What is going on with the Tory leadership contest? (17 Viewers)

[skybluetony176]

Aaaarrrrgggghh!

Stop it! Stop the magical thinking!

Brexit is seen as a massive massive fuck up across the world. We have made the EU stronger by making such a shit job of leaving. Countries aren’t about to “break ranks”, the EU aren’t about to change their rules just for us.

The bollocks about German cars was bollocks. The bollocks about countries lining up for free trade was bollocks. The Brexit bonus was bollocks. It’s all bollocks!

FFS gambling the entire country and the future of my kids on “Oh maybe pigs will fly” is just fucking insanity. It’s magical thinking on par with the mentalist accelerationist left who think we need a revolution to overthrow Capitalism.

Jesus Christ if your wife said “let’s get in the car and drive into the sea, maybe we’ll find Atlantis and get rich” you’d laugh her all the way to the mental home. Yet here you are basically arguing the same thing like we should run the country on this thinking.

Just stop.

Yeah but you’re forgetting about the cheese and wine bollocks too and the fact that the brits are the only nation to holiday in Spain. It’s easy to be negative when you don’t have all the facts

 

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[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Yeah, substitute 'diplomacy' for 'bollocks' mostly

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So you don't understand the word diplomacy then.

There is stuff beyond Brexit that will continue to require EU countries working together with us. Humanitarian and aid relief, disaster zones, conflicts. So to ensure these can run smoothly you ensure you remain cordial and polite, rather than just issuing a 'fuck off' and cutting off your nose to spite your face. You may have a bit of an 'empire' attitude that we can do everything by ourselves, but others are more pragmatic. They know we can prove a useful ally (as they can be useful allies to us) so don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

You can tell from the likes of Barnier, and even some of the leaders like Macron and Merkel, that they're tired and pissed off with the situation - 3 years since voting to leave and we still haven't decided on why we want to leave, let alone what we want after it. But they're still on the whole retaining their decorum.

At times I almost see a similarity to a parent trying to keep their cool with a toddler having a tantrum.

 

[skybluetony176]

So you don't understand the word diplomacy then.

There is stuff beyond Brexit that will continue to require EU countries working together with us. Humanitarian and aid relief, disaster zones, conflicts. So to ensure these can run smoothly you ensure you remain cordial and polite, rather than just issuing a 'fuck off' and cutting off your nose to spite your face. You may have a bit of an 'empire' attitude that we can do everything by ourselves, but others are more pragmatic. They know we can prove a useful ally (as they can be useful allies to us) so don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

You can tell from the likes of Barnier, and even some of the leaders like Macron and Merkel, that they're tired and pissed off with the situation - 3 years since voting to leave and we still haven't decided on why we want to leave, let alone what we want after it. But they're still on the whole retaining their decorum.

At times I almost see a similarity to a parent trying to keep their cool with a toddler having a tantrum.

Just look at the issues in the gulf with protecting tankers flying the British ensign. We went to America and trump said we’re on our own, so we went to the EU who have said that they’ll help as per our request.

The funny thing here is that trump has torn up the Paris peace accord and then told everyone that they’re on their own whereas the EU is trying to diffuse the situation by honouring the peace accord and keeping lines of diplomacy open with Iran yet are willing to help protect British shipping in the gulf.

Did I also read somewhere that the only reason we got involved and detained the Iranian tanker of the coast of Gibraltar was because the US requested us too? If that’s the case when the US make such requests in the future we should tell them that they’re on their own.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

So you don't understand the word diplomacy then.

There is stuff beyond Brexit that will continue to require EU countries working together with us. Humanitarian and aid relief, disaster zones, conflicts. So to ensure these can run smoothly you ensure you remain cordial and polite, rather than just issuing a 'fuck off' and cutting off your nose to spite your face. You may have a bit of an 'empire' attitude that we can do everything by ourselves, but others are more pragmatic. They know we can prove a useful ally (as they can be useful allies to us) so don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

You can tell from the likes of Barnier, and even some of the leaders like Macron and Merkel, that they're tired and pissed off with the situation - 3 years since voting to leave and we still haven't decided on why we want to leave, let alone what we want after it. But they're still on the whole retaining their decorum.

At times I almost see a similarity to a parent trying to keep their cool with a toddler having a tantrum.

Ok on a serious note...none of the things you refer to will be affected except some petulance from one side or the other, or both
.
We will still work together effectively with others on issues like international crime & terrorism. Things like that are in everyone's best interests. That sort of thing has however been used as a scare tactic by some doom merchants.

