Thorn (12 Viewers)

[Astute]

Don't know why we keep going backwards on here?

But who is it that keeps looking back at mistakes made by AT? Mainly the ones that keep looking back are the ones saying what AT has done wrong. Nobody says AT has not made mistakes, but even after a win the same old thing gets brought up.

Isn't it strange how our results have got better once we got a couple of loans in to fill the positions we all knew we desperately needed filling? Is AT "still crap" and these players have saved us, or did he always know what he wanted from his team but didn't have the players to do what he wanted?

 

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[Otis]

Disagree.

These comments about what happened earlier in the season only come into response to posters coming on talking in terms of Thorn doing really well all season. Selective memories bring out the arguments.

 

[singers_pore]

We do badly; it's Sisu's fault, the players are inexperienced, squad's too small, playing too many kids, not Thorn's fault.
We do well; All praise be to Thorn.

The reason why many people feel that way is the context. Bearing in mind that we were only just above the relegation zone last season and since then we lost 4 of our better players (Westwood, King, Gunnarsson, Juke) with noone of equal quality coming into the club. That's why SISU are to blame if we do poorly and if we do well Thorn is seen as a miracle worker.

It would work the other way round too. Suppose we hadn't lost Westwood, King, Gunnarsson, Juke and instead we had invested in another 4 players of high quality. Then the reaction of many fans would have been:

We do badly; it's Thorn's fault. He had the money to improve the squad and yet we are no higher in the league than last year.
We do well; All praise be to SISU for funding the improvement in the playing sqaud.

Unfortunately, many of our fans lose sight of the context and therefore they do not correctly apportion the blame/credit between the owners and the manager.

 

[Astute]

For some reason the real vehement Thorn supporters (i.e those who become vitriolic and abusive if any criticism is thrown his way) are also the most fervent SISU out campaigners.

Show me anywhere where I have been in agreement with any SISU out threads. Yes, I would prefer to have new owners that have our best interests above anything else. Yes I would have prefered to have kept certain players. Yes we needed owners that would tell us the truth. Yes we need a little investment. Most of all we needed to sort out our finances.

We started going on a downwards slope about 20 years or more ago. Not SISU's fault. Their fault has been the way they have dealt with things. If they do to us at the end of this season like they did to us at the end of last season then they have to go. Our wage bill is now vastly reduced. We need to have a chance of competing. No more, no less

 

[Astute]

Disagree.

These comments about what happened earlier in the season only come into response to posters coming on talking in terms of Thorn doing really well all season. Selective memories bring out the arguments.

Doing well all season? Who has said that? Where have they said that? More like he has done well this season as a whole considering who he had at the start of the season and how he has kept them together believing we could get out of the shit. Losing a half decent squad that an experienced manager took us to near the bottom of this division, then some constantly going on about how much better we would be with an experienced manager. Losing more decent players as the season went on.

Selective memories on one side only? That would be funny if our situation was not so bad.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

The reason why many people feel that way is the context. Bearing in mind that we were only just above the relegation zone last season and since then we lost 4 of our better players (Westwood, King, Gunnarsson, Juke) with noone of equal quality coming into the club. That's why SISU are to blame if we do poorly and if we do well Thorn is seen as a miracle worker.

It would work the other way round too. Suppose we hadn't lost Westwood, King, Gunnarsson, Juke and instead we had invested in another 4 players of high quality. Then the reaction of many fans would have been:

We do badly; it's Thorn's fault. He had the money to improve the squad and yet we are no higher in the league than last year.
We do well; All praise be to SISU for funding the improvement in the playing sqaud.

Unfortunately, many of our fans lose sight of the context and therefore they do not correctly apportion the blame/credit between the owners and the manager.

Even in the context of SISU our terrible away form cannot be excused. Recent displays on the road are showing real improvement-and it shows Thorn is beginning to learn that damage limitation doesn't get results.

 

[Otis]

Astute, sorry, but if you look back at the posts when we lost a game and many of us said Thorn was to blame for the result (or partially to blame), there were a lot of people on here saying it wasn't Thorn's fault and 'look what he has to work with' and 'it's Sisu's fault.'

There was a fair bit of abuse at those who said Thorn was to blame and hints that people were idiotic for thinking it was Thorn's fault.

