The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (80 Viewers)

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Seriously?

How can anyone have a honest an open debate when people are this biased.

Just for once, please please please can we have some common sense. Brexit might be bad for some things, but having to rely on English players in the premier league is really not one of them.

In 800 pages how many times has a remainer criticised the EU? Almost never.

It's extremely frustrating.

You asked for a drawback related to football and this is one. Decent English players already come at a premium and if we had tighter rules this would be exacerbated. How is it biased to point this out?

The bigger clubs would likely stockpile youngsters to an even greater extent than they already do, for the same reason.

 

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[CCFCSteve]

Agree with all other than payments to the EU. We will continue to pay into the EU until 2020 at least until the end of the transition period. This is backstop or no backstop. We had agreed to the EU budget until 2020 anyway so we're liable as such.

What happens after 2020 is debatable as nobody knows. It is all down to what is......or isn't negotiated.

That is part of the ‘divorce settlement’. I’m talking about the backstop which appears to be the major sticking point.

If people take a step back and read the detail in the withdrawal agreement and consider how things are likely to play out, whilst hardly perfect, it really isn’t as bad as both sides try to make out (which benefits their own arguments/agendas ie hard brexit or remain).

Ps whilst I don’t have as big an issue with the withdrawal agreement, I don’t agree with how May handled the negotiations. I personally think we should have started no deal planning earlier (this current situation is a national disgrace). I would said that we’d pay a proportion of divorce settlement only on agreement of a final trade deal and the final figure would be reduced by any costs incurred in us having to prepare for a no deal after a certain date to encourage this situation not to have arisen (ie 9 months ago). In any negotiation you need to provide incentivises and disincentives

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Yeah, I'm a tory voter!!
People voted for Cameron in the GE when a referendum was one of his policies, (about the only thing in his manifesto he delivered on).
They then voted leave in the referendum, Cameron set the ball rolling but the people who voted leave are responsible.
If Corbyn got in and made the mess you think he would would you excuse the people that voted for him? Of course you wouldn't, and you'd be right not to,

So by this reasoning I can blame you for no teachers' pay rise in nearly 10 years...

 

[clint van damme]

So by this reasoning I can blame you for no teachers' pay rise in nearly 10 years...

I've never voted tory in my life. if I had, yeah, you could.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

The backstop means everything stays the same until we leave. Nothing changes at all until we decide to leave ant the EU decides to let us leave. That is why the leavers don't want it at all. It would mean that we sign away our right to leave unless the EU says we could leave.

But remainers don't want it either as it means we have left although would remain until the EU says we could leave.

Isn't it amazing how differently two sides can see the same thing.

Remainers don't want it because it means we would be 'in' with actually no influence as opposed to the made up no influence BoJo had us believe before

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Read your own link properly.

54% would vote remain and 46% would vote leave. And as they say it suggests......

Then it is down to who they ask and where. Ask in a leave area you should get a leave result. Ask in a remain area and you should get a remain answer.

But somehow you got to at least 64% would vote remain.

Keep up with my points, it’s the second time I’ve posted that link and quoted the 54% mark. Given that May’s deal is most likely going to get rejected in parliament, it poses an interesting question. So it’s not really a manipulation.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I've never voted tory in my life. if I had, yeah, you could.

Well according to G we get too much so...

 

[clint van damme]

Well according to G we get too much so...

not an opinion I subscribe to.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I think you need to check the latest numbers. They are nothing like the EU told us they would be. Not a surprise though. But many EU countries are struggling. We have had yet another month of record employment.

Why else do you think the EU have said that they would keep things the same for at least a year when they have said the opposite until now? We have one of the strongest economies when they made out ours was the weakest. And of course the Tories would have been a part of this as they want us to remain.

You need to look beyond the headlines and look at the numbers.

Yes I see Germany heading for another year with a budget surplus that is so large they don't know what to do with it all. Still we know best, Britannia rules the waves etc etc can't get a train to run on time can't negotiate anything etc etc

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Plenty of twists and turns ahead.

