CT Thorn We've got to sort it out , big changes are needed (9 Viewers)

[oldskyblue58]

My suspicion is that if SISU stay then we will rely on youth players and picking up out of contract ones with maybe a loan or two. If GH comes in there might be some investment in buying new players but that will increase debt and probably the losses because it will all be done the same way it has always been done. QUOTE]

Agreed with the first part, but not the second: there are plenty of clubs-indeed I'd say the majority of top 2 division clubs-whose owners put money in, and don't ask for it back. For some it's ego, others it's a love of the game, others the love of the club. Around 90% of football club owners are not in it to make money-at least not directly, although raising their profile may be one way in which they do as a side-effect. Those that go into the game to make money so often lose a lot of money, and especially at the lower levels.

I am taking a bet that the monies put in are still shown as a liability on the balance sheet though NLHWC. Unless they put that money in as shares or as a gift or as income and write it off immediately then it will still be owed to them whether they ask for it not. Have said before if "investors" are really serious then put the money in as shares and link it to the value of the club. Pretty certain that doesnt happen very often - why ? because shareholders would be the last to be paid out and are not classed as football creditors.

Not disagreeing with your sentiment NLHWC - but the situation is that monies put in are generally done so on the basis that there is hope of extraction however remote. Put it in on the basis that you are definitely not going to ask for it back and the return you get is because you are successful. Loans you can demand repayment of putting the club at risk - the fact someone doesnt ask for it does not extinguish the right to demand. Shares cannot be drawn down like a loan and you cant demand money back on them, you can get income from them if profits available and you get money back by selling them to someone elseThere is a difference and thats what I mean about doing things differently.

 

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[Nonleagueherewecome]

I am taking a bet that the monies put in are still shown as a liability on the balance sheet though NLHWC. Unless they put that money in as shares or as a gift or as income and write it off immediately then it will still be owed to them whether they ask for it not. Have said before if "investors" are really serious then put the money in as shares and link it to the value of the club. Pretty certain that doesnt happen very often - why ? because shareholders would be the last to be paid out and are not classed as football creditors.

Not disagreeing with your sentiment NLHWC - but the situation is that monies put in are generally done so on the basis that there is hope of extraction however remote. Put it in on the basis that you are definitely not going to ask for it back and the return you get is because you are successful. Loans you can demand repayment of putting the club at risk - the fact someone doesnt ask for it does not extinguish the right to demand. Shares cannot be drawn down like a loan and you cant demand money back on them, you can get income from them if profits available and you get money back by selling them to someone elseThere is a difference and thats what I mean about doing things differently.

Essentially though the point I am making is that SISU are the exception, rather than the norm, in that they wanted to make easy money out of football. And guess what? They missed that gravy train. Being in the Premiership was one way to make those big bucks, but that doesn't come easy-it takes sustained investment, especially when you start from the position we were in.

SISU claimed to be here with the intention of getting the club promoted, then selling on for profit-they even had to defend themselves for being "short termist, in it just for the money" at the time-and were quite open in that, albeit via then-ally Ranson. We accepted that-if it got us promoted, we didn't care if they walk away making money! But they didn't back that plan, it failed, and the money they did put in-plus a huge load more-is now potentially a big loss to them. Only it's only their investors, and our club, that take the hit, not the faceless SISU executives.



On to what some others are saying: to make out that SISU are visionaries with a long-term plan of making the club sustainable is utter tripe. They were meant to be in-out-quick cash in under 4 years. Blame the credit crunch for that not happening if you like (although to this day, no SISU representative has ever actually confirmed that the investment plan changed due to that!). But don't try to claim this was the long term plan-this is the "No Plan B" reality they have found themselves in, not some fantastic strategy.

If you don't have a Plan B, yet are going into a business you have zero experience in, and your Plan A fails, you really do only have yourself to blame. Those SISU errors have cost this club it's status in The Championship, and could yet cost it it's future entirely. We are the one's paying for their mistakes. Their mistakes that they made trying to make money out of something they got on the cheap, and only ever saw as a cash cow. If it was a fan with dreams in his mind I could excuse it, but not these self-styled hard nosed business people with "Balls of Steel". Never.