I don't have a selective memory. Earlier in the campaign I beleive Thorn's mistakes cost us points. This is the sticking point. No-one is saying Thorn has made no mistakes, correct. Lots saying that his mistakes haven't cost us games and points though. It's all about the perceived degree of the mistakes. Lots and lots of defence of the man when his mistakes in many opinions most certainly did cost us points.

I am happy he has turned things round. Long may it continue. We go down though and I will be pointing out on here that his mistakes earlier on in the season are part of the reason we have gone down.

 

[@richh87]

Well this is it in a nutshell.

As has been alluded to .....

We do badly; it's Sisu's fault, the players are inexperienced, squad's too small, playing too many kids, not Thorn's fault.

We do well; All praise be to Thorn.

It simply cannot be that when we lose that none of it is Thorn's fault but when we win it's all down to Thorn. He made lots of mistakes eariler in the season and we lost points and games because of it.
He is now minimising those mistakes and we are doing all the better.

Unfortunately bottom line is that he contributed to and is partially responsible for our so lowly position in the first place, but now fortunately for us he is turning things round and is now doing something positive in terms of getting us out of the situation.


Total lack of balance by many on here.

Win or lose the squad IS too small and DOES lack experience and this is SISU'S fault.

Andy Thorn isn't perfect but no manager is.

In response to Nick - the home record is very good under the circumstances and the away record very poor. Add them together and it leaves us a point inside the relegation zone.

In my opinion Thorn is doing a much better job than Donny, Bristol or Forest's managers - who all have players we can't afford and haven't had their squad dismantled by owners who couldn't give a toss about the future of their clubs.

I think we're all agreed anyway that if we stay up he's done well and should get another year. If we go down then it's perfectly understandable to. Change boss to wipe the slate clean. So let's allow the results to do the talking.

 

[Astute]

1) I don't think Sheffers was crap apart from the goal
2) What do you mean specifically by the diamond worked? It worked in terms of we won but it wasn't the greatest of performances, it was just ok.

To make a comment like that you were certainly not at the game. OK, the first half was not great. We competed, but they came at us a lot. The second half was a different ball game. I was in the Cardiff end with relatives of mine. They are season ticket holders. They said it was about the best 45 mins anyone had been all season against them. During the game we missed a pen, woodwork hit, 2 goals and other chances as well. Cody scored with a great header, but was an own goal. Cardiff scored against the run of play with a well taken goal in the second half.

Only did OK? :thinking about:How can you make such a comment when you were not there?

 

[@richh87]

The reason why many people feel that way is the context. Bearing in mind that we were only just above the relegation zone last season and since then we lost 4 of our better players (Westwood, King, Gunnarsson, Juke) with noone of equal quality coming into the club. That's why SISU are to blame if we do poorly and if we do well Thorn is seen as a miracle worker.

It would work the other way round too. Suppose we hadn't lost Westwood, King, Gunnarsson, Juke and instead we had invested in another 4 players of high quality. Then the reaction of many fans would have been:

We do badly; it's Thorn's fault. He had the money to improve the squad and yet we are no higher in the league than last year.
We do well; All praise be to SISU for funding the improvement in the playing sqaud.

Unfortunately, many of our fans lose sight of the context and therefore they do not correctly apportion the blame/credit between the owners and the manager.

Exactly! The Issue here is people ignoring the context. They make it as simple as win = good, lose =bad.

 

[torchomatic]

Look at us! On a good run of form catching up with Bristol City with a real chance of avoiding relegation and we're still arguing over the manager. It's not a black and white issue; on a bad run, it's all Thorn's fault or on a good run, it's all down to Thorn, etc.

We should be thankful he's learnt from past mistakes regarding formations and substitutions. He was learning his trade at the wrong time; with a struggling club. A baptism of fire.

There are two obvious camps, those who think he can't do any wrong and those who think he can't do anything right. We'll always have that until he's sacked. Then we'll start all over again with the next guy.

It's the way we are, sadly.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Could I make one thing clear here? Nobody 'hates' Thorn-there is no personal agenda against him whatsoever.

 

[Astute]

Astute, sorry, but if you look back at the posts when we lost a game and many of us said Thorn was to blame for the result (or partially to blame), there were a lot of people on here saying it wasn't Thorn's fault and 'look what he has to work with' and 'it's Sisu's fault.'