I think May will stay until it is all over. I think we will stay in the EU in some way at least. Then May will resign and become the scapegoat. We will remain as one if the strongest countries in the EU and they will continue to sell much mire to us than we buy and continue to take billions of pounds each year off us. The rest of the details need to be decided.

Maybe if we manufactured things rather than put all our eggs into a service economy in London we wouldn't need to rely on their goods...

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

No - it’s manipulated data. The questions posed asked were numerous and the 64 - 36 is derived from an assumption based on the leavers who believe mays deal is not acceptable and then assuming they will abstain or remain

It’s a poll commissioned by people who want to remain and is shameless in data manipulation

The fact you’ve swallowed it hook line and sinker tells me a lot about your credibility in this debate

Whichever way you spin it, it appears the public opinion is turning against Brexit. Be it 54% or 64%, depending on circumstance, it seems fundamentally wrong to drag the public through the Brexit process without another say in the matter. Pollsters will track public opinion, that’s their job. It’s asked the public questions and the results are their findings.

Don’t proceed to lecture me on credibility when you constantly present half truths with very little, if any evidence.

 

[CCFCSteve]

Remainers don't want it because it means we would be 'in' with actually no influence as opposed to the made up no influence BoJo had us believe before

Did you read my earlier message BSB ?

Remainers won’t vote for it because they don’t want to leave (and many still hold out a hope of staying in) or ending up with a closer relationship than that what’s being proposed (ie remaining in customs union etc). Entrenched positions without accepting what the other side voted for. Same as the hard brexiteers

Both appear willing to risk a No deal and the ramifications following it to pursue their own ideal/perfect world.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Did you read my earlier message BSB ?

Remainers won’t vote for it because they don’t want to leave (and many still hold out a hope of staying in) or ending up with a closer relationship than that what’s being proposed (ie remaining in customs union etc). Entrenched positions without accepting what the other side voted for. Same as the hard brexiteers

Both appear willing to risk a No deal and the ramifications following it to pursue their own ideal/perfect world.

No I didn't see it. I never cared much for or against the EU which is why I find the fanaticism on either side but especially Leave hard to understand. I would rather stay but if it must be between Theresa and no deal then I'd prefer the former.

Just want it over and done with.

 

[CCFCSteve]

Yes I see Germany heading for another year with a budget surplus that is so large they don't know what to do with it all. Still we know best, Britannia rules the waves etc etc can't get a train to run on time can't negotiate anything etc etc

Germany are a powerhouse but picking one out of 27 is not really an accurate assessment of the whole of the EU however much they are key to its success. I could reel off some of the employment (and in particular youth employment) figures across many of the southern EU countries and its horrific (and unforgivable)

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Whichever way you spin it, it appears the public opinion is turning against Brexit. Be it 54% or 64%, depending on circumstance, it seems fundamentally wrong to drag the public through the Brexit process without another say in the matter. Pollsters will track public opinion, that’s their job. It’s asked the public questions and the results are their findings.

Don’t proceed to lecture me on credibility when you constantly present half truths with very little, if any evidence.

Oh come on this is a guy who thinks schools get too much money and that Labour would get 100 seats in the 2017 election.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Germany are a powerhouse but picking one out of 27 is not really an accurate assessment of the whole of the EU however much they are key to its success. I could reel off some of the employment (and in particular youth employment) figures across many of the southern EU countries and its horrific (and unforgivable)

I'm not claiming the Eurozone to be superior at all but I find boasting about our own strength a bit tiresome when there is a much more successful and sustainable economy in that part of the continent.

 

[CCFCSteve]

No I didn't see it. I never cared much for or against the EU which is why I find the fanaticism on either side but especially Leave hard to understand. I would rather stay but if it must be between Theresa and no deal then I'd prefer the former.

Just want it over and done with.

Agree with that, the way it’s dragged on is ridiculous and a lot of it unnecessary !

The only reason I mentioned my post is that I mentioned that too many pick sound bites from both sides without looking at the detail. The politicians on all sides have been an embarrassment!

