Self gender identifying (15 Viewers)

hill83

Well-Known Member
Out of interest. Is it one of those things that you can joke with them about or is it off bounds?

Early stages to be fair. Its been known and spoke about for a few years but only recently has it fully gone ahead. I still struggle with saying “She” rather than “He” as it’s a big change. But overall it is what is is.

There is still banter.

I’ve made a point that I’ll still be using the same nickname I’ve used since we were young. Which is only surname related but very much a male type of nickname.
 

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D

Deleted member 5849

Guest
What has this got to do with the thread?

I wasn’t going to get involved, but one of my best mates is at the early stages of a sex change or whatever you call it now and he/she would kick the living fucking daylights out of a peado.

So again. What does your link have to do with the thread?
I assume (and I may be wrong!) it's actually more sympathetic and making more of a point than that. It's showing how picking an arbitrary case to make a wider judgement about a particular group is not on.

(Watch it be the case that they actually believe that all football kitmen are sex offenders now!)
 

Nick

Administrator
Early stages to be fair. Its been known and spoke about for a few years but only recently has it fully gone ahead. I still struggle with saying “She” rather than “He” as it’s a big change. But overall it is what is is.

There is still banter.

I’ve made a point that I’ll still be using the same nickname I’ve used since we were young. Which is only surname related but very much a male type of nickname.
Can't imagine how it would be if one of my mates went through that. I guess if they are going through the actual change its not a case of them chucking a wig on and trying to blag it. It's been thought about properly!

We would usually just rip the piss out of each other about anything we could, it would be a bit strange as somebody would end up saying something trying to be funny and it going down like a lead balloon.
 

xcraigx

Well-Known Member
What has this got to do with the thread?

I wasn’t going to get involved, but one of my best mates is at the early stages of a sex change or whatever you call it now and he/she would kick the living fucking daylights out of a peado.

So again. What does your link have to do with the thread?

I presumed the point being made is that peado and trans don't go hand in hand. I've followed the self ID issue quite a lot over the past 6 months and quite often the two seem to get lumped together which isn't right.
 

Nick

Administrator
I presumed the point being made is that peado and trans don't go hand in hand. I've followed the self ID issue quite a lot over the past 6 months and quite often the two seem to get lumped together which isn't right.
Of course not every one who wants to change from a male to a female will be into kids.

The issue is more that some have clocked on to take advantage of it for both sexual benefits and for things like moving prisons etc.
 

hill83

Well-Known Member
Can't imagine how it would be if one of my mates went through that. I guess if they are going through the actual change its not a case of them chucking a wig on and trying to blag it. It's been thought about properly!

We would usually just rip the piss out of each other about anything we could, it would be a bit strange as somebody would end up saying something trying to be funny and it going down like a lead balloon.

You’d just crack on and be fine I assume. For example don’t say racist jokes around me is a general rule. And now I’m mid thirties that’s not an issue and people that would are no longer friends.
 

hill83

Well-Known Member
I assume (and I may be wrong!) it's actually more sympathetic and making more of a point than that. It's showing how picking an arbitrary case to make a wider judgement about a particular group is not on.

(Watch it be the case that they actually believe that all football kitmen are sex offenders now!)
I presumed the point being made is that peado and trans don't go hand in hand. I've followed the self ID issue quite a lot over the past 6 months and quite often the two seem to get lumped together which isn't right.

Hope so
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
Exactly that: a poster provided to a link to a green party report into the wrongful action of a transsexual who sought to provide her father, who'd been arrested for sex crimes, with a party role. It had nothing to do with this thread but was instead an attempt to smear and tar all who self-identify as the gender opposite to their assigned sex.

I don't believe that just because a CCFC employer engaged in sex crimes that, by inference, all those who support CCFC condone sex crimes.

.

No one is saying that. You still haven’t answered the issue I raised on the first post I made on this thread
 

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
I presumed the point being made is that peado and trans don't go hand in hand. I've followed the self ID issue quite a lot over the past 6 months and quite often the two seem to get lumped together which isn't right.
It isn't that people who are trans are more likely to be sex offenders. It's that people who are likely to be sex offenders have in some cases used concepts like self ID to further their aims.

 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
You can try change the subject in order to divert what you posted, but it doesn't make any difference.

