We don't he's a different type of player. He is good enough at this level, hence he has played his career at this level from the get-go, and 300,000 was spent on him.
Are you thick? It's nothing to do with signing unfit players? ~Players get injured that's what happens, Strength in depth- is about the quality of the player you have behind the first team, we clearly have that. Jones, Ogogo, Kelly, Andreu aren't? You have hand picked and added in Shipley suddenly to support your argument?
So exactly, your opinion is there isn't strength in depth. Others are that there is. But going off your definition no team in the world has strength in Depth. I don't know any tema in the world that has reserve players as good as first team players. That's why the first team players are starters and the reserves aren't.
robbiekeane
Well-Known Member
my kind of length of post
NortonSkyBlue
Well-Known Member
You are not stating facts, you are stating an opinion and I must admit that I am a little taken aback how black and white everything is in your world.
We are a point off the play offs, on a great run and something positive is happening. In a squad of 20 plus not all of them are going to be at the same place at the same time. This time last year Rod McDonald was THE man, after Christmas he was the weakest link, Bayliss was basically an unknown quantity, Jones was injured and our season was over, McNulty couldn't do much right and Burge, well he was Burge, a shit keeper, useless national league at best. Didn't turn out so bad.
After the first game most were getting Andreu's name tattooed on their dicks after his free kick and performance.
Its funny how Thomas is perceived as very good and his return is one goal, very few assists yet in a tenth of the time isn't that what Andreu has produced? Andreu is a square peg in a round hole at present.
Rose colored spectacles are one thing but a little perspective is required too
SkyBlueCRJ
Well-Known Member
None of your points make sense or you go off a complete tangent.
Your points as summarised:
1. Experiment on a monthly basis because promotion probably isn't happening this season so the fans will completely understand rotating sub-par playings into the Starting XI.
2. Bakayoko could fit in other systems. What systems are they then? Does it suit other players we currently have within the squad? Also apparently he cost £300,000. Not sure where you got that price tag from.
3. Apparently I'm thick because you believe we didn't sign an unfit Ogogo, despite the fact he was still recovering from injury upon joining us. Nor that Andreu or Jones were unfit at the start of the season. Also, because they were a both quality players before their injury that automatically means they'll be exactly the same player as they were before.....like FIFA.
4. I hate Jordan Shipley and Allassani and I hope they never develop or get game time. Again where have I said that? Do I think Shipley could've done with another season in League Two? Then probably. But you can't upheave half the squad to bring others in. You have to retain a core otherwise team chemistry will be effected. So where have I advocated for Shipley's 'pathway to the first team be blocked'? All I said was he isn't creative. Another comment you've conjured out of thin air.
4. You've reiterated my point that there isn't strength in depth but there is in defence. Thank you for that.
5. No team in the world has strength in depth. Would love to know the statistical analysis behind that. Regardless, where have I said that every single position has to have to players of identical quality? Obviously that isn't the case for any club but again, another comment out of thin air and you've clearly misinterpreted/not read my definition. I specifically said: it has a number of good extra players that it can use when necessary. At this time do we have a number of good extra players to use when necessary, yes in defence, IMO we don't in midfield or up front...this season. But, few clubs in the EFL possess the luxury of strength in depth unless they have the financial capacity behind them.
Thank you for confirming my thickness, I do appreciate it. Your argument seems to suggest managers give players opportunities to play for the sake of getting them playing. They play them because they've shown enough quality to start.
skybluegod
Well-Known Member
1) Not what I am saying is it, different between experimenting and putting one player in...
2) I'm not going to lay out a full page tacticl plan? Where is evidence he suits no system? The price tag is from reported sources both on Walsall end and Coventry- only have to check the CET.
3) Where have i said we didn't sign an unfit player? Never denied players being unfit. I deny the fact that it affects their quality.
4) Never said you hated either player, simply that you are blocking the pathway by overloading a position with 3 players in. Would bringing in a LW player have pushed Shipley down the pecking order?
5) I have said there is strength in depth. You said " IMO we don't have strength in depth as the majority of our reserve players (at the moment) aren't as good as the starting XI" so that means that they have to be AS good as the starting team. That means identical does it not? Please provide me a team that has a player for every position that is AS good as the the player he is replacing. I will wait
Where have i said play players for the sake of it? Please do quote where I have said that. I have said that the long-term outweighs the short-term. So in other words, if Robins sees fit to put in Ogogo on a run instead of say Doyle, to the detriment of 1/2 matches, but for long-term success then IMO that is correct.
SkyBlueCRJ
Well-Known Member
Tell me how I lack perspective then? I understand the view that players require game time to get back to full fitness and prime match sharpness? But when Andreu, as you've said, is a square peg in a round hole, is massively struggling for fitness, and has only shown flashes of the player fans perceived him to be, what are the positives in gifting him game time?