 

[Grendel]

Whichever way you spin it, it appears the public opinion is turning against Brexit. Be it 54% or 64%, depending on circumstance, it seems fundamentally wrong to drag the public through the Brexit process without another say in the matter. Pollsters will track public opinion, that’s their job. It’s asked the public questions and the results are their findings.

Don’t proceed to lecture me on credibility when you constantly present half truths with very little, if any evidence.

The fact you’ve swallowed this garbage from a poll commissioned by the people’s vote exposes you as a gullible fool

I’ll lecture you as much as a like as you need educating

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Agree with that, the way it’s dragged on is ridiculous and a lot of it unnecessary !

The only reason I mentioned my post is that I mentioned that too many pick sound bites from both sides without looking at the detail. The politicians on all sides have been an embarrassment!

The facts show that immigration was the leading concern among Leave voters. The facts also show that we already had the power to manage EU migration and that most comes from outside the EU anyway. Lastly the facts also show education was the strongest predictor of how you voted.

None of these things strike me as a coincidence so yes take sound bites with pinches of salt but I don't treat each side as equally valid when clearly they aren't.

 

[martcov]

Likewise. Dunno who does these opinion polls, but everyone I speak to (whichever way they voted) still feel the same.

Yes. Only a small percentage have changed their minds. A relatively small net gain to remain. More significant is that new voters have come in as they are now over 18, and some older voters, where leave had more support, have died. Even if everyone voted the same, remain would win. Assuming the young use their vote.

 

[martcov]

The notion Brexiteers would want another referendum which includes an option to remain is an absurd one.

So they are convinced that they would lose a second referendum with remain as an option?

 

[martcov]

No - it’s manipulated data. The questions posed asked were numerous and the 64 - 36 is derived from an assumption based on the leavers who believe mays deal is not acceptable and then assuming they will abstain or remain

It’s a poll commissioned by people who want to remain and is shameless in data manipulation

The fact you’ve swallowed it hook line and sinker tells me a lot about your credibility in this debate

It cuts both ways. Leave speed crap. Even I got Facebook leave ads when I was back in the UK. I don’t get them here. I was targeted through social media. The lie was that WTO is free trade. A picture of Dyson the Singapore electric car builder was there with some quote.

I don’t think some people notice this crap. They just see and believe it.

 

[martcov]

I take a look at what you say and straight away wonder why I bothered.

I want an end of FOM? Show me where I have ever said that. I have always said the opposite. I want FOM for myself. But of course you will ignore this.

Nobody wants FOM to end? Shows how clueless you are if you are being honest from Germany. That was one of the big reas8ns people voted leave. Or would you like to explain why you say so? And truthfully.

We discussed it before. You said „it’s just wrong“.

 

[CCFCSteve]

The facts show that immigration was the leading concern among Leave voters. The facts also show that we already had the power to manage EU migration and that most comes from outside the EU anyway. Lastly the facts also show education was the strongest predictor of how you voted.

None of these things strike me as a coincidence so yes take sound bites with pinches of salt but I don't treat each side as equally valid when clearly they aren't.

I agree we had levers (most temporary) that we could have used better. Freedom of movement would still remain though.

My point earlier was that there are several things within the withdrawal agreement that would most probably address concerns of a large number of Leavers, even if we ended up in the backstop temporarily (not having to pay into the EU pot and better control of immigration ie end of freedom of movement) whilst also retaining a close ties to the EU/access to EU market in the short (to medium) term which minimises the negative economic impact of leaving and would provide comfort to a large number of Remainers.

Unfortunately neither of the extremes want to budge

 

[martcov]

I think you need to check the latest numbers. They are nothing like the EU told us they would be. Not a surprise though. But many EU countries are struggling. We have had yet another month of record employment.

Why else do you think the EU have said that they would keep things the same for at least a year when they have said the opposite until now? We have one of the strongest economies when they made out ours was the weakest. And of course the Tories would have been a part of this as they want us to remain.

You need to look beyond the headlines and look at the numbers.

In Germany we have the highest number of employed since reunification. That’s a number.

The worry is the car industry because of the Diesel scandal.

 

[martcov]

I agree we had levers (most temporary) that we could have used better. Freedom of movement would still remain though.

