shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Did the Rotherham girls consent to sex?
Shamima Begum Not Allowed Back. (4 Viewers)
- Thread starter pastythegreat
- Start date
Did the Rotherham girls consent to sex?
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
Excellent Facebook post. Gone viral but worth placing here
edit: This has come up a lot, so before we get started, know that Begum's father is not known to be involved in extremism (you're thinking of Amira Abase), and Shamima Begum is unrelated to Sharmeena Begum. On the flipside, Begum's mother did not die of cancer and that is not why she was vulnerable to brainwashing. Agree or disagree with the body of this post, but both sides of the debate have started to just post full-on lies to make their position seem obvious, and it's wearing thin. The whole point is it's complicated.
Also, please remember this is a Facebook post intended for a small audience that ended up going a bit mad. My Facebook page is like my house: if I've invited you in, you'd better not shit on my floor. Discuss, but play nice. Any hate speech or aggression WILL be reported.
All cool? Lovely. Then let's begin.
***
I'm super horrified by so many responses to the incredibly complicated Shamima Begum case (including by some people on my FB list tbh). "It's ISIS, even a 15 year old should know how dreadful a group ISIS is", "She shows no remorse", and "She's a threat to national security" seem to be the most common problematic responses. I've been listening to Rukmini Callimachi's phenomenal podcast Caliphate again recently - so largely for my own sanity, I'm gonna break these down based on what I've learned.
1) You gotta understand that ISIS has an entire recruitment strategy based around taking vulnerable Muslim children - kids who feel isolated and out of place and insecure about their faith - and making them feel like they have a new family. They hang out on message boards and groom kids, in the same way child sex offenders do. Over time, they paint ISIS as the misunderstood side of the story. Illustrate how they've been turned into the boogieman by the West. Show how Western society will never appreciate them they way ISIS does. They make lonely kids feel safe and wanted and make their home nation seem like the real enemy.
Then - here's the genius bit - having spent the past however long praising them for their faith, they then start to cast doubts in their mind. "Wait, you didn't know you were supposed to reject those around you who aren't Muslim? Have you even read the Quran? Maybe you don't understand this as much as we thought you did..." They make vulnerable kids feel safe and welcome for the first time in their life, then play on their insecurities to get them to fall in line. They employ professional recruiters to carry out this strategy. It's a dastardly sales technique, masterful psychological manipulation. Begum may have known what she was doing, but she didn't fully understand why.
2) Once you're in ISIS, their MO is essentially threefold, two of which are relevant here. One, they break down your empathy. Two, they convince you that everything they're asking you to do is religiously justified.
So they have counsellors who coach you through the process of leaving behind your family. Who teach you how to suppress any feelings of shame. For the men, who sign up for battle, they walk you through the emotions you're gonna feel when you first kill someone. They start you off in the slaughterhouse, then they have realistic mannequins that you kill, then you do your first kill as part of a firing squad, and all along there are people whose job it is to work with your emotions with the goal of removing your ability to fucking *feel* anything.
You're living in a community of people who are constantly showing you how the group's actions are justified. They have educated acedemics, who teach you how to interpret certain sections of the Quran in new ways. Remember, you're a vulnerable, probably uneducated kid. They use that authority to convince you. And there's no one around to help you challenge that. Over time, as your emotions are worn down, you grow to believe that to show remorse would be sacreligious anyway. It is a tremendously common thing among new ISIS defectors, to have realised there are problems with ISIS and to want to leave, while refusing to accept that you regret joining and supporting them in the first place. Radicalisation takes time to deprogram.
3) Yeah, maybe she is a threat to national security. Who knows? I have to trust that the correct procedures will be followed to ascertain this, and that if she is, she will receive a custodial sentence, just like other people who are a threat to national security or those around them.
But to strip her of her citizenship? That's playing into ISIS' hands.
Remember I said their MO is threefold? The third thing they do is they make you believe that no one outside of ISIS will ever take them back. It's how they get people to stay for long enough to break them. They take vulnerable, isolated children, and make them believe that ISIS is the only place they will ever again be safe and loved. And every time a country behaves like this to one of their own citizens, you can be sure that becomes propaganda material. "Look at the callous, uncaring West, rejecting unhappy Muslim kids yet again."
The way we break ISIS' propaganda and programming strategy is by proving it to be demonstrably false. Let Begum be tried in a court of law if needs be. But for goodness sake, bring her back, and show some fucking humanity. She was a child. She was groomed and brainwashed and programmed and had her entire sense of self destroyed and rebuilt by a murderous cult. To say she asked for it, that she deserves what she got, is the height of victim blaming.
I implore anyone who hasn't listened to Caliphate to do so - it's an extraordinary bit of reporting, phenomenal insight into a group that has surprisingly complex ways of operating, and how they managed to get tens of thousands of troubled kids to join up with them. It's terrifying, but I think it explains a lot of this really well.