It’s you that’s refusing to enter discussion on the topic
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
Wouldn't waste my time mate, you seem to struggle enough with not knowing the difference between sex and gender. For what's worth, being transgender is shit – I wouldn’t wish it on anybody; but I don't need it made more shit by running into some of the stuff I find on here. I can deal with the hate posts like that from the likes of fernandopartridge and Captain Dart: it's the misinformed nonsense that's written that drives me to distraction. I'm 59, and have been trying to understand why I am as I am since I was 16, when I used to go the old central library (next to the old cathedral) to hunt down medical books. What I know from my time 12 years studying and lecturing in physiology, bio-psychology and cognitive neuroscience is that, as the years go by, the predictions of Daniel Kahneman (noble prize winner in behavioural economics) that science would show that 70% of what we are is determined by our genes, looks to be increasingly true.

Going to Plymouth next week, just hope I don't run into the type of twats I sometime do that make me wonder if I should just stop going.

With respect it would at least be worth questioning the extremist end of the transgender lobby and the implications this has.

As you are 59 I’m sure you remember Linda Bellos as a militant vilified as such in the 80’s. Do you not consider it somewhat ironic that in certain quarters Bellos is not even considered mainstream but in fact towards the right on this issue. Which in itself is laughable.

If feminist Linda Bellos is seen as a risk, progressive politics has lost its way | Claire Heuchan
 

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
From my post, earlier in the thread

The problem, as always, is the extremes. On one hand you have the politically correct, radical transgender lobby; on the other the politically wrong, radical feminists. Ironically, the latter's position of 'trans-exclusion' from womens spaces is premised on the argument that gender is a social construct. Either way, from what I see, both groups have deep, personal issues that they project on to each other.

Why do you use terminology like 'radical feminist' to describe women who want to protect their rights, for example, to use public toilets that are exclusively for the use of women? What's radical about that?

I know the difference between sex and gender. The aggressive trans rights activists blur the lines between the two as a means to give males access to spaces reserved for females.

They do you no favours at all and i wish you no ill or offence.
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
Exactly that: a poster provided to a link to a green party report into the wrongful action of a transsexual who sought to provide her father, who'd been arrested for sex crimes, with a party role. It had nothing to do with this thread but was instead an attempt to smear and tar all who self-identify as the gender opposite to their assigned sex.

I don't believe that just because a CCFC employer engaged in sex crimes that, by inference, all those who support CCFC condone sex crimes.

.

You’re misunderstanding the argument, possibly intentionally.

The argument isn’t that trans people are dangerous, it’s that men are dangerous. Men commit 98% of sexual offences, this is recognised by sex segregation in places like prisons and rape centres.

There’s no evidence that offending patterns are changed by “gender identity” (whatever that is, I’m not religious and don’t believe in souls and I’m not sexist and don’t believe in gender so it’s beyond me). 50% of trans women in prison are there for sex offences, that’s closer to Male than female offending patterns.

The other point being made is that the proposed GRA change from sex reassignment being required to self declaration essentially removes all sex based safeguarding protections and provide predators with a route to access vulnerable people. Karen White, David Challenor, Jonathon Yaniv, Ian Huntley are all predatory men using trans ideology to hide.

If you remove any external ability to verify trans status you essentially remove any ability to differentiate between “true trans” and these guys.

There’s a lot of trans sexual people concerned about losing their protections with this change. If you can’t define trans (or woman) then you can’t protect them in law. Also the decades of trust between transsexual people and women is being destroyed by people who are blatantly men in dresses and have no intention of going through SRS surgery.

That’s before you get into the science denial, sexism and homophobia that’s rife in trans ideology (see the rapey “lesbians should get over their aversion to penis” stuff, or the “women are trill, silly little things who like pink and makeup” narratives present in literally every transition story).

The only people that benefit from the change of trans being a diagnosis of gender dysphoria to a lifestyle choice are the trenders and the grifters. Not actual trans people. If you read the comments to the select committee, self ID wasn’t even a priority, access to medical care was. But that requires money whereas this was supposed to be a quick, cheap social justice win for the Tories.

Edit: point of order: Aimee Challenor isn’t trans sexual, he’s not gone through any surgery. He’s transgender.
 
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Astute

Well-Known Member
This sort of thing is wrong. How is a child supposed to grow up not knowing what they are of should be?

And yes I do know the difference. I know someone who is/was hermaphrodite. Her parents let her grow up with letting her be what she felt was best. But she only let those that she trusted know. It took her until she was in her 20's to totally decide although she more or less always knew.