My point earlier was that there are several things within the withdrawal agreement that would most probably address concerns of a large number of Leavers, even if we ended up in the backstop temporarily (not having to pay into the EU pot and better control of immigration ie end of freedom of movement) whilst also retaining a close ties to the EU/access to EU market in the short (to medium) term which minimises the negative economic impact of leaving and would provide comfort to a large number of Remainers.

Unfortunately neither of the extremes want to budge

Yes. It could be worse. The question is if we accept this fudge, we are not really out or in. Why bother with Brexit at all?

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

The fact you’ve swallowed this garbage from a poll commissioned by the people’s vote exposes you as a gullible fool

I’ll lecture you as much as a like as you need educating

The poll by YouGov found 54% were in favour of remaining after Theresa May’s withdrawal agreement was published. YouGov is the independent pollster. So both independent and biased pollsters have found the same thing. 54% is still a larger margin than the 51.8% that voted for Brexit in 2016.

I’ve never come across anyone so intellectually high-handed who lacks intellect. Your arguments are all bark and no bite. I was taught to not make sweeping statements at GCSE level — that’s the bedrock of your arguments.

 

[martcov]

The poll by YouGov found 54% were in favour of remaining after Theresa May’s withdrawal agreement was published. YouGov is the independent pollster. So both independent and biased pollsters have found the same thing. 54% is still a larger margin than the 51.8% that voted for Brexit in 2016.

I’ve never come across anyone so intellectually high-handed who lacks intellect. Your arguments are all bark and no bite. I was taught to not make sweeping statements at GCSE level — that’s the bedrock of your arguments.

You will now be called mad, slobbering, dribbling, and other insults. Which will sort of prove your point.

 

[Grendel]

The poll by YouGov found 54% were in favour of remaining after Theresa May’s withdrawal agreement was published. YouGov is the independent pollster. So both independent and biased pollsters have found the same thing. 54% is still a larger margin than the 51.8% that voted for Brexit in 2016.

I’ve never come across anyone so intellectually high-handed who lacks intellect. Your arguments are all bark and no bite. I was taught to not make sweeping statements at GCSE level — that’s the bedrock of your arguments.

No it isn't.

On the one hand you claimed that no-one would want a second referendum purely based on opinion polls. Yet this is now your defining argument for justification.

You make the statement - 54% is a larger margin than 51.8%



Well yes but this is in an opinion poll - which are now using as validation. Consider this - of the 165 polls conducted during the last campaign only 16 ever had leave ahead and none by the eventual margin of victory. There were, however, polls that did have the margin of support for remain in the prior campaign. So the attempt to use this as justification for a further referendum is absurd. The polls in the last campaign failed to actually predict the final outcome

You actually skirt the issues as well. You never actually have defined if there were a second referendum what the question would be. Also would you agree if there was a second referendum and remain was successful consider this. Before article 50 was revoked an opinion poll was shown that revealed leave had an advantage would you then agree that a third referendum was required. I assume the answer would be yes - if not I can only conclude you are putting personal preference above democratic process.

Your posting on this subject I would have to say reminds me of a Chinese meal. Its very full initially but after a short space of time on investigation you become very empty. Your arguments are vacuous.

I know nothing about you but I strongly suspect you are very young (under 25) and somewhat lacking in experience and independent thought. You are led by the media you follow.

 

[Grendel]

You will now be called mad, slobbering, dribbling, and other insults. Which will sort of prove your point.

No he is young, gullible and easily manipulated by people like you

 

[CCFCSteve]

Yes. It could be worse. The question is if we accept this fudge, we are not really out or in. Why bother with Brexit at all?

The fudge is (at least supposedly) just short term. As I said earlier though, even in the much maligned backstop* we apparently don’t pay anything over to the EU (saving billions per annum), retrieve control over our borders (for what good that will do !) and would exit the common fisheries policy. I believe those three things alone would cover a significant proportion of many Leavers main aims and/or concerns and that’s if we are left in the worst case scenario so the public would seen benefits in it.

