Wasps 18/19FY Financial Results (7 Viewers)

[Liquid Gold]

Putting my finance hat on, those accounts show a loss making business struggling to make a success of playing professional rugby and owning the Ricoh Arena. The value placed on the Ricoh is completely subjective and strangely enough will always be just enough to meet whatever banking or other finance covenants happen to be in place. Most significantly for Wasps and for us, the business is completely dependent on a rich owner funding on-going loses. If he were to walk away, the whole thing would collapse. However, there is no evidence whatsoever that will happen in the foreseeable future. The impending need to successfully re-finance the Ricoh debt is a potential problem, but in reality there's always a way to do that, particulaly if the interest rate on offer to new investors is attractive enough.

Anyone hoping that the whole thing is going to go tits up, is being unrealistic. Rich men are proud men, and don't like to admit they've made mistakes. Perhaps we could play the long-game and hope he loses interest, but a total collapse of the Irish insurance market or his untimely demise appear to be the only likely game-changers.

Funnily enough, the worse Wasps' financial position, the less they need us. If Richardson is prepared to put £5-6m a year into Wasps, he's not desperate for £100,000 from us, is he? I would suggest we don't piss him off.

Rich men are generally not stupid men and wouldn't be happy to piss their fortune away on a property company with a Rugby club attached pissing money up the wall.

 

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[Captain Dart]

I fear it will be when Wasps bond payback is due in 2022 before anything much happens

 

[CCFC88]

Any danger that SISU see these results and see this a the correct time to try and starve Wasps of revenue by moving us elsewhere for a couple of years? 100k rent is a drop in their ocean of debt but could 30 x matchday revenue (their cut) and a reduction in naming rights appeal make a dent into their future fortunes?

 

[dazed&confused]

Rich men are generally not stupid men and wouldn't be happy to piss their fortune away on a property company with a Rugby club attached pissing money up the wall.

My comments are entirely those of an outsider looking in. If you know differently, fair enough.

 

[oldskyblue58]

At the moment buying 50% of the stadium would just mean taking on 50% of the debt.

Not quite correct. Depends what it is you buy in to. You have to look at the group situation and break it down

ACL owns the lease valued at £60m. That is given as security to the bond. However ACL owes £14.4m to Wasps Finance PLC not the full 34m. ACL had a turnover in 2017 of £9m. ACL also owns 100% of its subsidiary IEC Experience turnover £15m which deals with the events, hospitality F&B etc at the stadium (could be important for the SCMP)

Wasps holdings Limited owes Wasps Finance £19.4 for the bond finance plus what it owes Richardson £18.6m (unsecured)

In theory you could buy in to ACL without buying into all of the group debt. I would think anything paid would have to be offset against the bond debt, probably the debt of £14m owed by ACL first. That means financing costs for CCFC though and accepting a charge over the lease (a charge is not the same as an interest bearing loan). It is unlikely that Wasps would sell 50% or more and lose simple control

of course if you were showing that sort of long term commitment wouldnt it be easier to buy a long term term lease with access to income streams without taking on any of the Wasps debt? That way CCFC get an asset on its balance sheet and Wasps maintain asset value and income/bottomline. Plus if anything happens to Wasps Holdings, CCFC are on site and first in the "queue" without a share of the liabilities or group finances fall out

 

[oldskyblue58]

Any danger that SISU see these results and see this a the correct time to try and starve Wasps of revenue by moving us elsewhere for a couple of years? 100k rent is a drop in their ocean of debt but could 30 x matchday revenue (their cut) and a reduction in naming rights appeal make a dent into their future fortunes?

double edged sword though, would the fans wear playing outside of the city again? In which case SISU would damage the CCFC income just as much as the Wasps income. There is no great naming rights income at the moment and Wasps would lose the F&B etc profits they get now

So no i dont think that would be the plan

 

[dazed&confused]

Any danger that SISU see these results and see this a the correct time to try and starve Wasps of revenue by moving us elsewhere for a couple of years? 100k rent is a drop in their ocean of debt but could 30 x matchday revenue (their cut) and a reduction in naming rights appeal make a dent into their future fortunes?

I genuinely think we need them, more then they need us. There is definitely some PR value in having Coventry City at the Ricoh, but the matchday revenue we bring in is hardly a game changer. And if we were to skulk-off again, who's to say they couldn't find another tenant. SISU once assumed no one else would buy the Ricoh; it's not safe to assume Wasps couldn't find another team to replace us on 15-23 matchdays a year. Another Rugby Union club, a Rugby League club, an American Football club? And they might bring in more revenue.

The naming rights thing is a good point, but lets be realistic: we are a League One side with modest crowds in a city where football is not that big a deal. We aren't a huge commercial draw. Look at our shirt sponsor.