 

[oldskyblue58]

The difference (simplified cos things are rarely so simple )

Balance sheet (money as loan)
Assets 5m
liabilities including loans (18m) total 20m

net liabilities 15m

represented by
Shares 1m
Reserves - 16m

shares have no value

or if money in by shares for same company

Assets 5m

liabilities 2m (ie 20m - 18m loans)
net assets 3m

represented by
shares 19m
reserves -16m

net assets 3m

shares actually have a balance sheet value

Yes I know participator loans are shown as long term on balance sheets but loans can be withdrawn, whereas shares locked in. Changes the perception of risk for credit references and things. It isnt that simple i know but its the kind of thing I am driving at. Use the money going in to strengthen the balance sheet, lock it in and be prepared to write it off at the start not when things get in the mire financially.

Am not disagreeing with you about SISU either NLHWC. In a sense I am looking forward from them. There is an opportunity for a new owner to really get things set up well - I am just not confident anyone will because I fear it will be more of the same

I think we need to be the exception and more radical in our thinking, to think outside the box or norm - dont think we need to be a SISU type exception though.

 

[skybluegod]

yeah if he had said it at the start of the season then he would get fired now he has nothing to lose he may not keep the job and either way he's saying they need to sort it out.

 

[dongonzalos]

Finally the thick twat wake's up only 40 games to late.

Maybe read the story before commenting unless you mean the secret investor is the thick twat or whatever spokesman for SISU.

If you are referring to Thorn I think he may have realised the factors that need changing, as he is making reference too the fact that they happened last summer and in January. He is just allowed to speak about them now.

 

[LeamingtonBootBoy]

A recent analogy might be recent disclosures about British servicemen dying because of lack of basic equipment.
Now then was this the responsibility of the M o D or the Captain of his brigade who had to back his men and wage a war whilst carrying out orders, keep discipline, show leadership, etc. etc.??????????
Well?

Dadgad, I respect you as a fellow CCFC fan and as a post-er on here, but your analogy typifies the misguided view of a significant minority of CCFC fans who have little grasp of the situation.

You provide an example to support Andy Thorn which is flawed in the extreme....I'll explain why.

The task at a football club is to achieve a given target or objective....and there are several groups of people who are involved in achieving that target/objective.

You focus upon a production objective....where there is simply a supplier and user. There can only be one group to blame in this instance...either those who supplied or incorrect use of the product by the user....i.e in your case those wearing the equipment.

When referring to a specific target as the objective (i.e promotion in football/sales targets etc), then one , some or all of those involved in the process could be at fault.

You would have had a case or more solid argument if you had continued with your armed forces analogy, but asked the following question....

A recent analogy might be judging the success of the Allies war on terror and the campaign in Afghanistan.
Now then was this the responsibility of the M o D or the Captains of brigades who had to direct their men on the ground to keep discipline, show leadership, etc. or indeed the soldiers to ensure success.??????????
Well?

So using that analogy, and here you will see the need to deliver/achieve a result/objective/success, I could ask you, whose responsibility is this??????
Well?:facepalm:

Do you want my answer.......?


Yes....??


All 3 are to blame....the percentage per group we can argue about, but for one group/person to blame the others and absolve themselves is naive and shows a lack of acceptance etc....

I'll leave it to you to transfer this to what is going on at CCFC and the (rightful) furore after AT's comments after Tuesday night.....

 

[LeamingtonBootBoy]

Finally the thick twat wake's up only 40 games to late.

you sound like that Ian off CWR he was saying the same thing all game on Tuesday night.....:thinking about:

 

[LeamingtonBootBoy]

band of brothers then.....and because the previous Colonel was shot at dawn for alienating his men.
Now answer the question.

Answered the question dadgad....happy?

Well??

Answer the question....are you happy???

 

[LeamingtonBootBoy]

.. I think on occasion Thorn has been naive.. I think he would admit it.......

That's the point here, and why folk are not happy with AT's comments.....he HASN'T admitted jack-shit, just blamed someone else.....:facepalm:

 

[@richh87]

So they held him at gun point to take it?

