The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (136 Viewers)

[martcov]

People like you, no.

I certainly wouldn’t work together to crash the country. The more the Brexit fiasco carries on the more it’s failings become obvious.

 

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[martcov]

Only absolute nutters vote from someone other than the big two/three parties in FPTP.

You can tell this because all the Remainers voted Labour in 2017 despite Labour saying they’d honour the referendum.

Labour said they accepted the result, but wanted to remain in a customs union. For a remainer that is better than a free for all Brexit as proposed by the ERG or an out of the SM, CU and ECJ proposed by May.

 

[martcov]

I love getting lectured on impartiality by someone who isn’t impartial themself. Everyone has their biases.

Yes. At least I get out there and say what I want and why. I don’t pretend to be neutral.

 

[Captain Dart]

Liberals agreeing not to stand in seats where they'd split the vote against Conservatives

Like a suicide pact that one party ratted on. LOL

 

[SIR ERNIE]

A Farage party will have as much success as Farage himself under FPTP. He has the backing of the Brexit press, especially the Daily Express, but he is so toxic for „ normal“ voters, any party he is involved with won’t win any seats in U.K. elections.

If we’ve not left by the time of the next GE, a serious, credible Brexit Party headed by anyone including Farage would wreak havoc for the two major parties, especially Labour imo, whose MPs in no way reflect the views of their constituents on Brexit.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

If we’ve not left by the time of the next GE, a serious, credible Brexit Party headed by anyone including Farage would wreak havoc for the two major parties, especially Labour imo, whose MPs in no way reflect the views of their constituents on Brexit.

What would constitute as ‘wrecking havoc’, UKIP did that in 2015, and still only won one seat.

 

[skybluetony176]

Anyhoo. Meanwhile back in the real world.

Haulage firms 'face no-deal disaster'

 

[martcov]

If we’ve not left by the time of the next GE, a serious, credible Brexit Party headed by anyone including Farage would wreak havoc for the two major parties, especially Labour imo, whose MPs in no way reflect the views of their constituents on Brexit.

A second referendum would actually be better for leavers if you are right as it bypasses representative democracy and asks the voter directly.

 

[martcov]

Anyhoo. Meanwhile back in the real world.

Haulage firms 'face no-deal disaster'

The permit thing is simmering on a back burner. I import small quantities of beer and cider from the UK. We had difficulty recently about transportation of alcohol. The existing firm said they weren’t bothering any more with alcohol. Apparently something to do with an extra license for that. I can see small companies having trouble finding hauliers to the continent in the future and just not bothering because of the extra costs that will mean, or transport costs and red tape will increase my import price so that I won’t bother importing.

I mentioned the hauliers in my interview with Reuters which has been syndicated. It was on GermanTV on Sunday. The UK is seen here as chaotic and not able to say what it exactly wants. The public cannot understand why the UK is causing harm to itself. Which is why the media is asking Brits how they feel about it.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Yes. At least I get out there and say what I want and why. I don’t pretend to be neutral.

I’m always sceptical of someone claiming to crusade in the name ‘the truth’ or someone who claims to be solely impartial.

A second referendum would actually be better for leavers if you are right as it bypasses representative democracy and asks the voter directly.

Precisely. The referendum of 2016 agreed in principle that the UK should leave the referendum. This is legitimate and a valid outcome. However, the interpretation of what that means is unclear and the implication of the vagueness of Brexit is Parliamentary deadlock. Parties and MPs just cannot agree on the next course of action. Yes, there’s an unrepresentative Parliament in the sense that most MPs voted Remain. But, you’ve got most of the backbench Brexiteer Tory MPs also voting against May’s deal because they don’t believe it’s an ‘authentic’ Brexit.

 

[Grendel]

A second referendum would actually be better for leavers if you are right as it bypasses representative democracy and asks the voter directly.

Yes which option of leave the public prefer as the original referendum result was always confirmed as being honoured

So a range of options should be available and the public decide the leave option which best suits

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Yes which option of leave the public prefer as the original referendum result was always confirmed as being honoured

So a range of options should be available and the public decide the leave option which best suits

Why not have a two stage referendum? Remain vs Leave and if Leave won (if it is truly the ‘will of people’, it will), then a run off between ‘no deal’ and whatever the deal is on the table.

