What is going on with the Tory leadership contest? (8 Viewers)

[skybluetony176]

Well actually yes, you are making it up because both Davis or Raab resigned in succession specifically because they realised that the Agreement was being negotiated behind their backs by a team of May’s trusted remainer civil servants.

So neither of them were responsible for the Agreement which is why they voted against it.

Davis never understood the mechanism of what he campaigned for and was massively out of his depth. Remember we’re talking about a man who thought we could do trade deals with individual EU countries. He actually resigned stating that his vision of brexit no longer aligned with the government. Raab also resigned with the same excuse despite taking the job knowing what the governments position was when he took the job. Remember this is Dominic Raab who didn’t know so much cargo passed through Dover so yet again is someone who didn’t understand the mechanics of what he campaigned for. Yet again the funny thing is I’m not even making this up, it’s what actually happened.

 

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[SIR ERNIE]

Deflection and waffle.

You stated that Davis & Raab were responsible for delivering the Agreement that they voted against.

I have explained why they weren’t, and that’s why they were perfectly entitled to vote against it.

 

[Grendel]

Deflection and waffle.

You stated that Davis & Raab were responsible for delivering the Agreement that they voted against.

I have explained why they weren’t, and that’s why they were perfectly entitled to vote against it.

Tony has had a difficult day in terms of basic understanding

 

[skybluetony176]

Deflection and waffle.

You stated that Davis & Raab were responsible for delivering the Agreement that they voted against.

I have explained why they weren’t, and that’s why they were perfectly entitled to vote against it.

They were both brexit secretaries. Of coarse they were responsible for delivering the agreement. Just because you want to give them a free pass doesn’t make them innocent.

 

[skybluetony176]

Tony has had a difficult day in terms of basic understanding

I understood perfectly. It’s you who are struggling with the process of brexit going around in circles without actually making a point. Unless the point was admitting that you don’t understand the process.

 

[fernandopartridge]

Good to see the Magic Money Tree does exist really

 

[skybluetony176]

Good to see the Magic Money Tree does exist really

We send £135M to the EU a week, let’s spend it on a pointless advertising campaign instead.

 

[fernandopartridge]

We send £135M to the EU a week, let’s spend it on a pointless advertising campaign instead.

Propaganda they called it in the old days

 

[Grendel]

I understood perfectly. It’s you who are struggling with the process of brexit going around in circles without actually making a point. Unless the point was admitting that you don’t understand the process.

I’m really not you seemed to think article 50 was triggered at the same time as the withdrawal agreement. I think all that counting of the euros you’ve piled all over the house has got you a headache

 

[skybluetony176]

I’m really not you seemed to think article 50 was triggered at the same time as the withdrawal agreement. I think all that counting of the euros you’ve piled all over the house has got you a headache

I never even remotely suggested any such thing. I in fact pointed out to you on a couple of occasions that once article 50 was enacted it was 18months and nearly 600 pages later the withdrawal agreement was ready for publication and presented to the commons for debate before being voted on. If you seriously got from that that I said Article 50 and the withdrawal agreement was triggered at the same time then you really are lost. That’s before you even get into the fact that you seem to think that the withdrawal agreement and the trade agreement is the same thing. Which it isn’t.

 

[Grendel]

I never even remotely suggested any such thing. I in fact pointed out to you on a couple of occasions that once article 50 was enacted it was 18months and nearly 600 pages later the withdrawal agreement was ready for publication and presented to the commons for debate before being voted on. If you seriously got from that that I said Article 50 and the withdrawal agreement was triggered at the same time then you really are lost. That’s before you even get into the fact that you seem to think that the withdrawal agreement and the trade agreement is the same thing. Which it isn’t.

You said the withdrawal agreement is part of article 50 - it isn’t and I have not mentioned anything about a trade agreement going forward - I asked if the withdrawal agreement is agreed when do we stop trading on current terms with the EU

 

[skybluetony176]

You said the withdrawal agreement is part of article 50 - it isn’t and I have not mentioned anything about a trade agreement going forward - I asked if the withdrawal agreement is agreed when do we stop trading on current terms with the EU

Again you are demonstrating how lost you are as article 50 is a process not a single act. The first part of that process once article 50 is triggered is to negotiate a withdrawal agreement. Article 50 is not open and shut in one day and contains several process over a 4year period excluding extensions which is why we initially had a brexit date of March 2019, 2 years after article 50 was triggered to negotiate a withdrawal agreement. Followed by a 2 year transitional period where amongst other things a future trade agreement is made. This is also why the backstop is needed without a end date because if a trade agreement takes longer than 2 years an extension of the transitional period is required. Again I said on a couple of occasions that the withdrawal agreement took 18months for the government to negotiate.

We stop trading with the EU on the current terms at the end of the transitional period unless an extension is agreed. Currently the transitional period is set to start on November 1st assuming that Boris can get a withdrawal agreement through parliament by then. Otherwise we’re looking at a further extension to renegotiate the withdrawal agreement, cancel article 50 until a government is elected with a vision of brexit that delivers a majority government or we go out on a hard brexit straight onto WTO terms with not just the EU but also the 50 odd non EU countries as Liam “it will be the easiest deal in history” Fox failed to get a continuation of current free trade agreements that we currently enjoy as EU members, that’s assuming that Boris can find a mechanism to do a hard brexit.

