Sol Campbell (3 Viewers)

[ajsccfc]

Even Gareth Southgate couldn't get a decent club after being bombed out at Middlesbrough in his first job and had to come back via age group teams
Lampard, Gerrard and John Terry are the exceptions

Southgate would really have to be included in the exceptions too, his first job was a Premier League club that he literally wasn't qualified for

 

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[rob9872]

Terry is a number 2 btw not a manager. Gerrard is in Scotland, similar to John Barnes getting the Celtic gig with no experience (and could be argued they were from a much loftier competitive position. Lampard is the exception but having only just retired and having current connections at Chelsea's they can tap in to (see Mount and Tomori) then it's an understandable offer when he can bring so much.

 

[better days]

Southgate would really have to be included in the exceptions too, his first job was a Premier League club that he literally wasn't qualified for

Maybe but Southgate was always thought to be a future leader by most other managers from his time as a player
And he displayed loyalty and maturity during his career
In contrast Campbell ran his contract down at Spurs to go to their worst enemies round the corner then a few years later walked out of the ground at half time when he was having a nightmare for Arsenal against Bobby Zamora
Behaviour towards others matters
That's why Clough never got the England job

 

[Joy Division]

Aside from there only being one black manager in the Premier League (a league that has a make up of 33% black-british players)
of all the 78 total clubs in the top leagues in Spain, Germany, Italy and France, as far as I am aware the number of black coaches is two.

That is a massive massive problem, and anybody who thinks racism doesn't play a part here is firmly burying their head in the sand.

 

[rob9872]

Aside from there only being one black manager in the Premier League (a league that has a make up of 33% black-british players)
of all the 78 total clubs in the top leagues in Spain, Germany, Italy and France, as far as I am aware the number of black coaches is two.

That is a massive massive problem, and anybody who thinks racism doesn't play a part here is firmly burying their head in the sand.

But how many English managers? Because of the money, we are able to select from the cream of experienced successful coaches and managers around the world at that level. If no black guys have been given a chance then they wont have the experience or clout to have become successful and therefore chicken and egg scenario. The pool isn't there yet for the top teams to pick from.

As I said previously, cant remember if it was on this thread or another time it was raised, but if we're sitting here in a generation and the same stats then something is clearly wrong, but since most coaches are ex-players and a generation ago there weren't many BAME players, then despite there being 25% or 33% or whatever the current stat is of BAME players, you wouldn't expect the same for managers. In a generation the chances are that BAME figure will rise again but equally at that stage I'd expect the manager which will have come from the current crop of players to have increased in line and therefore eg 25% of NEW managers should also be representative.

Look at the pundits on tv - they've gone too far with women imo, but that's a whole different agenda however I'd say BAME groups are fairly represented in that area.

 

[Skybluefaz]

Look at the pundits on tv - they've gone too far with women imo, but that's a whole different agenda however I'd say BAME groups are fairly represented in that area.

If they let Martin Keown and Robbie Savage on as pundits anyone is fair game.

Human or animal

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Have to honestly say that I have just never seen it in my own experience. Yes a few knuckledraggers at games or pissed wankers in pubs, but that's it.

Of course we have a society which fails to make the most of the skills and talents of its various ethnic minorities. Nobody disputes that. What I do dispute is that there is deliberate, systematic racial discrimination on a widespread basis.

But surely those top two sentences contradict each other. They may be knuckledraggers at games but it's still you experiencing it, and it's those type of people that are largely responsible. Never got the 'pissed up' excuse either - you don't suddenly change your opinions due to alcohol, just lose your inhibitions to state what you already think at some level but control when sober.

Again, how widespread it is often depends on where you live and hang around with. I don't tend to see it but I live in middle-class suburbia and I have to admit it is far more white than the average population (although from what I can tell those of minority background aren't treated differently, but they may say different because there are people who do it that I don't see).

If I lived somewhere more inner city or somewhere like Foleshill then it may well be more widespread and visible.

The trouble is that you get a few idiots that racially abuse minorities, and understandably those minorities may well as a defence mechanism act in a way perceived more threatening towards white people. This can then gives the impression that minorites are racist towards whites and the problem escalates from a very small base. I've no doubt that the same situation reversed occurs in white-minority countries as well.

