new statement (17 Viewers)

[HuckerbyDublinWhelan]

It’s almost like defending Kim Jong Un and saying - yeah but Hitler did it.. fact is the council made statements that mislead the public in order to sell a stadium on the cheap to Wasps.

Tim fisher and SISU are private businesses as are Wasps

 

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[chiefdave]

What if the club sacked Fisher for his stadium comments that decieved us fans, by doing so it would set a precedent that the council officials who also deliberately decieved fans and the public should also be removed from office

Onye got sacked, didn't seem to make much difference.

 

[Chipfat]

OK, so if the importance is to get a deal you list out who can make that deal, who has influence on making that deal and go at them all to try and make one of them cave. Surely?

Yeap, but the only way i can see any real pressure being applied to any of the parties is if the FL say to SISU no move will be allowed. This way its takes an option off the table and really makes the owners make a decision on how they go forward. The CCC nor Wasps have a time constraint placed on them we will. If they decide not to and allow a move, the status qua remains, no matter what we say about the past on who said what will effect nothing, just means the same situation carries on as we were in NTFC.

 

[Nick]

Yeap, but the only way i can see any real pressure being applied to any of the parties is if the FL say to SISU no move will be allowed. This way its takes an option off the table and really makes the owners make a decision on how they go forward. The CCC nor Wasps have a time constraint placed on them we will. If they decide not to, no matter what we say about the past on who said what will effect nothing, just means the same situation carries on as we were in NTFC.

Firstly, they won't do that.

Secondly, it doesn't pressure Sisu. It probably plays into their hands.

Thirdly, it means wasps can pluck a figure from thin air knowing the club has no choice.

What that then does is give wasps even more power than they currently have.

 

[fernandopartridge]

Can anybody really claim that any of the council actors involved in this have complied with the Nolan principles?

The 7 principles of public life

 

[Chipfat]

We can go round all day Nick, but my point is if the FL let this go on as is, then you may as well rewind the clock back to NTFC and keep telling everyone how bad the all these parties are. We are in the shit today, if nobody throws us a rope then we cannot moan about how bad it smells. Something needs to change and the FL has to make a stand. If they don't and allow a move anywhere else then in my opinion you will still be having this same debate in years to come.

So although we agree on all have blame and the power's that be are shit houses, i don't think repeating it helps. The only out is SISU sell, Wasps cave in, FL grow balls or NTFC, Walsall etc... here we come. As for me if the later happens i really don't have a club and it still does not change all involved need to be held responsible, because pointing out one without the other does the situation no justice.

 

[Nick]

We can go round all day Nick, but my point is if the FL let this go on as is, then you may as well rewind the clock back to NTFC and keep telling everyone how bad the all these parties are. We are in the shit today, if nobody throws us a rope then we cannot moan about how bad it smells. Something needs to change and the FL has to make a stand. If they don't and allow a move anywhere else then in my opinion you will still be having this same debate in years to come.

So although we agree on all have blame and the power's that be are shit houses, i don't think repeating it helps. The only out is SISU sell, Wasps cave in, FL grow balls or NTFC, Walsall etc... here we come. As for me if the later happens i really don't have a club and it still does not change all involved need to be held responsible, because pointing out one without the other does the situation no justice.

Which is why defending particular sides won't help. Go all out at any who can make a difference.

 

[chiefdave]

Something needs to change and the FL has to make a stand. If they don't and allow a move anywhere else then in my opinion you will still be having this same debate in years to come.

What do you actually want the EFL to do? The only thing they really can do is say we can't play outside of Coventry. Even that could arguably leave them open to legal action.

But lets say they do that and Wasps to continue to talk. Is the preference for the EFL to 'make a stand' and therefore CCFC to be expelled from the league?

 

[Nick]

What do you actually want the EFL to do? The only thing they really can do is say we can't play outside of Coventry. Even that could arguably leave them open to legal action.

But lets say they do that and Wasps to continue to talk. Is the preference for the EFL to 'make a stand' and therefore CCFC to be expelled from the league?