 

[Captain Dart]

I genuinely think we need them, more then they need us. There is definitely some PR value in having Coventry City at the Ricoh, but the matchday revenue we bring in is hardly a game changer. And if we were to skulk-off again, who's to say they couldn't find another tenant. SISU once assumed no one else would buy the Ricoh; it's not safe to assume Wasps couldn't find another team to replace us on 15-23 matchdays a year. Another Rugby Union club, a Rugby League club, an American Football club? And they might bring in more revenue.

The naming rights thing is a good point, but lets be realistic: we are a League One side with modest crowds in a city where football is not that big a deal. We aren't a huge commercial draw. Look at our shirt sponsor.

The financial benefit is being pretty much consumed by legal costs (assuming Wasps get about 50% costs of what they had to pay to defend the case, which roughly the percentage that CCC stated applied to the earlier JR). So the only benefit in keeping City on is loss of public goodwill and that won't be tested till next season.

 

[Covstu]

Putting my finance hat on, those accounts show a loss making business struggling to make a success of playing professional rugby and owning the Ricoh Arena. The value placed on the Ricoh is completely subjective and strangely enough will always be just enough to meet whatever banking or other finance covenants happen to be in place. Most significantly for Wasps and for us, the business is completely dependent on a rich owner funding on-going losses. If he were to walk away, the whole thing would collapse. However, there is no evidence whatsoever that will happen in the foreseeable future. The impending need to successfully re-finance the Ricoh debt is a potential problem, but in reality there's always a way to do that, particulaly if the interest rate on offer to new investors is attractive enough.

Anyone hoping that the whole thing is going to go tits up, is being unrealistic. Rich men are proud men, and don't like to admit they've made mistakes. Perhaps we could play the long-game and hope he loses interest, but a total collapse of the Irish insurance market or his untimely demise appear to be the only likely game-changers.

Funnily enough, the worse Wasps' financial position, the less they need us. If Richardson is prepared to put £5-6m a year into Wasps, he's not desperate for £100,000 from us, is he? I would suggest we don't piss him off.

But rich men also know when to quit,

 

[dazed&confused]

But rich men also know when to quit,

My comments are entirely those of an outsider looking in. If you know differently, fair enough.

 

[letsallsingtogether]

But rich men also know when to quit,

Why are Sisu still here then?

 

[letsallsingtogether]

Not quite correct. Depends what it is you buy in to. You have to look at the group situation and break it down

ACL owns the lease valued at £60m. That is given as security to the bond. However ACL owes £14.4m to Wasps Finance PLC not the full 34m. ACL had a turnover in 2017 of £9m. ACL also owns 100% of its subsidiary IEC Experience turnover £15m which deals with the events, hospitality F&B etc at the stadium (could be important for the SCMP)

Wasps holdings Limited owes Wasps Finance £19.4 for the bond finance plus what it owes Richardson £18.6m (unsecured)

In theory you could buy in to ACL without buying into all of the group debt. I would think anything paid would have to be offset against the bond debt, probably the debt of £14m owed by ACL first. That means financing costs for CCFC though and accepting a charge over the lease (a charge is not the same as an interest bearing loan). It is unlikely that Wasps would sell 50% or more and lose simple control

of course if you were showing that sort of long term commitment wouldnt it be easier to buy a long term term lease with access to income streams without taking on any of the Wasps debt? That way CCFC get an asset on its balance sheet and Wasps maintain asset value and income/bottomline. Plus if anything happens to Wasps Holdings, CCFC are on site and first in the "queue" without a share of the liabilities or group finances fall out

Thats what I was thinking buying onto the Ricoh not wasps.
Hopefully wasps go tits up City and Cov Rugger join forces both play at the Ricoh and turn the Butts into a training ground and stadium for the youth teams.
Bang job done.

 

[Grendel]

My comments are entirely those of an outsider looking in. If you know differently, fair enough.

How rich actually is he?

 

[Nick]

Thats what I was thinking buying onto the Ricoh not wasps.
Hopefully wasps go tits up City and Cov Rugger join forces both play at the Ricoh and turn the Butts into a training ground and stadium for the youth teams.
Bang job done.

In an ideal world maybe.

Would cover rugby want to? They seem to be building something themselves.

 

[dazed&confused]

How rich actually is he?

Good question.

 

[chiefdave]

How rich actually is he?

Can't remember who told me this so it could be totally wrong but I was told he made his money by selling his insurance company for £40m.

 

[Covstu]

Why are Sisu still here then?

Not their cash! Clearly feel they have unfinished business

 

[Covstu]

In an ideal world maybe.

Would cover rugby want to? They seem to be building something themselves.

