The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (237 Viewers)

[Astute]

If MP's are true to themselves and it is the exact same deal on offer, they HAVE to turn it down and reject it don't they?

We are already looking like a laughing stock and May's deal has been heavily defeated now twice.

Nothing surprises me, but it will be ludicrous if this same deal now gets the vote and is put through.

But like I said earlier what is left other than the May deal?

May has run the clock down. No deal by the end of this month is off the table.

Then look at it the other way. The May deal is what May and the EU wants. Then negotiations will commence where ties will be made between the EU and UK. Isn't that what you want?

So what else do you think could happen within the next two weeks?

 

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[Otis]

But like I said earlier what is left other than the May deal?

May has run the clock down. No deal by the end of this month is off the table.

Then look at it the other way. The May deal is what May and the EU wants. Then negotiations will commence where ties will be made between the EU and UK. Isn't that what you want?

So what else do you think could happen within the next two weeks?

Thing is, we spent 4 billion on a possible no deal scenario.

If we end up with May's deal we could have just voted that through in the first place and saved all that money.

I know hindsight is a wonderful thing, but everyone totally rejected this deal as a bad deal.

Surely MP's have to vote this down again.

 

[Marty]

What happened to no deal is better then a bad deal and Brexit means Brexit. The democratic will of the people hasn't been upheld.

 

[SkyBlueDom26]

A second referendum would be an absolute disgrace, we voted in 2016 and thats how it needs to stay or else what is the point in democracy????

Imagine if remain won, would all the people who voted leave be 'moaning' like the remoaners
No

 

[skybluetony176]

OK I can see you are after an argument. Argue away as I have had enough. You have no thought of a debate.

Me: Elephants are grey.

You: so you’re saying tigers don’t have stripes then.

That’s your idea of debating.

 

[skybluetony176]

So the comment wasn't that the DUP stopped it?

That was my point. But as usual any point I make is ignored by some and I am made out to have said something different.

I didn’t even mention the DUP. You brought them into the conversation at a complete tangent to what I actually said and now you’re playing the victim.

Telling people what they’re thinking. Tick

Twisting what people actually said. Tick

Playing the victim after doing both of the above. Tick

Putting me back on block. Tick

HOUSE! And it only took a morning.

 

[martcov]

I'm not surprised you tried to make out that there was a deal that we should have agreed with when you are fully against it.

Where did I say that?

 

[skybluetony176]

Thing is, we spent 4 billion on a possible no deal scenario.

If we end up with May's deal we could have just voted that through in the first place and saved all that money.

I know hindsight is a wonderful thing, but everyone totally rejected this deal as a bad deal.

Surely MP's have to vote this down again.

When May’s says it’s the only deal on the table she means the only deal within her red lines. If she’s willing to compromise her red lines and accept parliamentary consensus of a permanent customs union for the U.K. rather than a “temporary” customs union for Northern Ireland she can renegotiate with the EU on that basis and take it to Parliament confident that it has cross party consensus and therefore parliamentary consensus. Unless labour want to play politics with it it then should get through parliament. The DUP should back it if they’re true to their word that NI has to be equal to the rest of the U.K. also. I would expect the ERG to vote against it though as they seem intent on stopping Brexit and then playing the victim.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

What happened to no deal is better then a bad deal and Brexit means Brexit. The democratic will of the people hasn't been upheld.

That's because the extreme Brexiters haven't voted for a deal that allows for Brexit.

They're the biggest remainers going!

 

[Deleted member 5849]

A second referendum would be an absolute disgrace, we voted in 2016 and thats how it needs to stay or else what is the point in democracy????

You're saying what is the point, in a democracy, of giving a vote to the people?

 

[martcov]

A second referendum would be an absolute disgrace, we voted in 2016 and thats how it needs to stay or else what is the point in democracy????

Imagine if remain won, would all the people who voted leave be 'moaning' like the remoaners
No

Remoaners aren’t moaning. That is a childish name that people like Farage band around to confuse you.

No way have all leavers got what they think they voted for. Just look at the insults May gets from leavers, including Farage himself.

The fact is, the government and the EU have an agreement which has been ok‘d by 27 countries. Now it is up to you. That is leave. That is the only version left on the table. Do you want that? Or would you prefer to remain? We cannot go on forever arguing about whose leave is the right leave. It is destroying businesses and people‘s livelihoods.

Put it to the people. Leave on the deal, or remain. There is no alternative except to crash the country with a no deal, and the government won’t allow that.