No, it will be handed over to hoffman of course

 

[Chipfat]

Which is why defending particular sides won't help. Go all out at any who can make a difference.

I understand and agree nobody is coming out of this blameless and any posts needs to have balance.

As for the parties they are only protecting themselves or a vehicle that earns them money, where as we are trying to protect a club that should never on been placed in this situation in the first place.

 

[olderskyblue]

I don't believe for a second the council don't have influence over Wasps. Pressure on the council would lead to pressure on Wasps which is, IMO, the most likely route to resolving our immediate problem.

Also, ignoring it being CCFC, as a local taxpayer I don't think they should be allowed to outright lie to us and not be pulled up on it. We're at a point now where they're openly mocking, happy to tell the press they don't have to explain anything they get caught out on. That's unacceptable for me even if its an issue nothing to do with CCFC

I agree with most of that, I don't agree that the council will put pressure on wasps due to any pressure anyone puts on them though. That will only happen when it suits the council imho. No idea if/when that might be. (the obvious timing is just before we go under, they ride in on white horses and save CCFC...again.... )

The problem is, that even with pressure put on them, they think (and might be right) that they will have the majority of fans on their side. As nick is so fond of stating, just shout "SISU out" and most will then look to them and Fisher to vent their angst.

I fear it will be as wasted as pressure put on SISU

 

[Deleted member 5849]

I agree with most of that, I don't agree that the council will put pressure on wasps due to any pressure anyone puts on them though. That will only happen when it suits the council imho. No idea if/when that might be. (the obvious timing is just before we go under, they ride in on white horses and save CCFC...again.... )

The problem is, that even with pressure put on them, they think (and might be right) that they will have the majority of fans on their side. As nick is so fond of stating, just shout "SISU out" and most will then look to them and Fisher to vent their angst.

I fear it will be as wasted as pressure put on SISU

Getting public opinion behind CCFC staying is surely the only way forward, however. And yes, initially, it might be shouting into the wind, but it at least signifies people care. Doing nothing signifies the council are right, and nobody cares.

It's a tough sell when SISU are owners, but it's got to be a shift in public opinion to demonstrate CCFC matter. Thinking longer term (if we get it!) the idea was right, but the execution poor when that chap stood for the council, for example.

 

[Nick]

Getting public opinion behind CCFC staying is surely the only way forward, however. And yes, initially, it might be shouting into the wind, but it at least signifies people care. Doing nothing signifies the council are right, and nobody cares.

It's a tough sell when SISU are owners, but it's got to be a shift in public opinion to demonstrate CCFC matter. Thinking longer term (if we get it!) the idea was right, but the execution poor when that chap stood for the council, for example.

The most important thing should be getting a deal, you are right! Bollocks to all of them.

 

[Chipfat]

What do you actually want the EFL to do? The only thing they really can do is say we can't play outside of Coventry. Even that could arguably leave them open to legal action.

But lets say they do that and Wasps to continue to talk. Is the preference for the EFL to 'make a stand' and therefore CCFC to be expelled from the league?

What the FL do and what i want them to do would be probably different things, what they can do is as they have said put it to a vote. Do i then want them to vote us out? not sure on that i just want them the make a decision that could potentially make ALL PARTIES really look at the options they have.

I dont think the FL have came out with a statement yet which probably means they are allowing a potential GS somewhere. Not really helping the long term future of the club in my opinion and that is really what i want, good, bad or ugly i think the fans deserve to know the path the club intend to go. You follow or you decide on an alternative but to carry on with this uncertainty even with a GS does not help build a future for the club or the area.

 

[olderskyblue]

Getting public opinion behind CCFC staying is surely the only way forward, however. And yes, initially, it might be shouting into the wind, but it at least signifies people care. Doing nothing signifies the council are right, and nobody cares.

It's a tough sell when SISU are owners, but it's got to be a shift in public opinion to demonstrate CCFC matter. Thinking longer term (if we get it!) the idea was right, but the execution poor when that chap stood for the council, for example.