There was a fair bit of abuse at those who said Thorn was to blame and hints that people were idiotic for thinking it was Thorn's fault.

I don't have a selective memory. Earlier in the campaign I beleive Thorn's mistakes cost us points. This is the sticking point. No-one is saying Thorn has made no mistakes, correct. Lots saying that his mistakes haven't cost us games and points though. It's all about the perceived degree of the mistakes. Lots and lots of defence of the man when his mistakes in many opinions most certainly did cost us points.

I am happy he has turned things round. Long may it continue. We go down though and I will be pointing out on here that his mistakes earlier on in the season are part of the reason we have gone down.

AT HAS MADE MISTAKES. FULLY AGREED.

Can you read this Otis? Fed up of putting it and you not noticing The way you keep going on about it you would think we should have been in the playoffs at least and not the bookies favourites to be relegated this season and it is all the fault of AT

 

[torchomatic]

It's not just AT though is it? We'd be out of the relegation zone if Juke hadn't missed his penalty earlier on in the season. Or McSheff at Cardiff. They're mistakes too. It's not just the manager who makes them, but for some reason you seem obsessed with pointing out mistakes only made by AT.

Oh, and we're not down yet!

I am happy he has turned things round. Long may it continue. We go down though and I will be pointing out on here that his mistakes earlier on in the season are part of the reason we have gone down.

 

[Astute]

Look at us! On a good run of form catching up with Bristol City with a real chance of avoiding relegation and we're still arguing over the manager. It's not a black and white issue; on a bad run, it's all Thorn's fault or on a good run, it's all down to Thorn, etc.

We should be thankful he's learnt from past mistakes regarding formations and substitutions. He was learning his trade at the wrong time; with a struggling club. A baptism of fire.

There are two obvious camps, those who think he can't do any wrong and those who think he can't do anything right. We'll always have that until he's sacked. Then we'll start all over again with the next guy.

It's the way we are, sadly.

Miss out the line saying has learned from his mistakes. Nobody who can see he has learned from them never mentions he made them to start with

 

[torchomatic]

Maybe I should have mentioned the Blackpool game and his tactical errors too. No one's mentioned it for a 30 seconds or so.

Miss out the line saying has learned from his mistakes. Nobody who can see he has learned from them never mentions he made them to start with

 

[covcity4life]

nice to see torch talks about the 2 camps and then proves he is part of 1 of them

in other news i had a dream last night that thorn got tevez on loan and then sisu sacked him,i was not happy

 

[Otis]

Many though make it win- Thorn hero, lose - not his fault.


All I can suggest is that people trawl back through the posts for the likes of the Burnley and Blackpool games where clearly Thorn was at least partially to blame for our results and look at the posts defending Thorn to the hilt after the game and having no acceptance at all of him being at all at fault.

There for all to see.

 

[torchomatic]

Agree. But so are many instances of players fucking up, missing open goals, missing penalties, making defensive errors... We could start a thread of each player. They're partially to blame too. Everyone makes mistakes.

All I can suggest is that people trawl back through the posts for the likes of the Burnley and Blackpool games where clearly Thorn was at least partially to blame for our results and look at the posts defending Thorn to the hilt after the game and having no acceptance at all of him being at all at fault.

There for all to see.

 

[torchomatic]

I know, typical eh?

nice to see torch talks about the 2 camps and then proves he is part of 1 of them

in other news i had a dream last night that thorn got tevez on loan and then sisu sacked him,i was not happy

 

[Astute]

Many though make it win- Thorn hero, lose - not his fault.


All I can suggest is that people trawl back through the posts for the likes of the Burnley and Blackpool games where clearly Thorn was at least partially to blame for our results and look at the posts defending Thorn to the hilt after the game and having no acceptance at all of him being at all at fault.

There for all to see.

Just the same as when we looked at the games for March. How many were saying we would be lucky to get a couple of points? We are unbeaten in 5 games now. Sod it, lets keep bringing up games from previous months as we are doing better at the moment to what the vast majority thought. We have to as at the moment we have not a lot to moan at and my glass is still half empty

The year is now 2017. We are back in the prem and mid table. "Remember that game against Blackpool where AT didn't have a clue?"

 

[covcity4life]

for fucvk sake!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

otis is right
astute is right

so why cant you both learn from it and be balanced?????????

 

[Otis]

Not point in even discussing it with you if you are going to talk absolute tosh.