Here you have a child that is a boy but dressed to look like a girl. Of course young children are very impressionable. So why risk putting them through the pain of deciding when if brought up normally as a boy everything would have been normal.

Yes give help to those who need it. But it isn't a competition to make up more genders/names. Many people seem to do it for their 10 minutes of fame. They should consider those who struggle every day and get ridiculed because of those who find it fun.
 

Nick

Administrator
This sort of thing is wrong. How is a child supposed to grow up not knowing what they are of should be?

And yes I do know the difference. I know someone who is/was hermaphrodite. Her parents let her grow up with letting her be what she felt was best. But she only let those that she trusted know. It took her until she was in her 20's to totally decide although she more or less always knew.

Here you have a child that is a boy but dressed to look like a girl. Of course young children are very impressionable. So why risk putting them through the pain of deciding when if brought up normally as a boy everything would have been normal.

Yes give help to those who need it. But it isn't a competition to make up more genders/names. Many people seem to do it for their 10 minutes of fame. They should consider those who struggle every day and get ridiculed because of those who find it fun.

My daughter used to go to school with a lad like this. His parents used to really push him to be girly to the point he wasn't allowed to go out and play with boys if he wanted to and it had to be girly things only. He had to have his nails painted when he went into school and things like that. He was about 4-5 at the time and then became a Vegan because that is what he was told he was.

It is one thing letting the kids grow up as they want to and another forcing them a certain way.
 

Astute

Well-Known Member
Equally, the issue for the medicalisation of transgenderism is that it enforces the view that males and females should act in a way that is culturally stereotypical of their sex. On this, I’m actuslly on the side of the trans exclusionary radical feminists.
So how should gay people be seen to act? I have several friends who are gay. Some act like the sex they are. Some don't. But the point you are trying to put across makes it sound as though something is wrong somewhere.

They don't have to force their views/preferences upon anyone. There is only one that I know has problems frequently. And she forces her views/preferences upon others.

I am not saying that anyone should hide what they are. But shouting from the rooftops like some do makes it difficult for others who just want to be accepted for what they are.
 

Sky Blue Pete

Well-Known Member
Finding this really interesting and easy for me to not be upset by comments as I’m not personally invested although friends have changed gender and friends in the Union are very pro trans rights and I feel for them from an equality standpoint.

The one comment I hadn’t considered was that there really does need to be a structured process to decide how someone can change their gender. Also it should need a formal process to avoid me changing my mind daily as to what gender I wish to identify as one day to the next.

I’d been convinced it was black and white and about equality and really it is way more nuanced than that so we need some grown up discussions where individuals don’t throw dolls out the pram as they feel a perceived slight.

Scuse the pun but someone in power needs to grab the issue by the balls and get people together to discuss things in order to cover more than just their particular narrow stance and to consider the whole
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
This sort of thing is wrong. How is a child supposed to grow up not knowing what they are of should be?

And yes I do know the difference. I know someone who is/was hermaphrodite. Her parents let her grow up with letting her be what she felt was best. But she only let those that she trusted know. It took her until she was in her 20's to totally decide although she more or less always knew.

Here you have a child that is a boy but dressed to look like a girl. Of course young children are very impressionable. So why risk putting them through the pain of deciding when if brought up normally as a boy everything would have been normal.

Yes give help to those who need it. But it isn't a competition to make up more genders/names. Many people seem to do it for their 10 minutes of fame. They should consider those who struggle every day and get ridiculed because of those who find it fun.

Hermaphroditism doesn’t exist in humans.

You likely knew someone with a Disorder of Sexual Development, commonly known as intersex. It’s about 0.02% of the population that can’t easily be classified as male or female and a separate issue to transgenderism.
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
@shimmeee No, I am not missing the argument.

I think the problem here is that the topic moved from one of self id to the association of sex crimes to a daughter of someone who’d committed sex crimes, with the interference this brings.

The thread then also started to slide into puerile postings of a banana type level, scatterred with the usual confusion and ignorance (e.g. sex vs gender, definition of tanssexusl etc ).

I replied to the self id argument way back in this thread in which I recognised the difficulties of self id for society; but I pointed out that the example used to highlight the problem actually described a case in which the person had been medically ‘diagnosed’ as transgender (read: medically sanctioned, as its currently impossible to disgnosie transgenderism).