***
Couple of updates.
1) Welp, this went a bit viral, that's a surprise. In light of this I want to clarify two things that have been strangely misconstrued a few times.
One: You can feel free to take this as a complete and utter rejection of ISIS and its beliefs and and behaviours. It is a terrorist group, a fake state that has only ever existed to expand and exert power, in the name of a religion that almost exclusively rejects its ideologies. ISIS has done, and continues to do, awful things, one of which is to employ sophisticated indoctrination techniques to convince young and vulnerable children to join its ranks. This makes it an enormously complicated situation - because in a very real sense, they are both criminals and victims.
Two: I have no idea whether or not Begum is a security threat. The correct way to deal with this, if there is a suspicion that she is, would be to put her on trial. Due process can then be followed to determine the best way to deal with the situation in order to protect the wider population. All I know is that ISIS indoctrinates children and that, in this sense, she is a victim. In any case, she is not just being treated as guilty before being proven so, but ripped of her citizenship - something so fundamentally a part of a human being's rights - before there has been any attempt to understand the circumstances of her joining ISIS, and pretty much exclusively because of the media attention on her specifically (and not the hundreds of other people who have been allowed to return from the IS and keep their citizenship). That's what is at issue here.
2) The foreign minister of Bangladesh has just now released a statement saying Begum cannot claim Bangladeshi citizenship. This means that if the UK proceeds with its plans to revoke her British citizenship, Begum will be stateless. This means she will not legally be able to settle anywhere on the planet. It is to sentence her to life as either a refugee or a criminal. It is also in breach of international law but I honestly think that's beside the point.
***
Additional update: People are getting muddled in the comments between this case and another case of a British Muslim who left to join ISIS, around the same time, who has a similar name. There is no evidence that Shamima Begum's family were in any way involved with or supportive of ISIS or Islamic extremism. You are thinking of someone else.
***
On Begum's citizenship, and that of others like her...
For anyone interested in knowing more about how the process of stripping someone of their citizenship works, this is a great article to read: https://threadreaderapp.com/.../1098150749454983168.html...
The article explains how the law essentially permits the Home Secretary to strip anyone of their citizenship, without trial or prosecution, ONLY IF they have foreign ancestry.
If Begum were a white British girl with British parents and British grandparents, the Government would not be legally allowed to deny her the right to return - even though she would be no more or less a British citizen than she is now.
Indeed, it is spurious whether or not the Government is acting legally now, as the law provides only for the UK to revoke her citizenship if it has "reason to believe" she is eligible for citizenship elsewhere. We are now in a stand-off with Bangladesh, both nations saying "nope" - but as Begum is a British citizen, it is Britain's responsibility to sort this mess out, under UN law.
But - this may interest some of you - the article also explains how revoking the citizenship of British ISIS supporters, thus making them theoretically stateless, poses a fundamental security risk at home and abroad: because it means that no nation has any legal jurisdiction over that person, and no nation has a responsibility to convict and punish them for their crimes.
It's well worth a read.
edit: This has come up a lot, so before we get started, know that Begum's father is not known to be involved in extremism (you're thinking of Amira Abase), and Shamima Begum is unrelated to Sharmeena Begum. On the flipside, Begum's mother did not die of cancer and that is not why she was vulnerable to brainwashing. Agree or disagree with the body of this post, but both sides of the debate have started to just post full-on lies to make their position seem obvious, and it's wearing thin. The whole point is it's complicated.
Also, please remember this is a Facebook post intended for a small audience that ended up going a bit mad. My Facebook page is like my house: if I've invited you in, you'd better not shit on my floor. Discuss, but play nice. Any hate speech or aggression WILL be reported.
All cool? Lovely. Then let's begin.
***
I'm super horrified by so many responses to the incredibly complicated Shamima Begum case (including by some people on my FB list tbh). "It's ISIS, even a 15 year old should know how dreadful a group ISIS is", "She shows no remorse", and "She's a threat to national security" seem to be the most common problematic responses. I've been listening to Rukmini Callimachi's phenomenal podcast Caliphate again recently - so largely for my own sanity, I'm gonna break these down based on what I've learned.
1) You gotta understand that ISIS has an entire recruitment strategy based around taking vulnerable Muslim children - kids who feel isolated and out of place and insecure about their faith - and making them feel like they have a new family. They hang out on message boards and groom kids, in the same way child sex offenders do. Over time, they paint ISIS as the misunderstood side of the story. Illustrate how they've been turned into the boogieman by the West. Show how Western society will never appreciate them they way ISIS does. They make lonely kids feel safe and wanted and make their home nation seem like the real enemy.