At a rate that’s sustainable too....

 

[letsallsingtogether]

Not their cash! Clearly feel they have unfinished business

Isn't that how most football clubs are run?
Borrow money against the club to then give them the money.
Isn't that how The Glaziers do it at Man Utd and Abramovich at Chelsea?
So you actually don't put anything of your own into the club.

 

[fernandopartridge]

Isn't that how most football clubs are run?
Borrow money against the club to then give them the money.
Isn't that how The Glaziers do it at Man Utd and Abramovich at Chelsea?
So you actually don't put anything of your own into the club.

Abramovich has lent money to the club. The Glaziers bought the club by using it as collateral to finance. Two different things and neither like what you say. Man United can sustain themselves without borrowing.

 

[sb84]

Welcome back

Who has said they will be gone?

also quote...First post of the new season. How do you think the season is going?

Thank you and wishful thinking I suppose but if they did up sticks again I don't think all our stadium or ownership problems will be solved overnight.
Season much better than I expected it to be, honestly expected us to be bottom 6 but delighted to be proved wrong at present and hope we are still hanging around at the current position or better come the end of the season.
I don't post here very often at all but read quite frequently to keep up with ccfc news. I didn't realise I had to keep up with a minimum post count, sorry.
There seems to be an underlying issue with me as if you think I am some sort of Wasps mole on here, I am near to 50 years of age and been a city fan since 1984, was a highfield road regular but never been keen on ricoh atmosphere and other life commitments get in the way these days so hardly ever get to city home games. I was pissing about with charlie perms at Owen Owen in a kappa tracksuit on a Saturday morning and then going to HR whilst most on here hadn't been considered yet so I would say I am a reasonable city fan.

However I do have a Wasps connection so I am not an all out hater, but then I also have a connection to Leicester Tigers, England Rugby, England Football, Manchester City, New York city, Wolves, etc etc. Also sorry if this offends anyone (especially in an age where offence is easily taken by everyone it seems) but I like team sports and follow a few clubs. City take priority over all the above though as it was my childhood choice to support them and having lived my whole life Coventry, Leamington or Kenilworth it is the obvious choice.

 

[Nick]

also quote...First post of the new season. How do you think the season is going?

Thank you and wishful thinking I suppose but if they did up sticks again I don't think all our stadium or ownership problems will be solved overnight.
Season much better than I expected it to be, honestly expected us to be bottom 6 but delighted to be proved wrong at present and hope we are still hanging around at the current position or better come the end of the season.
I don't post here very often at all but read quite frequently to keep up with ccfc news. I didn't realise I had to keep up with a minimum post count, sorry.
There seems to be an underlying issue with me as if you think I am some sort of Wasps mole on here, I am near to 50 years of age and been a city fan since 1984, was a highfield road regular but never been keen on ricoh atmosphere and other life commitments get in the way these days so hardly ever get to city home games. I was pissing about with charlie perms at Owen Owen in a kappa tracksuit on a Saturday morning and then going to HR whilst most on here hadn't been considered yet so I would say I am a reasonable city fan.

However I do have a Wasps connection so I am not an all out hater, but then I also have a connection to Leicester Tigers, England Rugby, England Football, Manchester City, New York city, Wolves, etc etc. Also sorry if this offends anyone (especially in an age where offence is easily taken by everyone it seems) but I like team sports and follow a few clubs. City take priority over all the above though as it was my childhood choice to support them and having lived my whole life Coventry, Leamington or Kenilworth it is the obvious choice.

What's your point?

I'd say you have logged in to post because of your Wasps "link" rather than your CCFC "link".

Who has said in this thread that Wasps will be gone? All you have done is try to login and deflect away from people commenting on the finance situation.

 

[sb84]

here we go again, im a city fan and have no reason to deflect anything away from wasps, i logged in this time whilst having a cup of tea and thought i better clarify the situation regarding other users suspecting that i was a wasp mole. There are about 4 or 5 different threads going with regards to wasps issues but im not posting in there too.
I do hate villa and Leicester though just in case you need a bit more proof ; )

Can we just park this spat now as I dont have time to keep checking back in for this really. Please.

 

[Nick]

here we go again, im a city fan and have no reason to deflect anything away from wasps, i logged in this time whilst having a cup of tea and thought i better clarify the situation regarding other users suspecting that i was a wasp mole. There are about 4 or 5 different threads going with regards to wasps issues but im not posting in there too.
I do hate villa and Leicester though just in case you need a bit more proof ; )

Can we just park this spat now as I dont have time to keep checking back in for this really. Please.

Isn't a "spat" it's an observation that you logged in just to try and play it down by trying to disprove something nobody had actually said.