And that is what gets my goat. I chose to remain...the result was to leave. We need to leave & get on with it. The same arguments are being levelled now on this thread as were 2yrs ago. The same disrespect to 'stupid, 'idiots' who voted leave, assumptions they 'didn't know what they were voting for' or are jingoistic or far right insults...petulance at it's finest

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[Grendel]

Johnson I think will call an election and the lines are set - Tory Candidates will have to agree to a manifesto pledge to vote to leave on October 31 - the parties establish their positions and if a majority is across the line it’s delivered

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Ok on a serious note...none of the things you refer to will be affected except some petulance from one side or the other, or both
.
We will still work together effectively with others on issues like international crime & terrorism. Things like that are in everyone's best interests. That sort of thing has however been used as a scare tactic by some doom merchants.

And that is what gets my goat. I chose to remain...the result was to leave. We need to leave & get on with it. The same arguments are being levelled now on this thread as were 2yrs ago. The same disrespect to 'stupid, 'idiots' who voted leave, assumptions they 'didn't know what they were voting for' or are jingoistic or far right insults...petulance at it's finest

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I'm not arguing about that - you made the point of why don't the EU just tell us to fuck off - I explained why. We still have to work with them afterwards so why create tension where it is unnecessary. I agree that on much of the things you'd hope basic human decency would shine through, but then look at Trump - the second he even so much as perceives any slight against him and he's petulant and crass. And that's who we're looking to ally ourselves with more after we've left the EU.

Ok, he won't be in charge forever but let's face it - the Americans see us as their lapdogs who'll just faithfully follow them whatever they do - Reagan, Clinton, Bush x2 and Obama before largely treated us with disdain. We get far more respect from the EU.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Just look at the issues in the gulf with protecting tankers flying the British ensign. We went to America and trump said we’re on our own, so we went to the EU who have said that they’ll help as per our request.

The funny thing here is that trump has torn up the Paris peace accord and then told everyone that they’re on their own whereas the EU is trying to diffuse the situation by honouring the peace accord and keeping lines of diplomacy open with Iran yet are willing to help protect British shipping in the gulf.

Did I also read somewhere that the only reason we got involved and detained the Iranian tanker of the coast of Gibraltar was because the US requested us too? If that’s the case when the US make such requests in the future we should tell them that they’re on their own.

This is a very good example. We also find similar with arrest warrants - if the US issues a warrant for a British citizen they expect us to hand them over immediately. If we issue one for an American they tend to fight it. They don't see us (or anyone else for that matter) as an equal trading partner but someone there to do as they're told. In many ways the US has become it's parent - colonial Britain.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

I'm not arguing about that - you made the point of why don't the EU just tell us to fuck off - I explained why. We still have to work with them afterwards so why create tension where it is unnecessary. I agree that on much of the things you'd hope basic human decency would shine through, but then look at Trump - the second he even so much as perceives any slight against him and he's petulant and crass. And that's who we're looking to ally ourselves with more after we've left the EU.

Ok, he won't be in charge forever but let's face it - the Americans see us as their lapdogs who'll just faithfully follow them whatever they do - Reagan, Clinton, Bush x2 and Obama before largely treated us with disdain. We get far more respect from the EU.

Maybe we do, but I suspect the future world view of the UK differs from the EU's which I think is a reason a great many of leavers voted to do so.

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[SkyblueBazza]

This is a very good example. We also find similar with arrest warrants - if the US issues a warrant for a British citizen they expect us to hand them over immediately. If we issue one for an American they tend to fight it. They don't see us (or anyone else for that matter) as an equal trading partner but someone there to do as they're told. In many ways the US has become it's parent - colonial Britain.

Now that is bollocks. We don't just hand people over on a whim. They have a perhaps longer tedious process to ours - but there is a process which is followed. And it is no different for the US than it is for Australia, India or wherever

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[Grendel]

This is a very good example. We also find similar with arrest warrants - if the US issues a warrant for a British citizen they expect us to hand them over immediately. If we issue one for an American they tend to fight it. They don't see us (or anyone else for that matter) as an equal trading partner but someone there to do as they're told. In many ways the US has become it's parent - colonial Britain.

The European arrest warrant is the iron fist of the USSR and every civil libertarian opposes it

 

[SkyblueBazza]

Just look at the issues in the gulf with protecting tankers flying the British ensign. We went to America and trump said we’re on our own, so we went to the EU who have said that they’ll help as per our request.