Then - here's the genius bit - having spent the past however long praising them for their faith, they then start to cast doubts in their mind. "Wait, you didn't know you were supposed to reject those around you who aren't Muslim? Have you even read the Quran? Maybe you don't understand this as much as we thought you did..." They make vulnerable kids feel safe and welcome for the first time in their life, then play on their insecurities to get them to fall in line. They employ professional recruiters to carry out this strategy. It's a dastardly sales technique, masterful psychological manipulation. Begum may have known what she was doing, but she didn't fully understand why.
2) Once you're in ISIS, their MO is essentially threefold, two of which are relevant here. One, they break down your empathy. Two, they convince you that everything they're asking you to do is religiously justified.
So they have counsellors who coach you through the process of leaving behind your family. Who teach you how to suppress any feelings of shame. For the men, who sign up for battle, they walk you through the emotions you're gonna feel when you first kill someone. They start you off in the slaughterhouse, then they have realistic mannequins that you kill, then you do your first kill as part of a firing squad, and all along there are people whose job it is to work with your emotions with the goal of removing your ability to fucking *feel* anything.
You're living in a community of people who are constantly showing you how the group's actions are justified. They have educated acedemics, who teach you how to interpret certain sections of the Quran in new ways. Remember, you're a vulnerable, probably uneducated kid. They use that authority to convince you. And there's no one around to help you challenge that. Over time, as your emotions are worn down, you grow to believe that to show remorse would be sacreligious anyway. It is a tremendously common thing among new ISIS defectors, to have realised there are problems with ISIS and to want to leave, while refusing to accept that you regret joining and supporting them in the first place. Radicalisation takes time to deprogram.
3) Yeah, maybe she is a threat to national security. Who knows? I have to trust that the correct procedures will be followed to ascertain this, and that if she is, she will receive a custodial sentence, just like other people who are a threat to national security or those around them.
But to strip her of her citizenship? That's playing into ISIS' hands.
Remember I said their MO is threefold? The third thing they do is they make you believe that no one outside of ISIS will ever take them back. It's how they get people to stay for long enough to break them. They take vulnerable, isolated children, and make them believe that ISIS is the only place they will ever again be safe and loved. And every time a country behaves like this to one of their own citizens, you can be sure that becomes propaganda material. "Look at the callous, uncaring West, rejecting unhappy Muslim kids yet again."
The way we break ISIS' propaganda and programming strategy is by proving it to be demonstrably false. Let Begum be tried in a court of law if needs be. But for goodness sake, bring her back, and show some fucking humanity. She was a child. She was groomed and brainwashed and programmed and had her entire sense of self destroyed and rebuilt by a murderous cult. To say she asked for it, that she deserves what she got, is the height of victim blaming.
I implore anyone who hasn't listened to Caliphate to do so - it's an extraordinary bit of reporting, phenomenal insight into a group that has surprisingly complex ways of operating, and how they managed to get tens of thousands of troubled kids to join up with them. It's terrifying, but I think it explains a lot of this really well.
***
Couple of updates.
1) Welp, this went a bit viral, that's a surprise. In light of this I want to clarify two things that have been strangely misconstrued a few times.
One: You can feel free to take this as a complete and utter rejection of ISIS and its beliefs and and behaviours. It is a terrorist group, a fake state that has only ever existed to expand and exert power, in the name of a religion that almost exclusively rejects its ideologies. ISIS has done, and continues to do, awful things, one of which is to employ sophisticated indoctrination techniques to convince young and vulnerable children to join its ranks. This makes it an enormously complicated situation - because in a very real sense, they are both criminals and victims.
Two: I have no idea whether or not Begum is a security threat. The correct way to deal with this, if there is a suspicion that she is, would be to put her on trial. Due process can then be followed to determine the best way to deal with the situation in order to protect the wider population. All I know is that ISIS indoctrinates children and that, in this sense, she is a victim. In any case, she is not just being treated as guilty before being proven so, but ripped of her citizenship - something so fundamentally a part of a human being's rights - before there has been any attempt to understand the circumstances of her joining ISIS, and pretty much exclusively because of the media attention on her specifically (and not the hundreds of other people who have been allowed to return from the IS and keep their citizenship). That's what is at issue here.
2) The foreign minister of Bangladesh has just now released a statement saying Begum cannot claim Bangladeshi citizenship. This means that if the UK proceeds with its plans to revoke her British citizenship, Begum will be stateless. This means she will not legally be able to settle anywhere on the planet. It is to sentence her to life as either a refugee or a criminal. It is also in breach of international law but I honestly think that's beside the point.
***
Additional update: People are getting muddled in the comments between this case and another case of a British Muslim who left to join ISIS, around the same time, who has a similar name. There is no evidence that Shamima Begum's family were in any way involved with or supportive of ISIS or Islamic extremism. You are thinking of someone else.
