The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (56 Viewers)

[martcov]

Any news on the Farage March... well he won’t actually be marching himself apart from a photo opportunity at the beginning and at the end? Last I saw there was about 100 to 200 on a wet day out on the coast. The other 17.4 million angry brexiteers are probably in Weatherspoons as it’s warmer and drier.

 

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[Brighton Sky Blue]

I think you are missing the point. We have suddenly a sign that takes us from 'take it or leave it' territory.

Slagging the tories is all very well, but what about Labour? All they want to do is get into Government & are manipulating Brexit as best they can to do so!

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Labour didn’t call the referendum without a plan B

Labour didn’t fuck up negotiations for 3 years

But yes it is Labour’s fault for Brexit being shit. Funnily enough it is the objective of the opposition party to get into government

 

[tisza]

Brexit is a disaster. It is not what was promised. It cannot make us better off under no deal or May‘s deal.

All that is left is clutching at straws in the hope that somehow it won’t be a total disaster and/ or finding people to blame. Labour, remainers, the EU, people who don’t believe enough.., whatever. The people I blame are the people who sold this idea of leaving the biggest trading bloc in the world without a „business plan“ or a concept of how leave should take form.

One of the things needs clearing up is that Brussels unilaterally decided after Brexit how to interpret Article 50. The part about the framework of future relations with EU was expected to include trade. Nothing in Article 50 that says trade is excluded from future framework agreements.

The EU were lax pre-referendum as there was a complacency that the remain vote would win albeit by a small majority. Let's not forget the backlash from many member states against Brussels for not doing enough to encourage UK to vote remain.
Brexit process maybe a bit of a disaster but no-one can judge the actual Brexit until all talks/treaties/deals are concluded.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

One of the things needs clearing up is that Brussels unilaterally decided after Brexit how to interpret Article 50. The part about the framework of future relations with EU was expected to include trade. Nothing in Article 50 that says trade is excluded from future framework agreements.

The EU were lax pre-referendum as there was a complacency that the remain vote would win albeit by a small majority. Let's not forget the backlash from many member states against Brussels for not doing enough to encourage UK to vote remain.
Brexit process maybe a bit of a disaster but no-one can judge the actual Brexit until all talks/treaties/deals are concluded.

Why don’t you ask our crack negotiators who said it would be the easiest deal in history.

 

[clint van damme]

Why don’t you ask our crack negotiators who said it would be the easiest deal in history.

And that's the frightening thing. If this government can manage to stumble it's way to some sort of exit, be it with a deal or no deal they will then be responsible for negotiating potentially dozens of new trade deals and altering and introducing a whole myriad of legislation.

 

[tisza]

It’s hardly ‘a blink’ it’s more the EU trying to find a solution despite the incompetence of the UK government.

Nice attempt at a deflection onto Labour there too. Brexit is a mess that the Tory’s will be forever associated with.

Nope. History will revisit the facts of how there was a cross party support for Brexit, how 2 major parties promised to respect outcome of referendum, why a remainer was put in charge of a Brexit party, how people misjudged what they though would be a remain vote, why there was such a lack of consensus on Brexit targets and how the oppostion were still prepared to deliver a Brexit on their own terms, were parties putting self-interest ahead of the popular vote and was Brexit the final nail in a Conservative party coffin.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

One of the things needs clearing up is that Brussels unilaterally decided after Brexit how to interpret Article 50. The part about the framework of future relations with EU was expected to include trade. Nothing in Article 50 that says trade is excluded from future framework agreements.

The EU were lax pre-referendum as there was a complacency that the remain vote would win albeit by a small majority. Let's not forget the backlash from many member states against Brussels for not doing enough to encourage UK to vote remain.
Brexit process maybe a bit of a disaster but no-one can judge the actual Brexit until all talks/treaties/deals are concluded.

True but it will be

 

[Sick Boy]

Nope. History will revisit the facts of how there was a cross party support for Brexit, how 2 major parties promised to respect outcome of referendum, why a remainer was put in charge of a Brexit party, how people misjudged what they though would be a remain vote, why there was such a lack of consensus on Brexit targets and how the oppostion were still prepared to deliver a Brexit on their own terms, were parties putting self-interest ahead of the popular vote and was Brexit the final nail in a Conservative party coffin.

Name a credible leaver who’d have gone about it better then? It’s strange how they’re the biggest blowhards but never actually have any firm suggestions and all go into hiding. Or perhaps the whole thing just isn’t workable.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Name a credible leaver who’d have gone about it better then? It’s strange how they’re the biggest blowhards but never actually have any firm suggestions and all go into hiding. Or perhaps the whole thing just isn’t workable.