The funny thing here is that trump has torn up the Paris peace accord and then told everyone that they’re on their own whereas the EU is trying to diffuse the situation by honouring the peace accord and keeping lines of diplomacy open with Iran yet are willing to help protect British shipping in the gulf.

Did I also read somewhere that the only reason we got involved and detained the Iranian tanker of the coast of Gibraltar was because the US requested us too? If that’s the case when the US make such requests in the future we should tell them that they’re on their own.

Wrong.

Trump offered...May declined. She requested EU back-up instead, because the Iran seizure came as an alleged direct result of the UK enforcing EU sanctions against Syria. Now THAT is sensible diplomacy.

As for your last point, no doubt seizing the tanker was backing up intelligence from somewhere (yes I believe it was the US) that Iran were busting EU sanctions on Syria. Whether it came from the US, Israel, Japan or Russian matters not - there are sanctions agreed, I'm not sure if other EU countries are doing anything to enforce the sanctions...though I wouldn't be surprised if some of them were doing more to somehow overcome them instead.

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[skybluetony176]

The European arrest warrant is the iron fist of the USSR and every civil libertarian opposes it

What’s the USSR?

 

[Grendel]

What’s the USSR?

Seriously?

 

[skybluetony176]

Seriously?

Yes seriously. There’s no such thing.

 

[Grendel]

Yes seriously. There’s no such thing.

Er it was in response to a colonial statement from ccfc dreamer - there’s no such thing there either - oh well over your head I guess.

I’d be careful Tony. You’ll be arriving in Benidorm with your suitcases packed with Euro’s and you could be arrested with no evidence if wrong doing and sent back home.

 

[skybluetony176]

Er it was in response to a colonial statement from ccfc dreamer - there’s no such thing there either - oh well over your head I guess.

I’d be careful Tony. You’ll be arriving in Benidorm with your suitcases packed with Euro’s and you could be arrested with no evidence if wrong doing and sent back home.

Good one. I’m not going to Benidorm but whatever. So how is the EAW the iron fist of Russia?

 

[Grendel]

Good one. I’m not going to Benidorm but whatever. So how is the EAW the iron fist of Russia?

Russia isn’t and never was the USSR Tony

 

[skybluetony176]

Russia isn’t and never was the USSR Tony

So which former republic of the ussr are you referring to?

 

[Grendel]

So which former republic of the ussr are you referring to?

With respect Tony I’ve addressed the discussion to another poster.

It’s clearly beyond you so why don’t you keep to your new career as a currency speculator and making enough money to afford 1 extra Manuels mega full English when you arrive at Costa Wherever

 

[SIR ERNIE]

Johnson I think will call an election and the lines are set - Tory Candidates will have to agree to a manifesto pledge to vote to leave on October 31 - the parties establish their positions and if a majority is across the line it’s delivered

I think and hope you’re right.

Boris is clearly setting about creating a positive, can-do feel in the country and whilst positivity is a dirty word to some, I suspect that given the gloom and negativity of the Left and the May era, he will win sufficient support to gain a majority. People want to feel good about this great country and he’s tapping into that.

Let’s face it, when his opposition is headed up by Corbyn and that Lib Undem woman, the very epitome of gloom and negativity, the time will never be better.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Er it was in response to a colonial statement from ccfc dreamer - there’s no such thing there either

Read it properly. I said the US is acting like colonial Britain did (who were massively instrumental in forging the USA pre-independence) in giving it the Bertie Big-Bollocks and expecting everyone to toe their line.

The analogy was that of a teenager fed up of their parents rules and wanting to be free of them, but ultimately end up pretty much turning into them.

It was a historical reference, not a current one.

The European arrest warrant is the iron fist of the USSR

Your quote on the other hand states the EAW is the iron fist of a country that ceased to exist nearly 3 decades ago.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Now that is bollocks. We don't just hand people over on a whim. They have a perhaps longer tedious process to ours - but there is a process which is followed. And it is no different for the US than it is for Australia, India or wherever

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Yes there is a process that is followed, and undoubtedly evidence is provided. But surely you've noticed that when they present this evidence they appear to expect us to just hand over the suspect immediately. If we review the evidence and decline extradition their response is largely one of "how dare you - we're America!".