If there’s a referendum, a Remain option will be on the ballot, we all know that.

 

[Grendel]

Why not have a two stage referendum? Remain vs Leave and if Leave won (if it is truly the ‘will of people’, it will), then a run off between ‘no deal’ and whatever the deal is on the table.

If there’s a referendum, a Remain option will be on the ballot, we all know that.

Because we’ve already had the decision which the government of the day committed to make happen

The only reason it’s on there is to usurp the original decision as people don’t like it

 

[Deleted member 5849]

as people don’t like it

Fancy letting people have a say...

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Because we’ve already had the decision which the government of the day committed to make happen

The only reason it’s on there is to usurp the original decision as people don’t like it

Do you really think that proposal will pass through Parliament? Let’s not kid ourselves, it wouldn’t.

My proposal or a so-called ‘People’s Vote’ would pass through Parliament if a major party would lend its weight to it.

Tories aren’t going for a CU, so Labour wont support it. The Government is trying again in the hope of wooing the DUP and Tory Rebels by promising to end the backstop. The EU and Irish Government have all said no to a renegotiation today. Parliament is going to veto the prospect of a no deal.

Let’s have an honest and frank exchange of ideas, what is next? Personally, I can’t really see an alternative to a second referendum.

 

[shmmeee]

It’s the red lines causing the problems. Put them all up to a parliamentary vote (end FoM, no ECJ, Irish border, etc). At least one is bound to fall and open up some wiggle room in negotiations.

Either that or we draw a great big white line down the country with leavers one side, remainers the other and everyone does what they want. Probably makes sense logistically if we give the leavers Scotland and the North and remainers take the South East.

 

[Grendel]

Do you really think that proposal will pass through Parliament? Let’s not kid ourselves, it wouldn’t.

My proposal or a so-called ‘People’s Vote’ would pass through Parliament if a major party would lend its weight to it.

Tories aren’t going for a CU, so Labour wont support it. The Government is trying again in the hope of wooing the DUP and Tory Rebels by promising to end the backstop. The EU and Irish Government have all said no to a renegotiation today. Parliament is going to veto the prospect of a no deal.

Let’s have an honest and frank exchange of ideas, what is next? Personally, I can’t really see an alternative to a second referendum.

That’s not what I’m saying what I’m saying is that despite all your words all you want is a reversal of a decision which was promised as binding

There is no reason why a discussion of what sort of leave the public wants and go from there

 

[Astute]

You’re completely sweeping that allegation under the carpe.

You are so pro Labour that you want nothing said against them.

Why don't you check the history on the subject. He kept bringing up antisemitism in the Labour party. He kept bringing up much more. He has reported the allegation himself to someone independent. Something the Labour party refused to do.

And while people like you defend those in the Labour party and deflect onto those who report them for it when it is clearly known about it will.continue to happen.

 

[shmmeee]

You are so pro Labour that you want nothing said against them.

Why don't you check the history on the subject. He kept bringing up antisemitism in the Labour party. He kept bringing up much more. He has reported the allegation himself to someone independent. Something the Labour party refused to do.

And while people like you defend those in the Labour party and deflect onto those who report them for it when it is clearly known about it will.continue to happen.

There’s some really shitty anti-semetism on the left (nothing like the right bit still), but Woodcock was doing it all for politicial reasons, he’s been one of the shittier anti-Corbyn MPs.

I’m sure he’s a lovely bloke in person, but not sure that’s really relevant. He’s clearly got an axe to grind.

 

[Mr Panda]

Plan B = Plan A.

Brexit is just not happening is it?

 

[Astute]

0

There’s some really shitty anti-semetism on the left (nothing like the right bit still), but Woodcock was doing it all for politicial reasons, he’s been one of the shittier anti-Corbyn MPs.

I’m sure he’s a lovely bloke in person, but not sure that’s really relevant. He’s clearly got an axe to grind.

Axe to grind?

Do some research on him. He stands up for anyone who needs him. He has never been afraid to speak out. One of the rare MP's these days who became one to make a difference.