Football is unpredictable as you say but by your logic it's a crime to try and predict whether a player is going to come good or not.
The teams at the top of the table towards the end of the season are usually those who have a solid core of fringe players to take the place of those who inevitably suffer injury throughout the course of the season. IMO we don't have that now hence why I believe we won't be in and amongst the top six come May.
Exactly, surely being realistic and not getting carried away by thinking every player in the squad is a ballon d'or winner is in fact looking at the squad with a bit of perspective?
NortonSkyBlue
Well-Known Member
I haven't said a crime has been committed.
You actually stated that it was a fact whereas you are offering an opinion as you now state in your post above.
I happen to agree we won't be in the play offs come May but once again I am happy to be proved wrong.
I remember going to Leicester in 83 after we had beaten the great Liverpool side 4-0 to go 4th and getting a 5-1 hammering and going on a run that ended on the last day of the season avoiding relegation. Players that were considered excellent pre Christmas were suddenly poor lacking confidence and cohesion.
Why do I share this salutary tale with you? It wouldn't surprise me if we were to go on such a run this season but it would astonish me if we were to continue getting the results that we have been. Progress is being made evidently and I do hope that my negativity is crushed by our positive results.
SkyBlueCRJ
Well-Known Member
1) Not what I am saying is it, different between experimenting and putting one player in...
2) I'm not going to lay out a full page tacticl plan? Where is evidence he suits no system? The price tag is from reported sources both on Walsall end and Coventry- only have to check the CET.
3) Where have i said we didn't sign an unfit player? Never denied players being unfit. I deny the fact that it affects their quality.
4) Never said you hated either player, simply that you are blocking the pathway by overloading a position with 3 players in. Would bringing in a LW player have pushed Shipley down the pecking order?
5) I have said there is strength in depth. You said " IMO we don't have strength in depth as the majority of our reserve players (at the moment) aren't as good as the starting XI" so that means that they have to be AS good as the starting team. That means identical does it not? Please provide me a team that has a player for every position that is AS good as the the player he is replacing. I will wait
Where have i said play players for the sake of it? Please do quote where I have said that. I have said that the long-term outweighs the short-term. So in other words, if Robins sees fit to put in Ogogo on a run instead of say Doyle, to the detriment of 1/2 matches, but for long-term success then IMO that is correct.
The actual figure according to posters on SBT was £70K up front with the rest add-ons. Rising to £200,000 was reported amongst football journo's at the time. If Bakayoko doesn't fit in our current system, he won't play unless he can develop himself into the player MR wants. When teams usually train and learn 2-3 formations why would himself and AV waste precious time trying to teach brand new formations to the squad for the sake of Bakayoko?
I'm failing to understand your point about Shipley. With Thomas, an injured Jones, Allassani who was intended as a development player/sporadic first team player and the potential new signing that still leaves a spots vacant. How would he have been shoved down the pecking order anymore than he already has been by Hiwula being put out on the left? It's up to Shipley to drive his way into the first team or take his chance when given the opportunity.
You really are scraping the barrel to form a coherent argument aren't you. Firstly, you're misinterpreting my words. The majority aren't as good as those in the starting XI? But haven't I said that to comply with the literal definition of 'strength in depth' a squad has to possess a number of good extra players that it can use when necessary? Secondly, I've never said a team in the world has a team that contains equally talented players? I've even got the quote here: Where have I said that every single position has to have to players of identical quality? Obviously that isn't the case for any club. Again you're misinterpreting strength in depth....
That's the argument I've interpreted in the first line, although it read awfully so god knows. I interpreted it as: if we don't mix it up and give players their chance then we'll suffer in the long term. But again I don't understand that as surely it's up to the players to seize their chance. Also with regards to injured players or players who lack fitness, players are put on fitness programs and get some form of match sharpness back in U23 games. If an 'unfit' player isn't up to scratch by the end of the season it's not down to the lack of game time. It's because they aren't doing enough in training or in development games to show the manager that they deserve to start. You've created a complete scenario to back up your point and it's completely illogical and just isn't what happens in football.
SkyBlueCRJ
Well-Known Member
But it is a fact that O'Brien isn't up to the standard that this league requires and it is a fact that throwing unfit players into the squad will cause the team to suffer as a whole. MR wanted to bring in a new goalkeeper this season and I guarantee it wasn't simply down to the fact that he thought LOB needed more game time. Similarly, when I stated you cannot simply throw in an unfit player into the starting XI to 'give him some game time'. How is that not a fact? Whilst I have offered opinion but i've also spoken in facts. You seem to be just blatantly choosing to ignore the obvious.