Nige hates Europe but loves the pay packet he gets from it.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

It’s hardly ‘a blink’ it’s more the EU trying to find a solution despite the incompetence of the UK government.

Nice attempt at a deflection onto Labour there too. Brexit is a mess that the Tory’s will be forever associated with.

It is a blink, because last week the deal twice voted down was the only option other than no deal according to all voices in the EU. Not any longer it seems.
No attempt at deflection either. Labour ARE the only other option to seek a deal for Brexit. And they have been complicit in creating the mess.

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[SkyblueBazza]

Labour didn’t call the referendum without a plan B

Labour didn’t fuck up negotiations for 3 years

But yes it is Labour’s fault for Brexit being shit. Funnily enough it is the objective of the opposition party to get into government

No - Labour promised a referendum but never delivered it.

I have not blamed Labour in solitary for the mess. Plus, whilst yes to get into Govt is rightly an I objective for the opposition - the method should not be to be ruinous to the nation as a whole.

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[martcov]

One of the things needs clearing up is that Brussels unilaterally decided after Brexit how to interpret Article 50. The part about the framework of future relations with EU was expected to include trade. Nothing in Article 50 that says trade is excluded from future framework agreements.

The EU were lax pre-referendum as there was a complacency that the remain vote would win albeit by a small majority. Let's not forget the backlash from many member states against Brussels for not doing enough to encourage UK to vote remain.
Brexit process maybe a bit of a disaster but no-one can judge the actual Brexit until all talks/treaties/deals are concluded.

I agree that remain was taken for granted. A massive mistake.

Brexit being a bit of a disaster is being kind.

Messing around with your home market of 500 million can only be to your detriment. It cannot bring benefits.

What have we got lined up? Puffin pie from the Faroes and sugar from Fiji. ( and Chile and a couple of African States on a roll over deal ). Not looking great. If Brexit was as promised we would already see the benefits on the horizon after 3 years. There aren’t any no matter how hard Brexiteers try and spin it.

Brexit as it stands is a failure and it is virtually impossible for us to become better off than we were in the EU.

Farage is floundering on the rocks. 200 old men stomping through mud on a cold, wet windy day on the north East coast whilst their leaders will be whisked off into the warmth after a few photos, is Brexit on the nail. Almost Orwellian. The pigs using the shire horses to do their work. When will the leavers wake up to what is happening? Brexit is about the wealthy becoming wealthier, and trying to recreate a Jarrow march is an insult to the actual poor who were marching against poverty.

A farce.

 

[martcov]

It is a blink, because last week the deal twice voted down was the only option other than no deal according to all voices in the EU. Not any longer it seems.
No attempt at deflection either. Labour ARE the only other option to seek a deal for Brexit. And they have been complicit in creating the mess.

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Complicit? The biggest complaint I have against Labour, is not having the balls to call Brexit for what it is, detrimental to the UK working class and middle class.

Bollocks to Brexit.

 

[tisza]

Complicit? The biggest complaint I have against Labour, is not having the balls to call Brexit for what it is, detrimental to the UK working class and middle class.

Bollocks to Brexit.

It was a double edged sword. Gone against Brexit and could easily handed Tories a general election majority big enough to pass what they wanted.

 

[martcov]

It was a double edged sword. Gone against Brexit and could easily handed Tories a general election majority big enough to pass what they wanted.

Yes, i realise that it may yet result in stopping Brexit when it is clear that everything else has failed and there is no way out for the Tories but to admit defeat and call an election. But it is frustrating.

 

[tisza]

Yes, i realise that it may yet result in stopping Brexit when it is clear that everything else has failed and there is no way out for the Tories but to admit defeat and call an election. But it is frustrating.

no. last election.if Labour gone against Brexit too many marginals with high leave vote.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

No - Labour promised a referendum but never delivered it.

I have not blamed Labour in solitary for the mess. Plus, whilst yes to get into Govt is rightly an I objective for the opposition - the method should not be to be ruinous to the nation as a whole.

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When did Labour promise a referendum and not deliver it?

 

[tisza]

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When did Labour promise a referendum and not deliver it?

treaty of lisbon

 

[Astute]

I’m calling out your inaccurate sweeping statements.

Stop playing the victim, as usual.

Name them then.

You are not calling out any statement I have made. You are making out I have made one but not saying what it is.

Just like recently when I said Brexit wasn't going to happen this month. What was your reply?

 

[Astute]

I don’t disagree with either sentiment. The problem is we are very unlikely to get a world full of honest and selfless politicians so we must ask are the imperfections tolerable.