Other way round and the response comes across as "why should you have the right to detain an American citizen?". They don't see it as an equal thing - it's "you give us whoever we ask for. We'll think about sending you people"

If they have a 'longer tedious process' why should they not expect us to have the same?

 

[Deleted member 5849]

I think and hope you’re right.

Boris is clearly setting about creating a positive, can-do feel in the country and whilst positivity is a dirty word to some, I suspect that given the gloom and negativity of the Left and the May era, he will win sufficient support to gain a majority. People want to feel good about this great country and he’s tapping into that.

Let’s face it, when his opposition is headed up by Corbyn and that Lib Undem woman, the very epitome of gloom and negativity, the time will never be better.

The last Labour manifesto was a very positive thing.

Backed up with actual costings, like.

 

[skybluetony176]

With respect Tony I’ve addressed the discussion to another poster.

It’s clearly beyond you so why don’t you keep to your new career as a currency speculator and making enough money to afford 1 extra Manuels mega full English when you arrive at Costa Wherever

That’s funny. Did you see the post I made on the very subject of the pound and said I expect to see a rise on the confirmation that Boris had the job followed by a fall. The only thing that’s surprised me is that the rise didn’t last longer and go higher. The fall certainly came quicker than I expected although now it’s started falling I suspect it won’t stop until it’s at an all time low against both the Euro and the USD since the referendum. If you haven’t changed your Pounds for your summer holiday yet don’t hold on in the hope it gets better before you go, change it today would be my advice.

I’m a vegetarian by the way so no full English for me.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

On the plus side, if the pound falls just a little bit more to a straight one for one, it'd be nice and easy for us to join the Euro without anyone noticing a change in prices...

 

[SkyblueBazza]

Yes there is a process that is followed, and undoubtedly evidence is provided. But surely you've noticed that when they present this evidence they appear to expect us to just hand over the suspect immediately. If we review the evidence and decline extradition their response is largely one of "how dare you - we're America!".

Other way round and the response comes across as "why should you have the right to detain an American citizen?". They don't see it as an equal thing - it's "you give us whoever we ask for. We'll think about sending you people"

If they have a 'longer tedious process' why should they not expect us to have the same?

Yes they do have the same attitude/expectation that we have (but we still follow the process) it's just that we are less starkly expressive about it

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[SkyblueBazza]

The last Labour manifesto was a very positive thing.

Backed up with actual costings, like.

Depends who you ask...
‘Labour knew its 2017 election manifesto was full of holes’

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[Grendel]

The last Labour manifesto was a very positive thing.

Backed up with actual costings, like.

Was it fuck

 

[Ian1779]

Depends who you ask...
‘Labour knew its 2017 election manifesto was full of holes’

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If you have to quote John Rentoul to make your point you’ve already lost the argument.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

If you have to quote John Rentoul to make your point you’ve already lost the argument.

That was the first I came to...here are a few more:

FactCheck: the Labour manifesto

Analysis: do Labour's manifesto pledges add up?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAFegQIBxAB&usg=AOvVaw0_Zf69soGtzxAKZTZf8UEE

British Chamber of Commerce director general Adam Marshall: "High personal taxation, sweeping nationalisation and deep intervention in business decision-making are not the hallmarks of an ambitious and enterprising society. Taken together, some of the headline propositions in the Labour Party manifesto will give business communities across the UK real cause for concern

CBI director general Carolyn Fairbairn: "Labour's proposals taken as a whole prioritise state intervention over enterprise, and fail to offer the pro-growth and competitiveness agenda the country so badly needs

Paul Johnson, Institute of Fiscal Studies:"They're suggesting a £50bn increase in tax which, it were to be implemented by the way, would take the tax burden in this country to the highest level it's been in about 70 years. But actually, there's an awful lot of uncertainty about whether you can actually raise that amount of tax. They are talking about very, very large increases in taxes on companies which would likely reduce the amount of investment that they do. I think the actual amount you could get from these policies certainly runs into the tens of billions, but probably doesn't reach the £50bn that Labour are claiming."

Your fair and balanced guide to the draft Labour manifesto

If you'd like any more - maybe google it yourself. The consensus seems to be that it was NOT a deliverable manifesto because there were too many unanswered questions on funding it. Oh, & that it was an ambitious & bold manifesto from a party leader with nothing to lose given opinion poll standings.