This season will probably be similar to last. We'll go on positive runs and we'll go on negative runs. But back to the initial point. It's those who are consistent throughout the season who usually have strength in depth within their respective squads. Obviously some are lucky as well (Accrington last season) but it's a rule of thumb.
better days
Well-Known Member
Andreu has apparently had a minor issue unconnected with his ACL injury which has kept him out of recent games
Hopefully he'll be back shortly
JJ's return was going well until he had to miss several games a few weeks back when he was unwell
He's over that now and has made several appearances from the bench and managed 90 minutes against a tough QPR U23 side including several first team players on Monday and got better as the game went on
Hopefully he'll be back shortly
JJ's return was going well until he had to miss several games a few weeks back when he was unwell
He's over that now and has made several appearances from the bench and managed 90 minutes against a tough QPR U23 side including several first team players on Monday and got better as the game went on
skybluegod
Well-Known Member
Posters on SBT/ So people who know nothing. No Journalists actually close to both clubs reported 300K, so I know which sources to trust. But please feel free show me reporters that said 70K? Yes thank you you confirmed what i said, robins said he needs to work on the training ground. Where have i said they would be brand new formations, as you say they learn 2/3 to use fluidly, one of which Bakayoko will fit into, they won't all base around JCH.
Hiwula was brought in as a LW, Robins then afterwards said that he saw him as a striker, only to then put him at LW. Why bring in a player that is only going to useful until Jones is fit? I doubt anybody we brought in would be as good as Jones, so why limit his minutes further and then take longer to get him fit? Your transfer policy seems to be similar to Pressley.
Nope you just keep making really stupid points? You also said what i quoted " IMO we don't have strength in depth as the majority of our reserve players (at the moment) aren't as good as the starting XI" You are avoiding this comment because it proves what i said. That is where you have said that players have to be of the same quality? I have answered that question? Do you need it a third time?
Again I haven't said mix-it up, i have said if Robins thinks it is worth it. No if you had ever seen an u23's game you would see it in no way reflects a first team game. If you think it does you are even more far gone than i thought.
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
All the criticism Andreu has had on here but some stats the other day outlined how he was a dangerous passer and definitely creative. Plenty of people on here just can't read the game imo
SkyBlueCRJ
Well-Known Member
Both clubs' reported 300K? Where has either said this when it was undisclosed. Plus, you do realise the up front fee would be nowhere near such a figure?
You said here: but you act as though if JCH is injured we have to play the same system. Tell me what system he'd work in then because he already doesn't really fit into our current two formations?
What am I avoiding and what am I stating that's so stupid, please enlighten me? You're completely delusional there's little point debating this when you're acting like a child throwing pathetic insults about because you know for a fact you're speaking utter drivel.
skybluegod
Well-Known Member
Do you struggle to read. JOURNALISTS close to both clubs reported it. I didn't say it was an upfront fee? It's likely in installments and based on appearances and goals scored. Please provide your source for 70K?
Again I am not going to detail a full system to back a point I have a life, however you do realise a system isn't only related to a formation? it involves style of play?
Again avoiding this point, "IMO we don't have strength in depth as the majority of our reserve players (at the moment) aren't as good as the starting XI" You say AS good, so the reserves have to be same quality as the first team. Again please show me a team that has 11 reserve players as good as the first team?
SkyBlueCRJ
Well-Known Member
It's not a criticism of his ability. He's a talented player. But we've been through this scenario before with Joe Cole. Waiting for this 'marquee' player to start performing week in week out when in reality a question mark remains over his fitness all season. From having been involved in sport from school level to beyond university I've seen my fair share of injuries, including ACL ruptures/tears. I think it's actually more of a lack of understanding the effects of this type of injury has on a player both physically and psychologically, rather than possessing an ability or an inability to read the game.
If you believe that stats are everything then maybe it's you that struggles to read a game?
SkyBlueCRJ
Well-Known Member
Right so my journo's were wrong but yours were right. Okay then.
It's a turn of phrase. The fact you're hiding behind that one sentance shows how much bollocks you've spoken. Plus i said the majority. Excuse me if I didn't phrase it to your preference. You utter child.
skybluegod
Well-Known Member
No I am asking you provide evidence of your Journalists which you have still haven't done?
Since when is saying 'As good' a turn of phrase? One could argue that the majority of our squad does have strength in depth? Everywhere but GK/LM and Target man? 'You are a childish for resorting to insults' *Resorts to insults himself*
SkyBlueCRJ
Well-Known Member
You throw childish insults but I'm not allowed to call you a child? Right. Good logic there. I can't be bothered to find the journo's because I don't have an innate desire to be right but I know for a fact it's not 300K. Regardless, the upfront fee would be nowhere near the figures you or I are quoting.
You're more than entitled to your opinion, I've shot down every single point you've attempted to make but please continue to believe your wild fantasies. Enjoy your evening.
skybluegod
Well-Known Member
Please show my childish insults? Please provide your evidence if they are facts? I have agreed it woon't be all upfront, no transfer fee ever is.
Have you? You have come back with a response, but wouldn't say you have shot down any of the points so far? I shall do just that