In my view the EU’s are less deep rooted than our own.

I don't disagree. But what I do disagree with is those who try to gloss over the faults with the EU whilst constantly having a go at anything to do with Brexit.

Brexit is shit. But that doesn't mean anyone should only look at one side. It doesn't mean others with different views are idiots.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I don't disagree. But what I do disagree with is those who try to gloss over the faults with the EU whilst constantly having a go at anything to do with Brexit.

Brexit is shit. But that doesn't mean anyone should only look at one side. It doesn't mean others with different views are idiots.

Don't think even Mart has done that. It's not the views being different that makes me think someone stupid, it's the view being stupid. If you voted Brexit because of immigration, you're ignoring that most comes from outside the EU and that we have just not exercised our ability to send immigrants back

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

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treaty of lisbon

Which has got what to do with causing a Brexit shitfest?

 

[Sick Boy]

Name them then.

You are not calling out any statement I have made. You are making out I have made one but not saying what it is.

Just like recently when I said Brexit wasn't going to happen this month. What was your reply?

Hahaha! That is one hell of a deflection...can you name those countries yet?

You also said the EU would cave in due to the UK buying wine and cheese and they needed us more etc etc

 

[Astute]

Don't think even Mart has done that. It's not the views being different that makes me think someone stupid, it's the view being stupid. If you voted Brexit because of immigration, you're ignoring that most comes from outside the EU and that we have just not exercised our ability to send immigrants back

Yes IF.

But if you believed what is said on here everyone who voted to leave was because of immigration.

Or does over half the population of the UK want to stop immigration?

 

[tisza]

Which has got what to do with causing a Brexit shitfest?

where do you think the roots of Brexit started?
Back then over 70% (far higher than current demand for 2nd referendum)wanted a referendum on Lisbon (which several other countries gave their voters). Another example where Parliament decided not to keep its election promises and decided the people did not warrant a say when they wanted one. Lead to lowest EU approval in UK of around 30% by 2010 and barely recovered to 37% when Cameron gambled on the referendum.

 

[Astute]

Hahaha! That is one hell of a deflection...can you name those countries yet?

You also said the EU would cave in due to the UK buying wine and cheese and they needed us more etc etc

I said it would go to the last minute. Then to get a deal the EU would finally start to talk. But it won't happen now as a no deal is off the table.

I suppose you knew that no deal would be taken off the table.

 

[Astute]

Don't think even Mart has done that.

So you don't read what he says then.

 

[Sick Boy]

I said it would go to the last minute. Then to get a deal the EU would finally start to talk. But it won't happen now as a no deal is off the table.

I suppose you knew that no deal would be taken off the table.

You’ve put forward numerous outcomes, so one of them has to be correct, I suppose.

Not going to tell us about the tap water then?

 

[SkyblueBazza]

t

treaty of lisbon

Blair promised twice...but didn't deliver

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[tisza]

Blair promised twice...but didn't deliver

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tbf Cameron promised to as well.

 

[Astute]

You’ve put forward numerous outcomes, so one of them has to be correct, I suppose.

Not going to tell us about the tap water then?

Numerous?

Nearly everything I said I could see happening has. And I haven't ever gone for the obvious.

So you don't understand what is Western Europe and what isn't Western Europe? Or are you just after the normal stupid point scoring?

 

[martcov]

I don't disagree. But what I do disagree with is those who try to gloss over the faults with the EU whilst constantly having a go at anything to do with Brexit.

Brexit is shit. But that doesn't mean anyone should only look at one side. It doesn't mean others with different views are idiots.

It means you can pick faults with an organisation coordinating 28 different countries, but they don’t justify leaving and trying to go it alone.... without even agreement on how to do it. It would be more sensible to have a say in improving the EU and not having this nightmare.

 

[martcov]

Yes IF.

But if you believed what is said on here everyone who voted to leave was because of immigration.

Or does over half the population of the UK want to stop immigration?

It was quoted by leavers as a major reason. Do you think they Lied?

 

[Astute]

It means you can pick faults with an organisation coordinating 28 different countries, but they don’t justify leaving and trying to go it alone.... without even agreement on how to do it. It would be more sensible to have a say in improving the EU and not having this nightmare.

So what have I said to do with this?

Yes absolutely none of it.

Just like all the leaders want to take power back from those who run the EU. It could and should be a lot better. Are you going to try and deny this? Because you are always at the front of the queue to have a go at those running the UK and at the front of the queue to defend the EU.

 

[Astute]

It was quoted by leavers as a major reason. Do you think they Lied?

All leavers?

Of course not. But you like to twist it this way.