The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (114 Viewers)

[Deleted member 5849]

It actually can’t be removed by the uk alone and the Eu have already said they want any extension limited to July to stop the farce of MEPs from the uk going to Brussels

The process to consider removing it would take is very close to deadline day. The second referendum argument becomes dead in the water as that would take months to organise - home office estimate 1 year

It would indeed be pretty ludicrous to elect MEPs, that's true.

Although imagine the election campaigns!

 

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[Sky Blue Pete]

I just wish enough MPs had the courage to do what the majority of them want to do.
We keep hearing there is no majority in the house for any option, but there is, they are just too scared to say it or enact it.
This is what the majority think - There is no good Brexit deal: soft medium or hard that I can persuade the rest to vote for. A 'No deal' is out of the question. A people's vote though it might be convenient will cause more anger and division and probably just kicks the can down the road.
The only option left is revoke article 50 and remain in the EU. I know this is for the best but for many reasons I am scared to do it:
1) We voted to have a referendum. Doh!
2) We voted to trigger article 50. Oops.
3) We said in our manifestos we would honour the result. Duplicitous of us, agreed
4) People are very angry and there could be unrest. Indeed.
5) The twitter trolls will harass me. Unpalatable
6) My personal safety is at risk from nutjobs.
7) I could be deselected.
8) My party could split, collapse, implode. I love my party most of all.
9) I could lose my seat. Gulp!
10) I can't wait around for history to vindicate me.

Asking them to ignore all of the above and do the right thing - cancel Brexit, apologise to the nation, offer to stand down at the next GE - is asking for courage, vision and genuine patriotism.
So it won't happen and on with this national catastrophe we go.

Bang on

 

[Grendel]

Bang on

It’s a solution that would destroy democracy in this country for ever

 

[Captain Dart]

Can those of you closer to this, explain to a 'thickie' like me, why it's important for no deal to be taken off the table before they'll speak?

Taking aside that some of you do or don't want Brexit, I do get it. I can also see why lots are opposed to no deal. However, assuming that Brexit will still happen in some shape or form, how can it be sensible to announce that no deal isn't an option as it surely weakens any bargaining power if we're to go back to the EU and ask for more to get a deal through. Even if secretly they don't want it, the threat of it being there might surely help achieve a better UK deal, so what am I missing?

Ta

It can't even be done without changing the law.

 

[Sick Boy]

Spot on. But get your tin hat on as it is supposed to be the fault of May only.

I don’t think anyone on here has ever suggested such a thing

 

[Sick Boy]

I'm sure that, given the EU is a little frightened of a 'no deal' exit, leaving that option on the table would strengthen our position in any future negotiations.

They know the UK doesn’t have a hand to play, it’s always been bluffing throughout

 

[Grendel]

They know the UK doesn’t have a hand to play, it’s always been bluffing throughout

Given the timescales and unless the EU speak with forked tongue on extension timings then we will leave on the 29th as we will not achieve anything from the Eu time frame given regarding an extension

 

[Johnnythespider]

It’s a solution that would destroy democracy in this country for ever

And that's a long long time

 

[CCFCSteve]

I find it laughable that a man that spent 5 years playing party politics in a coalition (remember swapping welfare sanctions for a carrier bag charge!) has the cheek to call someone else out on it.

The Lib Dems abstaining on any future votes will have no impact on Labour as a party, and you are actually incorrect as the next stage of action for party members was the notion of a People's Vote... not a 2nd referendum.

PV is a second referendum in all but name ! people try to pretend it’s not by calling it that (I refuse to)

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

PV is a second referendum in all but name ! people try to pretend it’s not by calling it that (I refuse to)

So what is a referendum by definition?

The definition I have is 'a general vote by the electorate on a single political question which has been referred to them for a direct decision'.

 

[Grendel]

So what is a referendum by definition?

The definition I have is 'a general vote by the electorate on a single political question which has been referred to them for a direct decision'.

How would it fit in given the timescales involved?

 

[tommydazzle]

Can those of you closer to this, explain to a 'thickie' like me, why it's important for no deal to be taken off the table before they'll speak?

Taking aside that some of you do or don't want Brexit, I do get it. I can also see why lots are opposed to no deal. However, assuming that Brexit will still happen in some shape or form, how can it be sensible to announce that no deal isn't an option as it surely weakens any bargaining power if we're to go back to the EU and ask for more to get a deal through. Even if secretly they don't want it, the threat of it being there might surely help achieve a better UK deal, so what am I missing?