The point made was that whether a person undergoes medical review in their transgenderism or not, people who commit sex crimes will always find a way to do this.

Only an individual can say if experience gender dysphoria. Self id can be problmstic in ithat if a person of a particular sex feels more comfortable with a gender culturally associated with the opposite sex, then they need to think carefully about how their actions play out in that culture, and act and behave accordingly.

Equally, the issue for the medicalisation of transgenderism is that it enforces the view that males and females should act in a way that is culturally stereotypical of their sex. On this, I’m actuslly on the side of the trans exclusionary radical feminists.

I also believe and hope that in the future fewer transgender people will feel compelled to have GRS simply to protect their idenity from societal expectations and cultual norms.

It’s an incredibly complex subject, philosophically, politically, medically; and tbh I’m bored of. I simply joined the thread initially to point out the (ironic) mistake made in associating a particular sex crime case with self id, and then later because of the hate posts, Lets not let them get away with that by falling for the deflections that have been since thrown up.

Good post, short of time so two points:

The Challenor chase is a great example of due diligence not being done on someone because they are trans. Aimee should never have been given the responsibility they were. They showed serious safeguarding errors and were excused because of their trans status

Secondly, I think you’re confusing being gender non-conforming with having gender dysphoria. The former is great but is a separate issue. The latter is a serious psychological condition which often requires surgery to alleviate mental anguish as feeing you are in the wrong body.

The former should be protected from discrimination but not treated as the opposite sex IMHO. The latter need support and care and if appropriate SRS surgery after which I’m fine for them to be treated as the opposite sex if it helps their illness. I will say that proper recording of their actual sex for statistics and healthcare is still important. Facts trump feelings IMO.

Coincidentally, that’s basically the current position under UK law. IMHO it should stay that way.

Last point: I’d argue claiming someone literally is a womAn because they do typically woman like things is massively regressive and sexist. My daughter isn’t my son because she likes superheroes and football. That shit should’ve died in the 70s. That’s the essential difference between modern trans ideology and what we’ve always thought of as trans (gender dysphoria)
 
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Astute

Well-Known Member
Hermaphroditism doesn’t exist in humans.

You likely knew someone with a Disorder of Sexual Development, commonly known as intersex. It’s about 0.02% of the population that can’t easily be classified as male or female and a separate issue to transgenderism.
Not exactly correct

What is a hermaphrodite?
 

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
@shimmeee No, I am not missing the argument.

I think the problem here is that the topic moved from one of self id to the association of sex crimes to a daughter of someone who’d committed sex crimes, with the interference this brings.

The thread then also started to slide into puerile postings of a banana type level, scatterred with the usual confusion and ignorance (e.g. sex vs gender, definition of tanssexusl etc ).

I replied to the self id argument way back in this thread in which I recognised the difficulties of self id for society; but I pointed out that the example used to highlight the problem actually described a case in which the person had been medically ‘diagnosed’ as transgender (read: medically sanctioned, as its currently impossible to disgnosie transgenderism).

The point made was that whether a person undergoes medical review in their transgenderism or not, people who commit sex crimes will always find a way to do this.

Only an individual can say if experience gender dysphoria. Self id can be problmstic in ithat if a person of a particular sex feels more comfortable with a gender culturally associated with the opposite sex, then they need to think carefully about how their actions play out in that culture, and act and behave accordingly.

Equally, the issue for the medicalisation of transgenderism is that it enforces the view that males and females should act in a way that is culturally stereotypical of their sex. On this, I’m actuslly on the side of the trans exclusionary radical feminists.

I also believe and hope that in the future fewer transgender people will feel compelled to have GRS simply to protect their idenity from societal expectations and cultual norms.

It’s an incredibly complex subject, philosophically, politically, medically; and tbh I’m bored of. I simply joined the thread initially to point out the (ironic) mistake made in associating a particular sex crime case with self id, and then later because of the hate posts, Lets not let them get away with that by falling for the deflections that have been since thrown up.

[above was typed on the train on an iphone 5 without me glasses, so excuse the typos!)
Having read this post I concede that I've made some poor posts on this thread.
 

OffenhamSkyBlue

Well-Known Member
Hate to think what is going to happen to Ratatouille's Remy, no matter how brilliant he is at slicing aubergines.