 

[skybluetony176]

A second referendum would be an absolute disgrace, we voted in 2016 and thats how it needs to stay or else what is the point in democracy????

Imagine if remain won, would all the people who voted leave be 'moaning' like the remoaners
No

Ferage said that if remain won by a tight margin it would just mean that there’s more work to do. So yes they would be moaning.

 

[tisza]

Fucking ridiculous

PM to bring third Brexit deal vote to MPs

a real gamble.
If May can reduce the level of defeat by enough it could improve the chances of a longer delay.
If she can't then she's going to probably find herself in a leadership challenge.

 

[skybluetony176]

You're saying what is the point, in a democracy, of giving a vote to the people?

What do we want? Democracy. When do we won’t it? Not until brexit has been fudged through parliament having voted enough times for May to get her deal accepted.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

a real gamble.
If May can reduce the level of defeat by enough it could improve the chances of a longer delay.
If she can't then she's going to probably find herself in a leadership challenge.

Aren't they locked out of challenging her leadership for a while longer?

I do actually see the tactics of bringing it back (some Brexit is better than no Brexit?) but given the ERG have decided this version of Brexit is no good, it'd be very strange if they didn't stick to that.

 

[skybluetony176]

That's because the extreme Brexiters haven't voted for a deal that allows for Brexit.

They're the biggest remainers going!

I do look at the ERG and wonder if they’re actually bregretters and are secretly intent on stopping Brexit at any cost.

 

[SkyBlueDom26]

I'd LOL if leave won again in a second ref
Would be moaning for a third one then

 

[Grendel]

You're saying what is the point, in a democracy, of giving a vote to the people?

I do find it amusing that people keep using terms regarding people’s vote so to rebrand it from the fact it’s already happened but the answer was wrong so try again

Also as many people remind us we are a sovereign democracy so actually as the second referendum has never been on the elected governments manifesto or the opposition under our terms of course it is not democratic

The same people who often bang the drum for this are the same people who actually say uncertainty is wrecking business and consumer confidence. It’s likely this whole princess would take 12 months to resolve. There would be massive issues with the questions and almost certainly legal challenges whatever route was decided to go down. Also every opinion poll will be scrutinised and every time a swing to leave happened confidence again would falter. There’s every likelihood the result will be the same or even closer.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

13.03 Barnier..."I would like to simply recall to everybody : if the United Kingdom still wants to leave the European Union and leave it in an orderly fashion, then this treaty that we negotiated with Theresa May's government over the past year and a half remains the only treaty available."

So, the deal cannot be changed. JC is blowing smoke out of his ass, & misleading people if he is to persist with his alternative deal & saying he will go back to the EU with it. Unless we think Barnier is lying.

So, TM is right to put it back to Parliament - we have to accept the deal or just leave, or just ignore the 17.4m majority vote & stay & get steamrollered by the EU idealists.

At the moment I am thinking it is all such a mess, simply stucking to 29th March 'we leave' is the best plan. Deal or no deal. Then if the EU want a deal, maybe they will need to reconsider the deal together with us.

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[Deleted member 5849]

I do find it amusing that people keep using terms regarding people’s vote so to rebrand it from the fact it’s already happened but the answer was wrong so try again

Also as many people remind us we are a sovereign democracy so actually as the second referendum has never been on the elected governments manifesto or the opposition under our terms of course it is not democratic

The same people who often bang the drum for this are the same people who actually say uncertainty is wrecking business and consumer confidence. It’s likely this whole princess would take 12 months to resolve. There would be massive issues with the questions and almost certainly legal challenges whatever route was decided to go down. Also every opinion poll will be scrutinised and every time a swing to leave happened confidence again would falter. There’s every likelihood the result will be the same or even closer.

I find it amusing that people can't see that, and consider democracy only a democracy if it agrees with their world view, and entrench people as never being intelligent enough to decide further down the line what they want. I also find it amusing people are too scared of leave not winning a vote, they wish to deny the voice of the people. A vote would give certainty. Leaving it with parliament is creating the uncertainty!

It would also be a different vote to last time. We have a deal, so we know what the alternative is to staying in the EU. We now have something to actually hang a decision on.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

or just ignore the 17.4m

And of course all 17.4m wanted no deal, and would be delighted for us to leave with no deal...

Funny how only people who want to stay in the EU are expected to compromise, not the minority who want a savage break, with no safety net.

 

[SkyBlueDom26]

And of course all 17.4m wanted no deal, and would be delighted for us to leave with no deal...