Ta

As someone who voted remain, I do have some sympathy for this view.

Imagine I came to buy your second hand car off you and I started negotiations by saying, "OK, just before we start let me just tell you that I'm definitely going to buy your car, I won't be walking away without a deal. Right, what's your best price?" Seems a bit of a weak hand to me.

 

[CCFCSteve]

May's very strategy is completely politicised. She is putting conservation of the Tories above everything else, including what she actually wants.

That’s rubbish, she was trying to fudge a deal that was acceptable to the EU and also would command a majorly in the commons, knowing labour would vote against she has to try to please her party...do the numbers

Corbyn hasn’t wanted a deal because he wants a GE....that’s politicising ! Even labour are confirming it.

 

[CCFCSteve]

So what is a referendum by definition?

The definition I have is 'a general vote by the electorate on a single political question which has been referred to them for a direct decision'.

Yes ? And a people’s vote would differ how ?

Ps Just to clarify, i was saying I refuse to call it a people’s vote as per Ian’s post trying to differentiate beteeen the two. They’re one in the same

 

[Sick Boy]

The whole thing is such a mess, I can’t see the divisions being repaired for decades. To be honest though I can see both sides uniting in their anger at those in charge at some point.

 

[SIR ERNIE]

So what is a referendum by definition?

The definition I have is 'a general vote by the electorate on a single political question which has been referred to them for a direct decision'.

How can you justify a second referendum and assuming one did go ahead, what would you suggest the question should be?

 

[Ian1779]

PV is a second referendum in all but name ! people try to pretend it’s not by calling it that (I refuse to)

I don’t disagree with you - I’m not for a PV/2nd ref at all. We should really honour what was voted for. I fundamentally disagree with the policy agreed at conference, and I think Corbyn will do everything he can to avoid getting to the point of supporting it. We all know it’s electoral suicide.

 

[Grendel]

God - I’ve just put BBC 2 on for politics live and the EU’s biggest supporter the blood stained Blair creature was there. He looks very yellow and strange.

 

[Ian1779]

That’s rubbish, she was trying to fudge a deal that was acceptable to the EU and also would command a majorly in the commons, knowing labour would vote against she has to try to please her party...do the numbers

Corbyn hasn’t wanted a deal because he wants a GE....that’s politicising ! Even labour are confirming it.

So To appease her party... above what is right for the country. Politicising at its very finest. In fact the whole reason we had a referendum was because of trying to save their own party. Now we have this mess.

Of course he wants a GE, do you think people can survive another 4 years of Tory cruelty?

 

[Grendel]

The Blair creature is on because labour now refuse to participate in a debate on the issue of Brexit. My oh my perhaps he should make a comeback

 

[Ian1779]

The Blair creature is on because labour now refuse to participate in a debate on the issue of Brexit. My oh my perhaps he should make a comeback

You’ve gone full Dan Hodges.

 

[Grendel]

You’ve gone full Dan Hodges.

You must find it somewhat odd that a man whose pretty happy to talk to mass murderers on British soil with no caveats is refusing to talk to the Prime Minister

 

[clint van damme]

The Blair creature is on because labour now refuse to participate in a debate on the issue of Brexit. My oh my perhaps he should make a comeback

Yet earlier he said no deal had to be taken off the table. What a hypocrite that man is.
They should have a referendum on whether he should be in the Hague or not.

 

[fernandopartridge]

That’s rubbish, she was trying to fudge a deal that was acceptable to the EU and also would command a majorly in the commons, knowing labour would vote against she has to try to please her party...do the numbers

Corbyn hasn’t wanted a deal because he wants a GE....that’s politicising ! Even labour are confirming it.

She invented the red lines and has stuck to them. She's a fucking idiot.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

How would it fit in given the timescales involved?

The situation at hand right now wouldn't allow it as the Electoral recommend at least 6 months to organise a referendum, taking that and Government's recommendation, you need at least 6-12 months.