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[clint van damme]

That was the first I came to...here are a few more:

FactCheck: the Labour manifesto

Analysis: do Labour's manifesto pledges add up?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAFegQIBxAB&usg=AOvVaw0_Zf69soGtzxAKZTZf8UEE

British Chamber of Commerce director general Adam Marshall: "High personal taxation, sweeping nationalisation and deep intervention in business decision-making are not the hallmarks of an ambitious and enterprising society. Taken together, some of the headline propositions in the Labour Party manifesto will give business communities across the UK real cause for concern

CBI director general Carolyn Fairbairn: "Labour's proposals taken as a whole prioritise state intervention over enterprise, and fail to offer the pro-growth and competitiveness agenda the country so badly needs

Paul Johnson, Institute of Fiscal Studies:"They're suggesting a £50bn increase in tax which, it were to be implemented by the way, would take the tax burden in this country to the highest level it's been in about 70 years. But actually, there's an awful lot of uncertainty about whether you can actually raise that amount of tax. They are talking about very, very large increases in taxes on companies which would likely reduce the amount of investment that they do. I think the actual amount you could get from these policies certainly runs into the tens of billions, but probably doesn't reach the £50bn that Labour are claiming."

Your fair and balanced guide to the draft Labour manifesto

If you'd like any more - maybe google it yourself. The consensus seems to be that it was NOT a deliverable manifesto because there were too many unanswered questions on funding it. Oh, & that it was an ambitious & bold manifesto from a party leader with nothing to lose given opinion poll standings.

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Boris said last week there is little chance of a no deal Brexit yet this week has shook the magic money tree and found a further 2 billion to prepare for such an eventuality.
Yet you continue to obsess about a Labour manifesto form 2 years ago.
Why is that?

I'd have much more respect for you if you just admitted you're a Tory rather than trotting out this look at it from both sides bullshit be a use you never actually do.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

Boris said last week there is little chance of a no deal Brexit yet this week has shook the magic money tree and found a further 2 billion to prepare for such an eventuality.
Yet you continue to obsess about a Labour manifesto form 2 years ago.
Why is that?

I'd have much more respect for you if you just admitted you're a Tory rather than trotting out this look at it from both sides bullshit be a use you never actually do.

Get it right, I don't think anyone is obsessing about it...NW commented on it first. I merely responded to his claim that it was 'fully costed' & then to subsequent replies to that.

As for respect:

1. I don't want or need yours.
2. I would respect you more if you didn't feel the need to do what you just did - targeting the wrong people, argument &/or opinions.

And I DO look at it from both sides - & after careful consideration , I admit that about 2/3 of the time I slant away from the Labour position. Blame Labour - not me!

As for Bojo's propoganda(?)...he is doing what he said he would. Ramping up preparation for Brexit on 31st October. Not so long ago accusations (ill-founded it now appears according to CBI at least) that we were lacking in preparations & the EU were streets ahead of us!

You seem to like the alternative options of remain, or remain for as long as it takes for an acceptable agreement to be reached...a major incentive to NOT fully engage in negotiations & we remain in limbo. THAT will do far greater harm to the UK than Brexit imo.

Now bore off!

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[clint van damme]

Get it right, I don't think anyone is obsessing about it - you do.

targeting the wrong people, argument &/or opinions - I don't target anyone, but some things trigger a response, in your case it's drivel like -

And I DO look at it from both sides - absolute bollocks.

As for Bojo's propoganda - you even call him bojo for fucks sake.

You seem to like the alternative options of remain - wrong again, in as much as I think remain would have been the correct choice but as the vote was leave it should be implemented as I have said numerous times.

Now bore off! - HAHA!

 

[SkyblueBazza]

Get it right, I don't think anyone is obsessing about it - you do.

targeting the wrong people, argument &/or opinions - I don't target anyone, but some things trigger a response, in your case it's drivel like -

And I DO look at it from both sides - absolute bollocks.

As for Bojo's propoganda - you even call him bojo for fucks sake.

You seem to like the alternative options of remain - wrong again, in as much as I think remain would have been the correct choice but as the vote was leave it should be implemented as I have said numerous times.

Now bore off! - HAHA!

Thank you for your measured petulant response...the usual suspects will be along to add their likes too in due course

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[clint van damme]

Thank you for your measured petulant response...the usual suspects will be along to add their likes too in due course

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petulant?! You're a card Baz!
Why don't you read CCFCSteves posts? I don' always agree with him but there is someone who sees things from both sides.
If after reading his posts you still consider yourself impartial then there's no hope for you!