There is definitely an issue were there are people that use the race/gender/sexuality 'card' as thier go-to argument. Just as you see the knuckle draggers arguing about immigration as an excuse for their own shortcomings, so do others use issues like race, sexism or homophobia to hide theirs. There's been a couple of women on the last series of HIGNFY who were just trying to shoehorn sexism into absolutely every question and even my sister was sitting they saying 'would you please just shut the fuck up'. It undermines the argument because it's being over-used and causes average people to just switch off when the argument is totally valid because it's 'boy (or girl) who cried wolf". Worse than that, it provides ammunition to those who are racist/homophobic/sexist that the issue is being blown out of all proportion or being fabricated. Like when you have women who falsely accuse someone of rape - it does so much damage to protecting women from sexual violence because it puts that shred of doubt into people's minds.

 

[NortonSkyBlue]

It's unfortunate that this thread has gone the way it has
Tony Adams was at least as good as Campbell and in the same era yet he had to start at Wycombe and only got the Portsmouth job once they were a basket case and he was assistant and in place when the manager went
Teddy Sherringham had to start at Stevenage and now Paul Scholes looks like he's going to Oldham
Even Gareth Southgate couldn't get a decent club after being bombed out at Middlesbrough in his first job and had to come back via age group teams
Lampard, Gerrard and John Terry are the exceptions

That is one way to look at it.
Tony Adams failed at Wycombe got a coaching job at premier league Portsmouth and was made manager.
Garett Southgate, poor love, was manager at premier league Middlesboro, who had just played in a European final.
Sheringham was forwards coach at West Ham before failing at Stevenage.
Paul Ince had to start at Macclesfield.
I see a pattern here. You see it differently.

 

[NortonSkyBlue]

Maybe but Southgate was always thought to be a future leader by most other managers from his time as a player
And he displayed loyalty and maturity during his career
In contrast Campbell ran his contract down at Spurs to go to their worst enemies round the corner then a few years later walked out of the ground at half time when he was having a nightmare for Arsenal against Bobby Zamora
Behaviour towards others matters
That's why Clough never got the England job

There is no more for me to say on the subject.

 

[stupot07]

If you didn't get advantage from certain private schools... why would anybody pay the money?

Definitely. Given that school population of private schools is only 7% of the school population, they disprotionately dominate top profressions. Its evidenced that that they get an advantage and Thats why people the money.

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[Covstu]

But how many English managers? Because of the money, we are able to select from the cream of experienced successful coaches and managers around the world at that level. If no black guys have been given a chance then they wont have the experience or clout to have become successful and therefore chicken and egg scenario. The pool isn't there yet for the top teams to pick from.

As I said previously, cant remember if it was on this thread or another time it was raised, but if we're sitting here in a generation and the same stats then something is clearly wrong, but since most coaches are ex-players and a generation ago there weren't many BAME players, then despite there being 25% or 33% or whatever the current stat is of BAME players, you wouldn't expect the same for managers. In a generation the chances are that BAME figure will rise again but equally at that stage I'd expect the manager which will have come from the current crop of players to have increased in line and therefore eg 25% of NEW managers should also be representative.

Look at the pundits on tv - they've gone too far with women imo, but that's a whole different agenda however I'd say BAME groups are fairly represented in that area.

Disagree Rob on the TV front, I am actually finding the female pundits and commentators quite refreshing. Sky sports have been doing it too with ex female footballers and it works.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Yep - don't mind the women. On the whole analysis is just as good/bad as the men. Hope they get used more on MOTD. Also fun to see what different hairstyle Sue Smith has each time - I can see her going bankrupt the amount she must spend on it.

 

[Grendel]

Definitely. Given that school population of private schools is only 7% of the school population, they disprotionately dominate top profressions. Its evidenced that that they get an advantage and Thats why people the money.

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The disparity is due to non state selection at 11

 

[better days]

That is one way to look at it.
Tony Adams failed at Wycombe got a coaching job at premier league Portsmouth and was made manager.
Garett Southgate, poor love, was manager at premier league Middlesboro, who had just played in a European final.
Sheringham was forwards coach at West Ham before failing at Stevenage.
Paul Ince had to start at Macclesfield.
I see a pattern here. You see it differently.