Funny how only people who want to stay in the EU are expected to compromise, not the minority who want a savage break, with no safety net.

All 17.4m people wanted us to leave the EU, not listen to people who can't take no for an answer and Mp's who want to go against the majority

 

[clint van damme]

A second referendum would be an absolute disgrace, we voted in 2016 and thats how it needs to stay or else what is the point in democracy????

Imagine if remain won, would all the people who voted leave be 'moaning' like the remoaners
No

As someone who vote remain I agree there shouldn't be another vote, but the comment in bold is nonsense, Brexiteer in chief Farage said a close vote wouldn't be the end of it before the initial referendum. Though probably a bit silly of me to expect informed opinion from someone who uses the term remoaner!

 

[martcov]

A second referendum would be an absolute disgrace, we voted in 2016 and thats how it needs to stay or else what is the point in democracy????

Imagine if remain won, would all the people who voted leave be 'moaning' like the remoaners
No

Farage said a 52:48 victory for remain would mean „work to be done“.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

All 17.4m people wanted us to leave the EU, not listen to people who can't take no for an answer and Mp's who want to go against the majority

All 17.4m would have been happy leaving with no deal?

Amazed you can say that because, of course, it's nonsense only put out by ideological radicals who are afraid their extremist view may not actually get through.

 

[martcov]

All 17.4m people wanted us to leave the EU, not listen to people who can't take no for an answer and Mp's who want to go against the majority

Yes, but they have had three years to agree on what leave means and to negotiate this deal with the EU. 17,4 million voted for something with no means of knowing what this something would look like. Now they are surprised that we have no acceptable deal for a large part of the parliament or the electorate.

The majority are now in favour of remain according to the latest polls.

 

[Otis]

You're saying what is the point, in a democracy, of giving a vote to the people?

Yup. I don't know what people are so scared of. It's called democracy.

This is nigh on 3 years on. People have had a chance to see what a mess this all is and what it all now means.

If the people still want to leave we'll just be ratifying the initial vote won't we? No problem.

A week is a long time in politics. Three years is eleventy billion centuries.

I was all for accepting the will of the people, but this is now such a mess and it is now 3 years in and the House of Commons simply cannot agree and also, added to that, some people HAVE now changed their minds.

It has to go back to the people. It's not a betrayal, it's democracy.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

And of course all 17.4m wanted no deal, and would be delighted for us to leave with no deal...

Funny how only people who want to stay in the EU are expected to compromise, not the minority who want a savage break, with no safety net.

No...you would argue 17.4m leavers WANTED a deal I suppose?

Either way, there WILL be a mutually acceptable deal. Why? Because there is too much to lose!
This sums it up nicely...Redirect Notice

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[Grendel]

I find it amusing that people can't see that, and consider democracy only a democracy if it agrees with their world view, and entrench people as never being intelligent enough to decide further down the line what they want. I also find it amusing people are too scared of leave not winning a vote, they wish to deny the voice of the people. A vote would give certainty. Leaving it with parliament is creating the uncertainty!

It would also be a different vote to last time. We have a deal, so we know what the alternative is to staying in the EU. We now have something to actually hang a decision on.

You’ve ignored every point I’ve made which kind of answers the question doesn’t it

 

[Grendel]

Yup. I don't know what people are so scared of. It's called democracy.

This is nigh on 3 years on. People have had a chance to see what a mess this all is and what it all now means.

If the people still want to leave we'll just be ratifying the initial vote won't we? No problem.

A week is a long time in politics. Three years is eleventy billion centuries.

I was all for accepting the will of the people, but this is now such a mess and it is now 3 years in and the House of Commons simply cannot agree and also, added to that, some people HAVE now changed their minds.

It has to go back to the people. It's not a betrayal, it's democracy.

So what’s the question on the ballot paper then?

 

[Deleted member 5849]

No...you would argue 17.4m leavers WANTED a deal I suppose?

I would be a total idiot to claim 17.4million people wanted the same thing.

 

[Grendel]

I would be a total idiot to claim 17.4million people wanted the same thing.

Nor did the people who voted to remain

Also I think there were key things that all leave voters did agree on

 

[Sick Boy]

13

At the moment I am thinking it is all such a mess, simply stucking to 29th March 'we leave' is the best plan. Deal or no deal. Then if the EU want a deal, maybe they will need to reconsider the deal together with us.

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Luckily you are nowhere near power.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Nor did the people who voted to remain

Correct. Where have I said otherwise?

 

[Sick Boy]

Also I think there were key things that all leave voters did agree on

Which were?