 

[Grendel]

There’s some really shitty anti-semetism on the left (nothing like the right bit still), but Woodcock was doing it all for politicial reasons, he’s been one of the shittier anti-Corbyn MPs.

I’m sure he’s a lovely bloke in person, but not sure that’s really relevant. He’s clearly got an axe to grind.

Like Corbyn has an axe to grind with the Labour Party for most of the time he’s been in it

 

[martcov]

That’s not what I’m saying what I’m saying is that despite all your words all you want is a reversal of a decision which was promised as binding

There is no reason why a discussion of what sort of leave the public wants and go from there

Only problem is that the public doesn’t want leave. Only about half does. The other half, the bigger half, wants to remain.

 

[Grendel]

Only problem is that the public doesn’t want leave. Only about half does. The other half, the bigger half, wants to remain.

Which is irrelevant as the decision was made. Unless we agree to vote on it every year

 

[Astute]

Only problem is that the public doesn’t want leave. Only about half does. The other half, the bigger half, wants to remain.

The bigger 48% half :shifty:

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

You are so pro Labour that you want nothing said against them.

Why don't you check the history on the subject. He kept bringing up antisemitism in the Labour party. He kept bringing up much more. He has reported the allegation himself to someone independent. Something the Labour party refused to do.

And while people like you defend those in the Labour party and deflect onto those who report them for it when it is clearly known about it will.continue to happen.

So the allegations into his alleged sexual harassment of a colleague has nothing to do with it whatsoever?

Woodcock is the one who politicised the issue around a Corbyn-led Labour in a classic ‘deflect attention away from me’ manoeuvre. Ask yourself, how you would feel about this had you not been close to this man?

Jared O’Mara was caught out posting homophobic comments online, he resigned the whip. As did Fiona Onsanya for getting caught speeding and lied about who was behind the wheel. It’s commonplace for MPs to resign the whip (becoming independents) to avoid being disciplined by their party. It’s not political.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

That’s not what I’m saying what I’m saying is that despite all your words all you want is a reversal of a decision which was promised as binding

There is no reason why a discussion of what sort of leave the public wants and go from there

If a deal can’t get agreed and Parliament moves against a no deal scenario, what’s next?

I’m pretty sure when we had this discussion earlier in the thread, you believed the Government should announce its intention to leave without a deal if a deal cannot agree. Since Parliament is moving to block that possibility, what else can be done?

 

[Grendel]

So the allegations into his alleged sexual harassment of a colleague has nothing to do with it whatsoever?

Woodcock is the one who politicised the issue around a Corbyn-led Labour in a classic ‘deflect attention away from me’ manoeuvre. Ask yourself, how you would feel about this had you not been close to this man?

Jared O’Mara was caught out posting homophobic comments online, he resigned the whip. As did Fiona Onsanya for getting caught speeding and lied about who was behind the wheel. It’s commonplace for MPs to resign the whip (becoming independents) to avoid being disciplined by their party. It’s not political.

Onsanya certainly did not resign the whip. She was suspended immediately and refused to resign - its hardly the same comparing someone with a spurious allegation which to my knowledge was never investigated by police to someone found guilty of perverting the course of justice

 

[Grendel]

If a deal can’t get agreed and Parliament moves against a no deal scenario, what’s next?

I’m pretty sure when we had this discussion earlier in the thread, you believed the Government should announce its intention to leave without a deal if a deal cannot agree. Since Parliament is moving to block that possibility, what else can be done?

Yes we have - the government cannot block something it has no jurisdiction to do unless its saying it wants to completely revoke Article 50 which I do not think will happen

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Onsanya certainly did not resign the whip. She was suspended immediately and refused to resign - its hardly the same comparing someone with a spurious allegation which to my knowledge was never investigated by police to someone found guilty of perverting the course of justice

You’re right actually, I got mixed up with a few MPs who are now ‘independent’ and their circumstances. Ivan Lewis was also suspended for similar allegations than Woodcock and he also left the party.

Investigations against them won’t be conducted by the Labour Party if they’ve resigned the whip because they can’t be sanctioned.

I take the line that Woodcock and Lewis are innocent until proven guilty, for what it’s worth. But, these two MPs have effectively silenced complaints against them by resigning the whip.