With the chaos in Parliament over Brexit, it wouldn't surprise anyone if a GE was called. Frankly, May should've called one when Dominic Raab (and others) resigned and it became obvious she'd face a vote of no confidence from her own MPs and that her deal would be rejected by Parliament. William Hague, who accurately predicted May would call an election in 2017, reckons there will be another election too and the Financial Times believes 3 cabinet ministers (unnamed) who believe a GE is possible in 2019 too. This becomes a probable option if no consensus can be reached in the coming days as May prepares her 'Plan B'. If a GE is called, Article 50 will have to be extended and that opens up a can of worms of how long we extend it for and whether or not we stand candidates in European Elections if it is extended beyond May 23rd 2019.

It's certainly an exciting time in politics and the outcomes are very unpredictable.

Subscribe to read | Financial Times -- there's one outlet and there are others out there too.

 

[skybluetony176]

As someone who voted remain, I do have some sympathy for this view.

Imagine I came to buy your second hand car off you and I started negotiations by saying, "OK, just before we start let me just tell you that I'm definitely going to buy your car, I won't be walking away without a deal. Right, what's your best price?" Seems a bit of a weak hand to me.

The situation we’re in is more akin to needing a car to drive to work in the morning when there isn’t another car anywhere for sale and the person selling this one and only car knows we need it.

It doesn’t matter how much we use the “we’ll just walk away bluff” brexit by it’s very nature calls that bluff long before we use it. Merely using it weakens our hand because it’s an admission that we’re bereft on any genuine, practical and workable ideas on how to get through the situation we’ve volunteered ourselves for.

 

[Captain Dart]

The Blair creature is on because labour now refuse to participate in a debate on the issue of Brexit. My oh my perhaps he should make a comeback

Mad Gordon is sticking his oar in, too.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

How can you justify a second referendum and assuming one did go ahead, what would you suggest the question should be?

There's an array of options. First, a simple 'in or out' ref. Second, two-stage referendum (current deal v no deal if Leave won again). Third, an AV or STV method of voting with Remain, deal and no deal on the ballot paper. My personal preference is a two-stage referendum.

 

[Ian1779]

You must find it somewhat odd that a man whose pretty happy to talk to mass murderers on British soil with no caveats is refusing to talk to the Prime Minister

So you wheeled that catchphrase straight out of the Mike Gapes playbook then?

He has asked for her to drop no-deal - she doesn’t want to as she wants to use it as a threat to push through her crap deal. You know all of this, but instead you rinse and repeat the diatribe peddled about from those who only care about stopping Corbyn irrespective of the consequences. Good to see you have measured priorities.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

It’s a solution that would destroy democracy in this country for ever

Rubbish we’d get over it

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Can those of you closer to this, explain to a 'thickie' like me, why it's important for no deal to be taken off the table before they'll speak?

Taking aside that some of you do or don't want Brexit, I do get it. I can also see why lots are opposed to no deal. However, assuming that Brexit will still happen in some shape or form, how can it be sensible to announce that no deal isn't an option as it surely weakens any bargaining power if we're to go back to the EU and ask for more to get a deal through. Even if secretly they don't want it, the threat of it being there might surely help achieve a better UK deal, so what am I missing?

Ta

Cos of the economic impact

 

[skybluetony176]

Mad Gordon is sticking his oar in, too.

This isn’t even new news. Gordon Brown suggested this solution last year and he wasn’t the first.

It is an interesting suggestion though and does have a recent history of working. The process to overturn of Irish Abortion laws for instance was started by a Citizens Assembly.

 

[Johnnythespider]

How can you justify a second referendum and assuming one did go ahead, what would you suggest the question should be?

Were we right to have the first referendum ? Yes or No

 

[Johnnythespider]

God - I’ve just put BBC 2 on for politics live and the EU’s biggest supporter the blood stained Blair creature was there. He looks very yellow and strange.

Liverish my mom called it, might add him to my death 2019 list

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

It leaves May‘s deal, GE or second referendum. Or the mystery plan, plan B. May‘s deal is dead. Corbyn wants a GE, or if that fails, his party will probably go for a second referendum. May is snookered if she agrees to take no deal off the table. Corbyn would take a CU. But, that sounds like cake and eat it. Don’t think anyone would like that. Too close to the EU for leavers, pointless from the point of view of remain. May as well be in the EU.

Easiest is to cancel article 50. People would not be happy unless that was done after a second referendum confirming remain. Some would still be unhappy, but many are unhappy with leave.

What a mess.

Yep another good summary