Actually I agree there should be more black managers and coaches and I sincerely hope we start to see a lot more black guys getting a chance
Chris Ramsey and Terry Connors were good guys who did get fairly big jobs where it didn't work out for them
Darren Moore is an impressive guy currently doing pretty well and Chris Powell has had a decent managerial career. I'm sure we'll see more guys coming through and doing well

 

[COVKIDSNEVERQUIT]

You are on my list

 

[itsabuzzard]

Just call it like i see it. And once again i am right

Of course Neil

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[itsabuzzard]

Ur just bitter because your ankles dont allow you to swim

I won't even ask.

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[Cranfield Sky Blue]

Right I skipped 10 pages to ask @Nick what has this got to do with CCFC?

 

[itsabuzzard]

if you are in relationship you should see all other females as your daughters,sisters or mothers(depending on their age)

stop lusting!

MILF

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[HuckerbyDublinWhelan]

I mean do we know the figures of how many BAME manager are applying for roles? I know Sol Campbell said he’s struggled, but I stand by I’m what I said on his position. Comments such as “I’m one of the greatest football minds” and an seemingly entitled expectation that he should get a top job, don’t endear him.

That being said, the manager merry go round has been a problem for years. I’d rather give someone new a go rather than Pardew and Mark Hughes. I understand why a Rooney rule is a good idea, but it’s not so much a minority thing for me, it would be helpful to move current chairmen mindset of going for the same managers over and over again

 

[Esoterica]

But how many English managers? Because of the money, we are able to select from the cream of experienced successful coaches and managers around the world at that level. If no black guys have been given a chance then they wont have the experience or clout to have become successful and therefore chicken and egg scenario. The pool isn't there yet for the top teams to pick from.

As I said previously, cant remember if it was on this thread or another time it was raised, but if we're sitting here in a generation and the same stats then something is clearly wrong, but since most coaches are ex-players and a generation ago there weren't many BAME players, then despite there being 25% or 33% or whatever the current stat is of BAME players, you wouldn't expect the same for managers. In a generation the chances are that BAME figure will rise again but equally at that stage I'd expect the manager which will have come from the current crop of players to have increased in line and therefore eg 25% of NEW managers should also be representative.

Look at the pundits on tv - they've gone too far with women imo, but that's a whole different agenda however I'd say BAME groups are fairly represented in that area.

Football doesn't work in generations, it is a constant production line of hundreds of players coming into and leaving the game every year. There were many black players in the Premier League even 20 years ago, we had Dublin, Williams, Shaw, Paul Hall, Marcus Hall, Boateng in our squad then. Leaving it for another 'generation' and hoping it just rights itself naturally is sticking your head in the sand.

 

[shmmeee]

Where in the funnel are we losing black players? Are they not getting badges? Not getting coaching appointments? Not getting managers jobs?

Is there a load of qualified black guys sitting around at far lower levels? In a game as competitive as football, when we are short on coaches in this country anyway, that would really surprise me. Are black players put off even training as coaches after a career in the game tells them not to bother?

 

[NortonSkyBlue]

Where in the funnel are we losing black players? Are they not getting badges? Not getting coaching appointments? Not getting managers jobs?

Is there a load of qualified black guys sitting around at far lower levels? In a game as competitive as football, when we are short on coaches in this country anyway, that would really surprise me. Are black players put off even training as coaches after a career in the game tells them not to bother?

Interesting questions!

 

[Skybluefaz]

Where in the funnel are we losing black players? Are they not getting badges? Not getting coaching appointments? Not getting managers jobs?

Is there a load of qualified black guys sitting around at far lower levels? In a game as competitive as football, when we are short on coaches in this country anyway, that would really surprise me. Are black players put off even training as coaches after a career in the game tells them not to bother?

There is effort going into supporting BAME grassroots coaches. The guy who tutored my FA Level one recently said that he mentors BAME coaches specifically.

 

[shmmeee]

There is effort going into supporting BAME grassroots coaches. The guy who tutored my FA Level one recently said that he mentors BAME coaches specifically.

I’d love to see some numbers.

Found this from 2014: Why are there so few black football managers?

Says that black players are less likely to go into coaching and suggests it’s because they know they won’t get a chance.