 

[Grendel]

Again you are demonstrating how lost you are as article 50 is a process not a single act. The first part of that process once article 50 is triggered is to negotiate a withdrawal agreement. Article 50 is not open and shut in one day and contains several process over a 4year period excluding extensions which is why we initially had a brexit date of March 2019, 2 years after article 50 was triggered to negotiate a withdrawal agreement. Followed by a 2 year transitional period where amongst other things a future trade agreement is made. This is also why the backstop is needed without a end date because if a trade agreement takes longer than 2 years an extension of the transitional period is required. Again I said on a couple of occasions that the withdrawal agreement took 18months for the government to negotiate.

We stop trading with the EU on the current terms at the end of the transitional period unless an extension is agreed. Currently the transitional period is set to start on November 1st assuming that Boris can get a withdrawal agreement through parliament by then. Otherwise we’re looking at a further extension to renegotiate the withdrawal agreement, cancel article 50 until a government is elected with a vision of brexit that delivers a majority government or we go out on a hard brexit straight onto WTO terms with not just the EU but also the 50 odd non EU countries as Liam “it will be the easiest deal in history” Fox failed to get a continuation of current free trade agreements that we currently enjoy as EU members, that’s assuming that Boris can find a mechanism to do a hard brexit.

So how long is the transitional period and how long are we committed to paying into the Eu budget?

 

[skybluetony176]

So how long is the transitional period and how long are we committed to paying into the Eu budget?

I’ve already told you how long the transitional period is, subject to extension in the post you’re replying to.

Your latter question is actually a bit of an unknown quantity. At the moment we’re still contributing as fully paid up members and will be until a withdrawal agreement is passed by parliament and we leave the EU and enter the transitional period of two years subject to any extension, I understand that we’ll still be making a contribution during this period which is also expected to include 75% of the so called divorce bill. But even after that we’ll still be contributing to things like EU pensions to the likes of Nigel “The Man” Ferage aka man of the people. There’s some suggestion that this could be until 2060 although there is a mechanism in place so that we can settle early IIRC.

 

[Grendel]

I’ve already told you how long the transitional period is, subject to extension in the post you’re replying to.

Your latter question is actually a bit of an unknown quantity. At the moment we’re still contributing as fully paid up members and will be until a withdrawal agreement is passed by parliament and we leave the EU and enter the transitional period of two years subject to any extension, I understand that we’ll still be making a contribution during this period which is also expected to include 75% of the so called divorce bill. But even after that we’ll still be contributing to things like EU pensions to the likes of Nigel “The Man” Ferage aka man of the people. There’s some suggestion that this could be until 2060 although there is a mechanism in place so that we can settle early IIRC.

The payments are made in the first 4 years mainly - 50% in year one. The first year includes full membership of the Eu for 2020 does it not?

 

[skybluetony176]

The payments are made in the first 4 years mainly - 50% in year one. The first year includes full membership of the Eu for 2020 does it not?

If that’s the terms of the transitional period then I’m sure you’re most likely correct. I remember reading that 75% of the divorce bill should be paid off by the end of the transitional period so 50% in the first year of the transitional period seems possible. IIRC trade wise nothing changes with regards to access to the common market during the transitional period. Not sure if that qualifies us as full EU members because the way I understand it if we leave on the 31st of October, we’ve left and no longer have a say or representation in the European Parliament. Same as if we’d left in March we wouldn’t have taken part in the European Elections in May.

 

[fernandopartridge]

The EU runs in 7 year programmes, we still pay because we've already drawn down funding from the 2014-2020 programme.

 

[Grendel]

The EU runs in 7 year programmes, we still pay because we've already drawn down funding from the 2014-2020 programme.

Indeed

 

[skybluetony176]

The EU runs in 7 year programmes, we still pay because we've already drawn down funding from the 2014-2020 programme.

Sounds about right. Probably why the divorce bill isn’t a fixed amount. I think on the Ugov website it refers to it as between £35-39B.

 

[Grendel]

Sounds about right. Probably why the divorce bill isn’t a fixed amount. I think on the Ugov website it refers to it as between £35-39B.

On the current withdrawal agreement terms. Its £33b now - on the current terms

 

[fernandopartridge]

Some variation in the final bill will be the exchange rate. It's going to cost us more with the weak £. However, on the other hand the UK government get more money that hasn't yet been drawn down for our programmes from the EU, this happened a few years ago after the financial crash.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

It was agreed by the government following negotiations which including brexiteers such as David Davis and Dominic Raab. Fortunately for them the so called by some traitor Gina Miller made sure that parliament had to ratify the withdrawal agreement giving Davis and Raab the opportunity to vote against the so called by some treasonous withdrawal agreement they’d been responsible for delivering. The funny thing is I’m not even making this up, it’s what actually happened.

So perhaps knowing all they know...they think no-deal is a better option for Britain? Or maybe they know that the remit they were given by TM was not broad or challenging enough.