You telling me that on occasion we don't talk about that Charlton game and what might have been? Course we do. Do we still talk about that game when we beat Everton 4-1 to stay up? Course we do. Do we still on occasion talk about that Villa game that sent us down from the Prem? Course we do. Do we on occasion still talk about that Bristol City game that sent Sunderland down, course we do.

When people are talking about the games in March they are predicting and not analysing something that has happened. Two completely different things.


I will ask the question .... now seemingly that everyone is saying Thorn has made mistakes, can anyone who has been in total support of Thorn and the job he has been doing all season please tell me what mistakes they believe he has made?

Cos at the time of the big mistakes lots and lots of these people were not saying he had made these mistakes.

What mistakes do people think he has made? Interested to know.

 

[Otis]

for fucvk sake!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

otis is right
astute is right

so why cant you both learn from it and be balanced?????????

Exactly. I can hand on heart state that I always try and be balanced. When we lost to West Ham I didn't criticise Thorn. I accepted that West Ham just strengthend at half-time and we couldn't do anything about it. I praised him when we have won games and not criticised him with every loss.

Always try to be balanced. Thorn made some dreadful mistakes early on and is now getting things right. I will be delighted if we can just talk about the here and now. Looking forwards. We had the likes of a poster yesterday though coming out and saying that all AT haters have been proved wrong. It's that sort of post that irks people so.

No-one hates Thorn. No-one has been proved wrong. No-one has been proved right. He made mistakes he is now putting things right. Move on.

 

[Astute]

How can I be more balanced than say AT has made mistakes but has learned from them. I think it is well balanced to say he has done well considering losing nearly the whole team from last season and has made a decent chance of staying up from what he was left with. I don't keep going back to games where we did well and keep congratulating AT. I never go back to games where we were unlucky. I never say well done to AT. He is doing the job he is paid to do. Well done AT will come from me at the end of the season when we are safe, not before.

 

[Otis]

How can I be more balanced than say AT has made mistakes but has learned from them. I think it is well balanced to say he has done well considering losing nearly the whole team from last season and has made a decent chance of staying up from what he was left with. I don't keep going back to games where we did well and keep congratulating AT. I never go back to games where we were unlucky. I never say well done to AT. He is doing the job he is paid to do. Well done AT will come from me at the end of the season when we are safe, not before.

Don't take it so personally, Astute. No-one has said you.

All I can say is go back through the posts at the time. Anyone suggesting Thorn was making mistakes was shot down in flames by a lot of posters on here.

 

[covcity4life]

its the whole "yeah but" attitude that does my head in

yeh we have now agreed and can move on...............but i was right. get over it

Otis you are 100% correct and i can vouch that you are balanced.

 

[Otis]

Not what my wife says.

 

[Astute]

Otis is balanced, but biased in the way he is balanced

Balanced is looking at, and mentioning good and bad. If I got a quid for every time he mentions the Blackpool game we could all have a free season ticket next season

 

[covcity4life]

otis has been mr optimisitc last few months,always starting threads about where we can get points from etc

 

[Astute]

Don't take it so personally, Astute. No-one has said you.

All I can say is go back through the posts at the time. Anyone suggesting Thorn was making mistakes was shot down in flames by a lot of posters on here.

I remember it well. Some were saying it was all AT's fault. Why not look at players available sometimes when comments being made that subs not used.

The problem we have is some only look at AT's faults over the season. Some only look at the problems he has had all the season. If you look at the middle ground you still get placed into the "AT is doing well" or "AT mankes poor decisions" camps.

 

[We'll_live_and_die]

otis has been mr optimisitc last few months,always starting threads about where we can get points from etc

Hahahahahaha Where we won't get any points and are definitely relegated you mean.

He changes his mind more than a Prostitute drops her knickers.

This is a jokey comment

 

[Astute]

otis has been mr optimisitc last few months,always starting threads about where we can get points from etc

And Mr negative on wether AT is any good as a manager

 

[Otis]

Not at all.

Completely wrong. As is La Lucha.

I have said since Christmas we are going down. I said we would be in a relegation struggle before the season started and said since Christmas we are going down. How have I changed my mind can I ask?

 

[Astute]

otis has been mr optimisitc last few months,always starting threads about where we can get points from etc

You sure know a positive person when you see one