You see, I agree with this too, and I don't decry anyone who wants to do something, whoever they target. The concern I have is will any of it be enough to sway the council away from their preferred course. They must have a plan, and i'm not sure anything will divert them away from it. They have become very "SISU like" on this issue.

When you look at the catchment area, how many will be up in arms against the council? The blame is so easily laid all at SISU's door, and as we know, there will be many that stoke that fire, and many that will sheepishly fall in line with it, whatever pressure is borne.

I agree with the principle, just worry about the outcome. Longer term, perhaps you should move into Cov NW, and stand for election. I'm sure you would get a lot of votes

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Yet nobody is saying that Fisher shouldn't be held accountable.

People are saying the council shouldn't be. They have more of an obligation and more standards to adhere to don't they?

That is the point being made, hold them all to account for their bullshit and make them explain it. That doesn't exclude Fisher.

But the way you worded it gives the impression you and others think Fisher shouldn't be held AS accountable as the council because he's private sector. ChiefDave pretty much says as such.

I do not believe that should be the case - each should be as accountable as the other for their actions. Whether it is private or public there are standards that should be met and in this case they're not being met by anyone. You can't have one rule for one set and one for the other.

You can't use the excuse that one is linked to a hedge fund so it should be expected he's not telling the truth. Politicians are far more likely to have criminal convictions that most other professions so should we therefore say they should be expected to be dishonest? Of course not. They're both bullshitters and should be treated equally as such.

It's like with a number of old people - they're more likely to say stuff that can be pretty racist/homophobic/sexist but for some reason many of us just ignore it due to their age when in fact we shouldn't. Why should we set lower standards for private sector people just because we should expect them to be greedy and selfish? Their actions have just as much impact on society as a whole.

 

[Nick]

What the FL do and what i want them to do would be probably different things, what they can do is as they have said put it to a vote. Do i then want them to vote us out? not sure on that i just want them the make a decision that could potentially make ALL PARTIES really look at the options they have.

I dont think the FL have came out with a statement yet which probably means they are allowing a potential GS somewhere. Not really helping the long term future of the club in my opinion and that is really what i want, good, bad or ugly i think the fans deserve to know the path the club intend to go. You follow or you decide on an alternative but to carry on with this uncertainty even with a GS does not help build a future for the club or the area.

How does saying ccfc have to play at the Ricoh make all parties look at what options they have?

If the club aren't allowed to play at the Ricoh, it will be a groundshare.

If a groundshare isn't wanted, pressure all the people who can make a deal happen.

It's not rocket science.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

I think its perfectly acceptable to assume Fisher is full of shit but at the same time expect your elected representative to tell you the truth.

One represents a secretive Caymen based hedge fund, the other is an elected member of a public body. Why are we applying the same standards to both?

If you truly believe that's acceptable then it's no wonder the worlds shit and being milked by greedy twats

 

[Nick]

But the way you worded it gives the impression you and others think Fisher shouldn't be held AS accountable as the council because he's private sector. ChiefDave pretty much says as such.

I do not believe that should be the case - each should be as accountable as the other for their actions. Whether it is private or public there are standards that should be met and in this case they're not being met by anyone. You can't have one rule for one set and one for the other.

You can't use the excuse that one is linked to a hedge fund so it should be expected he's not telling the truth. Politicians are far more likely to have criminal convictions that most other professions so should we therefore say they should be expected to be dishonest? Of course not. They're both bullshitters and should be treated equally as such.

It's like with a number of old people - they're more likely to say stuff that can be pretty racist/homophobic/sexist but for some reason many of us just ignore it due to their age when in fact we shouldn't. Why should we set lower standards for private sector people just because we should expect them to be greedy and selfish? Their actions have just as much impact on society as a whole.

Isn't it fact that people within the council are more accountable as they have behaviour to adhere to? I'm pretty sure fisher can accept gifts as well for example.

There's not from a city fans point of view, hammer them all. Its just pointing out how they should be setting the example rather than behaving the same.