 

[Grendel]

You’re right actually, I got mixed up with a few MPs who are now ‘independent’ and their circumstances. Ivan Lewis was also suspended for similar allegations than Woodcock and he also left the party.

Investigations against them won’t be conducted by the Labour Party if they’ve resigned the whip because they can’t be sanctioned.

I take the line that Woodcock and Lewis are innocent until proven guilty, for what it’s worth. But, these two MPs have effectively silenced complaints against them by resigning the whip.

Why was the allegation against Woodcock not referred to the police?

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Yes we have - the government cannot block something it has no jurisdiction to do unless its saying it wants to completely revoke Article 50 which I do not think will happen

Parliament could vote to revoke Article 50 if it came to that. Honestly, Theresa May is constantly snookering herself and that’s the biggest hinderance to Brexit at the moment. She really should just call another election, as it can’t get any worse for her even if the Tories lost seats — the chance of a surprise majority has got to be appealing though.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Why was the allegation against Woodcock not referred to the police?

Good question, you’d have to ask the complainant. Equally, you could ask why didn’t they face allegations if they were innocent? I’ll reiterate: they’re innocent until proven guilty in my eyes.

This is detracting from the issue that they didn’t leave because of Corbyn, because party leaders come and go, they left because of the allegations against them and their subsequent investigations.

 

[Captain Dart]

As did Fiona Onsanya for getting caught speeding and lied about who was behind the wheel. It’s commonplace for MPs to resign the whip (becoming independents) to avoid being disciplined by their party. It’s not political.

Will be interested to see how this pans out..

Fiona Onasanya will find out her sentence for perverting the course of justice later this month. The MP for Peterborough will be sentenced on January 29, with any custodial sentence of a year or more (including if it is suspended) meaning she will lose her seat. Any custodial or suspended sentence of less than a year which is not appealed would automatically trigger a recall petition.

If 10 per cent of her constituents signed it within six weeks, Ms Onasanya would lose her seat and a by-election would be triggered, which she could stand in. Ms Onasanya had 28 days to challenge the unanimous decision by a jury at the Old Bailey which has seen her expelled by the Labour Party. That deadline passed today. Despite repeated requests for comment she has failed to answer any questions from the Peterborough Telegraph relating to her trial. Ms Onasanya had strenuously denied lying about who was behind the wheel of her Nissan Micra when it was caught speeding in Thorney in July 2017 - but after a retrial lasting one week a jury returned a unanimous guilty verdict. The jury in the first trial was unable to return a verdict.

Read more at: Date set for Peterborough MP Fiona Onasanya to be sentenced for perverting the course of justice

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Will be interested to see how this pans out..

Fiona Onasanya will find out her sentence for perverting the course of justice later this month. The MP for Peterborough will be sentenced on January 29, with any custodial sentence of a year or more (including if it is suspended) meaning she will lose her seat. Any custodial or suspended sentence of less than a year which is not appealed would automatically trigger a recall petition. Peterborough MP Fiona Onasanya departs by taxi from the Old Bailey in central London after she was found guilty of perverting the course of justice following a retrial for lying to police to avoid a speeding charge. Picture: Dominic Lipinski/PA Wire Peterborough MP Fiona Onasanya departs by taxi from the Old Bailey in central London after she was found guilty of perverting the course of justice following a retrial for lying to police to avoid a speeding charge. Picture: Dominic Lipinski/PA Wire If 10 per cent of her constituents signed it within six weeks, Ms Onasanya would lose her seat and a by-election would be triggered, which she could stand in. Ms Onasanya had 28 days to challenge the unanimous decision by a jury at the Old Bailey which has seen her expelled by the Labour Party. That deadline passed today. Despite repeated requests for comment she has failed to answer any questions from the Peterborough Telegraph relating to her trial. Ms Onasanya had strenuously denied lying about who was behind the wheel of her Nissan Micra when it was caught speeding in Thorney in July 2017 - but after a retrial lasting one week a jury returned a unanimous guilty verdict. The jury in the first trial was unable to return a verdict.

Read more at: Date set for Peterborough MP Fiona Onasanya to be sentenced for perverting the course of justice

The result of the by-election will be interesting, yes.