Some kind of fund to get black players near the end of their career their badges and something like the Rooney Rule seems the best way to address it if that’s the case.

 

[skybluegod]

Well simply because they can. It’s a status thing.

It’s clearly also a better system than comprehensive education which brings you down to the lowest common denominator - elitism has grown due to the closure of schools that allowed selection in the state. Now it’s a race to the bottom.

If you didn't get advantage from certain private schools... why would anybody pay the money?

TBF, I can offer a good perspective on this, Northern Wisdom is correct, Private Schools to prepare students much better than state schools.

I went to Rugby School, 4 year ago, and the level of coaching/interview technique is to a very high standard, with lots of outside people brought in to help the process.

On the other hand my Girlfriend who went to Rugby High, and friends at Lawrence Sheriff have said that their preparation for such interviews/applications to oxbridge is non-existent.

However, I both Rugby High and Lawrence Sheriff have had more entries than Rugby School into Oxbridge in the last 4 years.

 

[Grendel]

TBF, I can offer a good perspective on this, Northern Wisdom is correct, Private Schools to prepare students much better than state schools.

I went to Rugby School, 4 year ago, and the level of coaching/interview technique is to a very high standard, with lots of outside people brought in to help the process.

On the other hand my Girlfriend who went to Rugby High, and friends at Lawrence Sheriff have said that their preparation for such interviews/applications to oxbridge is non-existent.

However, I both Rugby High and Lawrence Sheriff have had more entries than Rugby School into Oxbridge in the last 4 years.

Lawrence Sherriff is in essence a private school by all but name as it’s selective - it’s high in achievement and those who qualify often migrate to it from the Coventry School Foundation institutions

As you say it’s high achieving and shows the abolition of state education was an abject failure by the socialist comrades (who continued to selectively educate their own off spring)

 

[Dimi_Konstantflapalot]

Yep - don't mind the women. On the whole analysis is just as good/bad as the men. Hope they get used more on MOTD. Also fun to see what different hairstyle Sue Smith has each time - I can see her going bankrupt the amount she must spend on it.

Would largely agree with that. However there are some really, really bang average pundits out there annoyingly - both men and women. I find Jamie Redknapp and Alex Scott as bad as each other on Sky. Merson gets a gig purely because it's funny for simpletons when he mispronounces a foreign name

 

[skybluegod]

Lawrence Sherriff is in essence a private school by all but name as it’s selective - it’s high in achievement and those who qualify often migrate to it from the Coventry School Foundation institutions

As you say it’s high achieving and shows the abolition of state education was an abject failure by the socialist comrades (who continued to selectively educate their own off spring)

Being selective does not mean it is private In all but name. They also don't have a large amount of Coventry students... they do have some but it isn't a large proportion.

 

[better days]

Thiery Henry has been suspended, probably ahead of being sacked tonight

A stark example of how football operates

However magnificent you were as a player you'll be given no leeway as a manager unless you win games

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Being selective does not mean it is private In all but name. They also don't have a large amount of Coventry students... they do have some but it isn't a large proportion.

More Grendalisms I'm afraid.

And btw, Rugby School? Posh? ...or scolarship?

 

[Grendel]

Being selective does not mean it is private In all but name. They also don't have a large amount of Coventry students... they do have some but it isn't a large proportion.

Essentially it does as many grammar schools that didn’t survive the cull of the socialist mafia of the late 70’s were given some tax exemptions to become “private” - the two in Coventry being prime examples - some boroughs held onto grammar status but the act of selection on ability at 11 is the same

 

[skybluegod]

More Grendalisms I'm afraid.

And btw, Rugby School? Posh? ...or scolarship?

Hahaha, neither! Old man works there, so huge reduction of fees!

 

[skybluegod]

Essentially it does as many grammar schools that didn’t survive the cull of the socialist mafia of the late 70’s were given some tax exemptions to become “private” - the two in Coventry being prime examples - some boroughs held onto grammar status but the act of selection on ability at 11 is the same

Again no it doesn't... there is more to being a private school than simply being selective.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Again no it doesn't... there is more to being a private school than simply being selective.

What he's actually doing is confirming time and time again that Abbott is intelligent. Thus adding weight to the original premise...