Still, im pretty sure if people keep trying to argue things like that for so long it will take the heat off

 

[Deleted member 5849]

You see, I agree with this too, and I don't decry anyone who wants to do something, whoever they target. The concern I have is will any of it be enough to sway the council away from their preferred course. They must have a plan, and i'm not sure anything will divert them away from it. They have become very "SISU like" on this issue.

When you look at the catchment area, how many will be up in arms against the council? The blame is so easily laid all at SISU's door, and as we know, there will be many that stoke that fire, and many that will sheepishly fall in line with it, whatever pressure is borne.

I agree with the principle, just worry about the outcome. Longer term, perhaps you should move into Cov NW, and stand for election. I'm sure you would get a lot of votes

It's not even an anti-council message you need, more a 'why CCFC matter, and why they should be supported'.

Now, p[olitically (small p) as soon as the Wasps deal was made, they can't let it fail - that would be seen as failure, and catastrophic for their seats. So, you have to show that their seats are in danger if CCFC fail, make it obvious that the most pragmatic thing to do is to help CCFC succeed, in terms of what the public want. Yes, SISU don't help that message! But it's as much 'how can your local council secure your support?'

But as it stands, Duggins has a point doesn't he? As far as you can see, people don't care. And that's as much because we spend so much time looking for a literal 'what will this change' we forget to do the incremental bits.

I'd be rubbish at campaigning, I'll just do the strategy for your campaign

 

[Nick]

If you truly believe that's acceptable then it's no wonder the worlds shit and being milked by greedy twats

You don't expect the local council leader to tell the truth?

As I pointed out a week or so ago, there's a whiff of desperation.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Isn't it fact that people within the council are more accountable as they have behaviour to adhere to? I'm pretty sure fisher can accept gifts as well for example.

There's not from a city fans point of view, hammer them all. Its just pointing out how they should be setting the example rather than behaving the same.

Still, im pretty sure if people keep trying to argue things like that for so long it will take the heat off

I agree. Everyone should be setting an example, but they're not.

I know the rules aren't the same, but I think they should be. If you have positions of power and responsibility that will impact on society you should be held just as accountable.

Trouble is if someone against SISU tries to go high it rarely works and they lose. So sadly the council seem to have decided the only way to deal with the likes of SISU is at their own game and be deceitful and spin information into half-truths. This could be playing into SISU's hands a bit as more people are definitely becoming more wary of council motives, as they should be certainly post Wasps sale.

If you've got a prick punching you in the face and you're trying to refrain and not retaliate in the same way, how often do you let them punch you in the face before you decide to fight back? Or do you just let them knock you unconscious and then claim the moral victory from your hospital bed while eating through a tube?

 

[Nick]

I agree. Everyone should be setting an example, but they're not.

Trouble is if someone against SISU tries to go high it rarely works and they lose. So sadly the council seem to have decided the only way to deal with the likes of SISU is at their own game and be deceitful and spin information into half-truths. This could be playing into SISU's hands a bit as more people are definitely becoming more wary of council motives, as they should be certainly post Wasps sale.

If you've got a prick punching you in the face and you're trying to refrain and not retaliate in the same way, how often do you let them punch you in the face before you decide to fight back? Or do you just let them knock you unconscious and then claim the moral victory from your hospital bed while eating through a tube?

So why do the council act like that when it isn't SISU they are against too? Why did they act like it before SISU were here?

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

You don't expect the local council leader to tell the truth?

As I pointed out a week or so ago, there's a whiff of desperation.

No, sadly I don't expect them to. They're politicians so they'll spin information whatever way they choose and cherry pick the bits they want and leave out the bits they don't.

It's a sad indictment of the world.

 

[Nick]

No, sadly I don't expect them to. They're politicians so they'll spin information whatever way they choose and cherry pick the bits they want and leave out the bits they don't.

It's a sad indictment of the world.