***
On Begum's citizenship, and that of others like her...
For anyone interested in knowing more about how the process of stripping someone of their citizenship works, this is a great article to read: https://threadreaderapp.com/.../1098150749454983168.html...
The article explains how the law essentially permits the Home Secretary to strip anyone of their citizenship, without trial or prosecution, ONLY IF they have foreign ancestry.
If Begum were a white British girl with British parents and British grandparents, the Government would not be legally allowed to deny her the right to return - even though she would be no more or less a British citizen than she is now.
Indeed, it is spurious whether or not the Government is acting legally now, as the law provides only for the UK to revoke her citizenship if it has "reason to believe" she is eligible for citizenship elsewhere. We are now in a stand-off with Bangladesh, both nations saying "nope" - but as Begum is a British citizen, it is Britain's responsibility to sort this mess out, under UN law.
But - this may interest some of you - the article also explains how revoking the citizenship of British ISIS supporters, thus making them theoretically stateless, poses a fundamental security risk at home and abroad: because it means that no nation has any legal jurisdiction over that person, and no nation has a responsibility to convict and punish them for their crimes.
It's well worth a read.
rob9872
Well-Known Member
You're going to have to help me - I'm struggling to see the link between that and James Bulger's killers.
hill83
Well-Known Member
'Jihadi Jack' homesick for 'pasties and Dr Who' in Syria and wants to come home
Another prick
Wonder if we’ll see similar outrage though.
Another prick
Wonder if we’ll see similar outrage though.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
I confess I’ll almost on the verge of a dramatic u turn on this one. Forum needs to be on high alert
He can piss right off middle class twat needed a gun to make up for being such a fanny.
Doubt there will be such a campaign for clemency in his case
Nick
Administrator
Astute
Well-Known Member
He has a sentence to serve first.
pastythegreat
Well-Known Member
How long is his sentence with the YPG? Hopefully they're treating him like shit while he's in their care.
Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk
Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk
Westendlad
Well-Known Member
Send them all to the usa.........They caused this shit...
Cov City Daytrader 87
Well-Known Member
Funny enough there's similar case in the U.S.
and of course an attorney was hired for the lady in question.
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
when I was younger and people wanted to live outside of society for bit they joined a Kibbutz or a commune, or even went to live in a squat in London.
How the fuck did joining a medieval religious death cult become to go to option for a bit of escapism?
How the fuck did joining a medieval religious death cult become to go to option for a bit of escapism?
Covstu
Well-Known Member
Probably blame computer games again.... do homework, have a bath, travel to distant country and chop heads off...
King of the Lesbians
Well-Known Member
They should just show him the 1st Jodie Whittaker episode.
He'd soon change his mind...
It's quite simple for me, if you leave your country and become an enemy of the State, you do not ever return, no second chance. These people will always be dangerous or at least cost the state a fortune whilst we monitor them. Hand them all over to the people they helped to kill or make stateless themselves.
eastwoodsdustman
Well-Known Member
Its not about their colour, its about what they did and should both be dealt with in exactly the same way and not let back in.
hill83
Well-Known Member
Correct
Meant deafening by the way which very much changes the tone of my post
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fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
Saw the journalist who tracked her down was Anthony Lloyd who wrote the excellent book on the Bosnian war and others
Captain Dart
Well-Known Member
I am only passing the message on.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Same reason flat earthism and white nationalism are back: YouTube + social isolation = crazy fucks.
Nick
Administrator
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
You not been fingered for a while Nick?
Nick
Administrator
vow
Well-Known Member
Pretty sure Joy would stand in?Nah, Tim has been away.
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
Reports her son has died.
Poor kid but her fault for taking him away from a country where he would have had access to proper health care.
Got a feeling she isn't the sort of person prone to a bit of self reflection and I'm sure she'll blame everyone else.
Poor kid but her fault for taking him away from a country where he would have had access to proper health care.
Got a feeling she isn't the sort of person prone to a bit of self reflection and I'm sure she'll blame everyone else.
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
That’s tragic 19 and lost 3 children before they were two
Marty
Well-Known Member
I'm doing my bit for the planet. :woot:
vow
Well-Known Member
Even better!
Terry Gibson's perm
Well-Known Member
I don’t know did the child ever exist or was it part of her little plan to get back?
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
Oh my gosh
I apologise to Britain, says Shamima Begum's dad
That Britain no longer exists mr Ali - I’m so sorry
Captain Dart
Well-Known Member
Seems to be a media campaign to support notion of bringing her back. BBC featured tweet about it by Diane Abbott but if you look at the replies they mostly say keep her out or what about M/C arena victims or tragedy could have been avoided if Begum had stayrd home etc.
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Terry Gibson's perm
Well-Known Member
While she has Abbott supporting her the chances of her getting back remain slim as she is joke figure.