THE DEAL is all the is on offer even now...apparently...we shall see! A little like preparedness...report from the CBI suggests we are actually better prepared for a no-deal, whilst you have lapped up the fact that the EU was (supposedly according to the press funnily enough) better prepared.

I am thinking - why have they not simply said sod-off Britain? Do they really need so badly they want a happy ending? You betcha!

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[skybluetony176]

So perhaps knowing all they know...they think no-deal is a better option for Britain?

Well they clearly know fuck all so if you’re clinging onto what they have to say as some sort of barometer you’re setting yourself up for disappointment.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

Deflection and waffle.

You stated that Davis & Raab were responsible for delivering the Agreement that they voted against.

I have explained why they weren’t, and that’s why they were perfectly entitled to vote against it.

Plus once we have left...others might break EU ranks to ensure they don't lose out massively. Like Spain with the holidaymakers for one

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[SkyblueBazza]

They were both brexit secretaries. Of coarse they were responsible for delivering the agreement. Just because you want to give them a free pass doesn’t make them innocent.

Tony...negotiators are given priorities & specific boundaries which they are forbidden to give way on. Their hands were tied just like the EU negotiators

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[skybluetony176]

I see the duplicity of populism reared it’s head today. Boris in front of a Scottish audience dismissed Goves comments regarding no deal brexit only later to agree with them in a statement. Not even been in the job a week and the contradictionometer is already working overtime.

 

[skybluetony176]

Tony...negotiators are given priorities & specific boundaries which they are forbidden to give way on. Their hands were tied just like the EU negotiators

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So why did Davis not understand that he couldn’t negotiate individual trade deals with individual EU countries? Why did Raab admit to having no understanding of how much trade traveled through Dover? Their brief has nothing to do with their understanding of brexit or what happens at the port of Dover? We’re not talking national secrets here we’re talking about a man down the pub understanding of the world.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

I see the duplicity of populism reared it’s head today. Boris in front of a Scottish audience dismissed Goves comments regarding no deal brexit only later to agree with them in a statement. Not even been in the job a week and the contradictionometer is already working overtime.

Well depending how you look at it - rather than welcoming Bojo & hoping fpr good relations movimg fwd...why don't the EU simply say "There is nothing more to say, accept the deal & get it through parliament Boris, or fuck-off!"?

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[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Does the word 'diplomacy' mean anything to you?

 

[skybluetony176]

Well depending how you look at it - rather than welcoming Bojo & hoping fpr good relations movimg fwd...why don't the EU simply say "There is nothing more to say, accept the deal & get it through parliament Boris, or fuck-off!"?

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So it’s the EU’s fault that Boris contradicts himself in one day depending on the audience? That’s not even mentioning that both statements also contradicted what he was saying during his election campaign.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

Does the word 'diplomacy' mean anything to you?

Yeah, substitute 'diplomacy' for 'bollocks' mostly

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[SkyblueBazza]

So it’s the EU’s fault that Boris contradicts himself in one day depending on the audience? That’s not even mentioning that both statements also contradicted what he was saying during his election campaign.

Is it?

Wouldn't surprises me tbh...the EU contradicts itself too

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[Deleted member 5849]

'bollocks'

 

[shmmeee]

Plus once we have left...others might break EU ranks to ensure they don't lose out massively. Like Spain with the holidaymakers for one

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Aaaarrrrgggghh!

Stop it! Stop the magical thinking!

Brexit is seen as a massive massive fuck up across the world. We have made the EU stronger by making such a shit job of leaving. Countries aren’t about to “break ranks”, the EU aren’t about to change their rules just for us.

The bollocks about German cars was bollocks. The bollocks about countries lining up for free trade was bollocks. The Brexit bonus was bollocks. It’s all bollocks!

FFS gambling the entire country and the future of my kids on “Oh maybe pigs will fly” is just fucking insanity. It’s magical thinking on par with the mentalist accelerationist left who think we need a revolution to overthrow Capitalism.

Jesus Christ if your wife said “let’s get in the car and drive into the sea, maybe we’ll find Atlantis and get rich” you’d laugh her all the way to the mental home. Yet here you are basically arguing the same thing like we should run the country on this thinking.

Just stop.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

Aaaarrrrgggghh!

Stop it! Stop the magical thinking!

Brexit is seen as a massive massive fuck up across the world. We have made the EU stronger by making such a shit job of leaving. Countries aren’t about to “break ranks”, the EU aren’t about to change their rules just for us.

The bollocks about German cars was bollocks. The bollocks about countries lining up for free trade was bollocks. The Brexit bonus was bollocks. It’s all bollocks!

FFS gambling the entire country and the future of my kids on “Oh maybe pigs will fly” is just fucking insanity. It’s magical thinking on par with the mentalist accelerationist left who think we need a revolution to overthrow Capitalism.

Jesus Christ if your wife said “let’s get in the car and drive into the sea, maybe we’ll find Atlantis and get rich” you’d laugh her all the way to the mental home. Yet here you are basically arguing the same thing like we should run the country on this thinking.

Just stop.

You think Brexit is a bad thing,.or a good thing then?

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