It isn't spin, it is completely making things up

 

[chiefdave]

But the way you worded it gives the impression you and others think Fisher shouldn't be held AS accountable as the council because he's private sector. ChiefDave pretty much says as such.

I would love Fisher to be accountable to our fans but there is no way of enforcing that. Simply put he can feed us as much shit as he likes and there is nothing we can do about it. The same doesn't apply to the council.

You can't have one rule for one set and one for the other.

There is quite literally one set of rules for councils and another for private businesses.

If you truly believe that's acceptable then it's no wonder the worlds shit and being milked by greedy twats

No I don't believe its acceptable and I believe he should be called out on it, and he is regularly by the local media, the trust, supporters and anyone else who has to put up with him. What I don't think is acceptable is the council pulling the same shit and people then using 'but SISU' to excuse it.

 

[Chipfat]

How does saying ccfc have to play at the Ricoh make all parties look at what options they have?

If the club aren't allowed to play at the Ricoh, it will be a groundshare.

If a groundshare isn't wanted, pressure all the people who can make a deal happen.

It's not rocket science.

I didn't say Ricoh Nick, I said within what the FL stated (area), therefore if its not the Ricoh then all have to look at the options they have to them.

 

[Nick]

I didn't say Ricoh Nick, I said within what the FL stated (area), therefore if its not the Ricoh then all have to look at the options they have to them.

Am I missing some other stadiums?

 

[MusicDating]

What the FL do and what i want them to do would be probably different things, what they can do is as they have said put it to a vote. Do i then want them to vote us out? not sure on that i just want them the make a decision that could potentially make ALL PARTIES really look at the options they have.

I dont think the FL have came out with a statement yet which probably means they are allowing a potential GS somewhere. Not really helping the long term future of the club in my opinion and that is really what i want, good, bad or ugly i think the fans deserve to know the path the club intend to go. You follow or you decide on an alternative but to carry on with this uncertainty even with a GS does not help build a future for the club or the area.

Sorry, you're not sure if you'd want then to vote us out of existence or not?

Do you actually support the team?

 

[Nick]

Sorry, you're not sure if you'd want then to vote us out of existence or not?

Do you actually support the team?

Think not really posting since August until coming on to defend the council with nonsense like that says enough.

 

[Chipfat]

Am I missing some other stadiums?

You want pressure on all parties to bring them together, the only way you get that on all is to say you can move within the boundaries set... FL can only pressure to SISU if they say Ricoh only, but if they allow a move within the area stated you bring in Wasps due to lose of revenue within stadium and CCC because of city. This way all have to think about the path they pick to go down. You say you want all to have responsibility and pressure applied equally that is the only way all get to know what each will lose.

This is not what i would want but any other decision by the FL allows one or two parties to stay away without pressure. Now where this could be i dont know The club said they have an alternative yesterday. If not then this conversation and this situation doesn't change.

 

[Chipfat]

Sorry, you're not sure if you'd want then to vote us out of existence or not?

Do you actually support the team?

Existence!! fuck me who said that, expelled is not the same... well if you want to twist it i suppose it is.

 

[Nick]

Existence!! fuck me who said that, expelled is not the same... well if you want to twist it i suppose it is.

Expelled is kicked out the football league isn't it?

 

[IrishSkyBlue]

update, basically kick the can down the road, i hope the board are working OT get this resolved: NEWS: EFL Statement - Board Update following today's meeting

 

[Nick]

You want pressure on all parties to bring them together, the only way you get that on all is to say you can move within the boundaries set... FL can only pressure to SISU if they say Ricoh only, but if they allow a move within the area stated you bring in Wasps due to lose of revenue within stadium and CCC because of city. This way all have to think about the path they pick to go down. You say you want all to have responsibility and pressure applied equally that is the only way all get to know what each will lose.

This is not what i would want but any other decision by the FL allows one or two parties to stay away without pressure. Now where this could be i dont know The club said they have an alternative yesterday. If not then this conversation and this situation doesn't change.

How is it pressuring wasps and ccc? It just gives them more power over it all.