It is a bit late to come out and say changes are needed, just sums up his tactical judgement!

No it doesn't - he doesn't mean tactically. He means financially.

 

[dongonzalos]

No it doesn't - he doesn't mean tactically. He means financially.

I agree, people need to read the article before taking misinformed swipes

 

[Grendel]

I agree, people need to read the article before taking misinformed swipes

Thorn says anything to get with the fans. Last season publicly take a swipe at the prior manager with his entertaining football guff. Then throughout the season he carried on without any complaint. Now the games up it's all the owners fault. Even someone as intellectually constrained as thorn must realize sisu are the only people who would ever employ him as a manager.
Hopeless communicator, useless under pressure, zero tactical awareness. An utter disaster. Worst manager in my 40 years of following the club.
When boothroyd was here did he moan about embargos? No, he got on with it and continued a dignified silence after his sacking. When thorn goes he will squeal as he has no dignity or shame.

 

[stupot07]

Thorn says anything to get with the fans. Last season publicly take a swipe at the prior manager with his entertaining football guff. Then throughout the season he carried on without any complaint. Now the games up it's all the owners fault. Even someone as intellectually constrained as thorn must realize sisu are the only people who would ever employ him as a manager.
Hopeless communicator, useless under pressure, zero tactical awareness. An utter disaster. Worst manager in my 40 years of following the club.
When boothroyd was here did he moan about embargos? No, he got on with it and continued a dignified silence after his sacking. When thorn goes he will squeal as he has no dignity or shame.

When he doesn't moan he's labelled a "Sisu puppet", and when he does moan he a "moaner with no dignity or shame ?

 

[Grendel]

When he doesn't moan he's labelled a "Sisu puppet", and when he does moan he a "moaner with no dignity or shame ?

He only moans when the game is up to divert any blame on himself. He knows he needs a new employer. If he felt that strongly he could have left anytime during the season. Why criticize the policy when we are relegated and his last paycheck is due. Why?

 

[LeamingtonBootBoy]

When he doesn't moan he's labelled a "Sisu puppet", and when he does moan he a "moaner with no dignity or shame ?

I've got some labels for him with a record of 12 wins in 56 games....a win record of 21% must make him one of the worst managers, statistically, in our history...which is very unfortunate as he has got us playing the best football we have seen in years.:facepalm:

Or we could mask the figures, and say that he has won 12 games in 12....a 100% win record, and blame the other 44 games on SISU...yes, the fans will swallow that.....:facepalm:

 

[Gaz]

I don't see how that win record is proof of anything.
If you havn't got the players then you are going to struggle. Imo

 

[Grendel]

I don't see how that win record is proof of anything.
If you havn't got the players then you are going to struggle. Imo

It doesn't prove his any good either but gives him an excuse to fail.

 

[LeamingtonBootBoy]

I don't see how that win record is proof of anything.
If you havn't got the players then you are going to struggle. Imo

Correct, stats mean fook all in football....just ignore the league table...:facepalm:

 

[Gaz]

It doesn't prove his any good either but gives him an excuse to fail.

Phew !

Thats alright then.

 

[Gaz]

Correct, stats mean fook all in football....just ignore the league table...:facepalm:

But thats two different things there isnt it LBB ?

An example for you to show my thinking behind it would be,

If Alex Ferguson was our manager for a season, he wouldn't get the same win record that he would have at Man U, so would that mean that he isnt as good a manager anymore ? :thinking about:


But hey lets not get carried away here, Its all Thorns fault and he is the worst manager we have ever had blah blah blah ....

 

[Grendel]

But thats two different things there isnt it LBB ?
An example for you to show my thinking behind it would be,
If Alex Ferguson was our manager for a season, he wouldn't get the same win record that he would have at
U, so would that mean that he isnt as good a manager anymore ? :thinking about:
But hey lets not get carried away here, Its all Thorns fault
and he is the worst manager we have ever had blah blah blah ....

No one says it is all his fault. Do you blame him at all?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Remember when we lost 12 away games in a row? Or how about winning 2 games by Christmas Day? Such atrocious form and results can only be attributed to the small squad so much.