I have also heard that Rapunzel is starting to rot away in that tower as she turns away all the male prince suitors and waits for her raging lesbian in shining dungarees to rescue her.
But where's their risk assessment for working at height??!
 

Nick

Administrator
giphy.gif
 
D

Deleted member 4439

Guest
oh for fucks sake, yer prob right. fernandopartridge, all is forgiven. Manly/Womanly hugs all round.

On which I was doing a lot of people watching at the Mill on Saturday. Man hugs seem all the rage. don't they?
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
Very much agree.



Hermaphroditism doesn't exist in humans in the truest sense that can be be found in other parts of the animal world, though the term was used to classify intersex conditions before the latter, more politically correct term was adopted. I admit I haven't looked for the stats, but that figure looks low, as it intersex includes mixed karotypes: 1 in 500 males is XXY.



I'm genuinely confused by the post - and I not trying to incite - it's almost as if I'm damned in whatever I say and write! I guess that's the nature of internet forums and the exchange of written words rather than a fluid exchange of thoughts, ideas and opinions.

What I was trying to say that if the male person self-identifies as female then there are certain social situations in which they need to consider how their presence is felt so that others are not made to feel ill at ease. The more extreme example would be: should they attend a women's refuge? (I think possibly not: it depends on the other women, I think).

I'm not at all saying that transgender folk should be anything other than themselves in the right place at the right time. Invariably, it's always the 'interesting' people that fill the papers. I can't say I've cared for or had much to do with the 'alternative' scene, but the few fellow travellers I know are all very down to earth types who recognise their uniqueness in actually straddling both sides of the divides rather than occupying a single space.

One of my mates at work is gay: when we go outside for a smoke he's as camp as can be. I don't expect him to be camping it up quite so much when we're in a senior management meeting discussing why the latest IT project is going down the pan.

The second part of your email seemed a bit like a non-sequitur, but maybe I didn't quite catch your drift. But I think I agree: invariably, anybody with an agenda to push is a turn off. Most folk just want to get on with their quiet lives.





I don't wish you ill, but I do mean you offence.

You see, your problem is that you are so full of hate that you fail to stop to read posts and to assimilate what is being said: and, as you appear incapable of holding discussion and debate when challenged on a point, you choose instead to find something else to throw at the person, even if you don't know quite what you've stumbled upon and how it fits with anything.

Right from my post on page three I explained, as I have explained once more, that transgender folk need to consider how they act, behave and use societal spaces.

And by the way, I don't need anybody to do me favours: radical trans-activists no more speak for me than Conchita Wurst does for hipsters.

As for radical feminists, this is simply a defining perspective among feminists, just as someone might describe themselves as 'far-left'. It's not a derogatory term, it's simply a political term, just as you might distinguish neo-liberals from liberal democrats. You missed a trick though, I had described them as trans exclusionary RF's which indeed is a derogatory term, and which I lazily used to identify one particular radical feminist group.

And as I have pointed out, whilst many of the radical feminists (such as Julie Binden) appear to have as many personal demons as do the radical trans activists, I actually have a lot of time for their (the feminists') core premise in the debate; though I expect that one, like all of the other intelligent points made by contributors to this thread, also flew right over yours and Grendel's head, just like a Chaplin penalty).

Hope I never see you around.

(Can’t delete the bits not to me my phone, pretend I have)

You’re using the 1.7% stat for DSD/intersex conditions. 1.5% of which are very mild things where there’s no ambiguity of sex. This also has nothing to do with trans people, TBH I find using someone’s illness as a prop for your identity rather poor form. But trust me, I have seen the stats and a mosaic karotype does not mean ambiguous sex categorisation. There are XY females and XXXY males. It’s about the SRY gene activating for male development and gonadal development pathways. Very very few people are of indeterminate sex. No one is both and no one can change sex. Those are the biological facts as they stand.

Trans people’s dysphoria is theirs to manage, not societies (beyond NHS care like anyone else). Their discrimination and abuse however is societies problem, but making everyone pretend they’re real women isn’t the solution. It doesn’t go to the root of actual transphobia and it doesn’t remove the problem outside of women’s spaces. If anything compelled speech and violating boundaries of a minority will add to resentment against trans people.

It’s on men to accept all gender non conforming men into their spaces, gay, trans, effeminate and all the rest.

Obviously none of this applies to trans women who pass, as they can pretend to be the opposite sex with no repercussions.
 

Captain Dart

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Captain Dart

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