*im not a fan of this either and would prefer if we could leave unilaterally with certain stipulations ie if the EU hasn’t come up with a solution for the border issue within a specified time ie 3-5 years - yes, I would put the onus back on the EU as the UK government could never legally impose a hard border.

 

[Sick Boy]

Oh come on this is a guy who thinks schools get too much money and that Labour would get 100 seats in the 2017 election.

I seem to remember that Labour were going to be wiped out for a generation...

 

[martcov]

The fudge is (at least supposedly) just short term. As I said earlier though, even in the much maligned backstop* we apparently don’t pay anything over to the EU (saving billions per annum), retrieve control over our borders (for what good that will do !) and would exit the common fisheries policy. I believe those three things alone would cover a significant proportion of many Leavers main aims and/or concerns and that’s if we are left in the worst case scenario so the public would seen benefits in it.

*im not a fan of this either and would prefer if we could leave unilaterally with certain stipulations ie if the EU hasn’t come up with a solution for the border issue within a specified time ie 3-5 years - yes, I would put the onus back on the EU as the UK government could never legally impose a hard border.

Only problem with the British border question is that is not really the EU's problem. Britain is the cause of the problem by voluntarily withdrawing from a regulatory customs area. It's up to Britain to solve the problems it is creating.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

No it isn't.

On the one hand you claimed that no-one would want a second referendum purely based on opinion polls. Yet this is now your defining argument for justification.

You make the statement - 54% is a larger margin than 51.8%



Well yes but this is in an opinion poll - which are now using as validation. Consider this - of the 165 polls conducted during the last campaign only 16 ever had leave ahead and none by the eventual margin of victory. There were, however, polls that did have the margin of support for remain in the prior campaign. So the attempt to use this as justification for a further referendum is absurd. The polls in the last campaign failed to actually predict the final outcome

You actually skirt the issues as well. You never actually have defined if there were a second referendum what the question would be. Also would you agree if there was a second referendum and remain was successful consider this. Before article 50 was revoked an opinion poll was shown that revealed leave had an advantage would you then agree that a third referendum was required. I assume the answer would be yes - if not I can only conclude you are putting personal preference above democratic process.

Your posting on this subject I would have to say reminds me of a Chinese meal. Its very full initially but after a short space of time on investigation you become very empty. Your arguments are vacuous.

I know nothing about you but I strongly suspect you are very young (under 25) and somewhat lacking in experience and independent thought. You are led by the media you follow.

How very condescending.

You know full well I’m not using opinion polls as a justification for a second referendum. I consider it a very likely outcome given the political climate at hand. That is, a lack of support for May’s deal in parliament, the EU saying they won’t renegotiate and the alternative being a no-deal Brexit. There is no widespread support for that at all and you know it. Hence the need for the electorate to be called once more. It’s intellectually dishonest for you to use my use of opinion polls as justification for another referendum. The use of opinion polls is to do away with this idea that the calls for a second referendum is somehow undemocratic as the public seem increasingly in favour of it.

A pertinent issue for the Leave campaign was parliamentary sovereignty. Parliament is about to reject May’s deal, that is the likely spark for calls for a second referendum. How could the government put that deal to the public if Parliament has rejected it? Therefore, the likelihood is that a referendum would be between remaining in the EU and a no deal. The exact questioning for a second referendum would be decided by the Electoral Commission. Referendums usually have two answers so a third option is very, very unlikely and undesirable as it would probably split the Brexit vote more than the Remain vote.

Again, my previous posts have said that the issue of EU membership will not be over regardless of outcome, Leave or Remain. In a hypothetical scenario whereby we don’t leave the EU, and down the line there was support for another referendum, then I imagine there will be yet another referendum. Likewise, if we go ahead and leave and Brexit goes badly, there will be a demand for another referendum to rejoin. This issue is very divisive and doesn’t end in 2019 when our status is finalised one way or the other.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

So they are convinced that they would lose a second referendum with remain as an option?

Yep, but somehow in this distopian, Orwellian nightmare that another referendum, somehow, is ‘undemocratic’ and those arguing for another referendum are neo-Stalinist!