 

[LeamingtonBootBoy]

But thats two different things there isnt it LBB ?

An example for you to show my thinking behind it would be,

If Alex Ferguson was our manager for a season, he wouldn't get the same win record that he would have at Man U, so would that mean that he isnt as good a manager anymore ? :thinking about:


But hey lets not get carried away here, Its all Thorns fault and he is the worst manager we have ever had blah blah blah ....

Read my posts, gaz....I blame SISU, and have never blamed AT for everything...but he has to take some of the blame...and he fails to recognise this...that is the issue....but let's not get realistic....Thorn is blameless and is the main man blah blah blah blah....

 

[skyblue1523]

i think people are a bit harsh at times AT could do nothing else he could'nt bring players in and when they did it was too late,we've done well to last this long and with a lot of luck we can still escape.pusb

 

[LeamingtonBootBoy]

We've lasted this long because the division is so poor...another reason why our impending relegation is so disappointing.

 

[Grendel]

We've lasted this long because the division is so poor...another reason why our impending relegation is so disappointing.

We will end up 3 or 4 points short. The idea that a manager could not have improved on that is ridiculous. I've just e mailed a mate of mine who supports hull and asked him to look at this. He reckons we are the only club who had fans that would still give thorn hero status. He's right.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

We've lasted this long because the division is so poor...another reason why our impending relegation is so disappointing.

Agreed. We've been given so, so many chances to get out the drop zone and pull clear, but have missed penalties, thrown away leads, and missed sitters to let teams like Bristol off the hook. However, if Ched Evans can score nearly 30 goals in League 1, there's hope for us yet, surely?

 

[Cobi Jones's Dreads]

I canoot knock Thorne, he is a decent and honest man, maybe not the greates Manager but he was put in a no win situation. If you want to blame anyone its his assistants (who are Managers) and SUSU themselves, they put him in the job.

I don't mean to be pedantic pal but could you do a little proof reading of your posts before posting.

 

[Gaz]

No one says it is all his fault. Do you blame him at all?

No question for me that Thorn has made mistakes this season that have cost us points.
But no more than what ever manager we can attract would.

Bottom line for us being where we are is Sisu and not the manager.

Thats my view.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

No question for me that Thorn has made mistakes this season that have cost us points.
But no more than what ever manager we can attract would.

Bottom line for us being where we are is Sisu and not the manager.

Thats my view.

Agree more with you on that one-though the rot started long before SISU arrived.

 

[Gaz]

Read my posts, gaz....I blame SISU, and have never blamed AT for everything...but he has to take some of the blame...and he fails to recognise this...that is the issue....but let's not get realistic....Thorn is blameless and is the main man blah blah blah blah....

Read my posts, Bootboy ...

I have never said Thorn is blameless, But the real reason we are going to be playing in league 1 next season is SISU .... but lets grab our pitchforks and burning torches and go get Thorn because we can't pin anyone down from sisu.

 

[stupot07]

Read my posts, gaz....I blame SISU, and have never blamed AT for everything...but he has to take some of the blame...and he fails to recognise this...that is the issue....but let's not get realistic....Thorn is blameless and is the main man blah blah blah blah....

Do you not think the time for him to hold his hand up and say he's made mistakes is at the end of the season when he can take time to reflect on the season on whole - what went well, what didn't go well, what can i improve? I know he had a bit of a rant about Sisu, but that was in the heat of the moment.

 

[sylus]

We will end up 3 or 4 points short. The idea that a manager could not have improved on that is ridiculous. I've just e mailed a mate of mine who supports hull and asked him to look at this. He reckons we are the only club who had fans that would still give thorn hero status. He's right.

never a hero status with me..

 

[sylus]

thorn cons the thorn lovers with the sympathy vote....blah blah blah.....but thank god there a few who actually see's through his bullshit..

 

[Jack Griffin]

Thoney came soooooooooooooooo close to saying SISU shafted him last Saturday.
I think he knows & understands the score.

If he can deliver something next season despite the crap he has to suffer he should be beatified for sure.