Ask Neil (3 Viewers)

[Grendel]

If we extended that to the club;'s owners it's not necessarily as nonsensical, mind you.

They would not refuse a short term deal

 

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[Grendel]

That's an entirely different matter though @Grendel, isn't it? So did the Council "force" the sale of CCFC to SISU or not? I say, not. Blame the Council for whatever you like, but they didn't force the sale of CCFC to SISU. As you said, they were the 'most appropriate' party.

Yes they did they controlled the bidding process as they wanted the sale to avoid administration - Ken Taylor rejected other bids - one group had one discussion with the council said they were the most impossible people they met and went home

Sisu were the most appropriate only to allow the council to keep playing business games - they were not appropriate for the club but the club were only there to feed the councils little management toy and prop it up

 

[Grendel]

I'm fairly sure control of the process lay with the Co-op bank anyway. They'd lost patience, wanted to call it in, and had reached favourable terms with SISU for repayment. So it was either that, or admin.

Elliott, Robinson et al in their wisdom preferred SISU to admin. Again, I can only assume the terms were beneficial to creditors (which was Robinson really, with a bit of McGinnity) compared to the alternative. Someone wiser than me could explain why SISU never went for clubs in admin (our current MEP Rupert Lowe preferred admin to SISU, after all!)

If the club had gone into administration then the administrators would have controlled the process and determined the best bidder - which would not have been in the interests of most impacted parties - ACL would have gone under while the process played out as its revenue streams were not sufficient to sustain the loan payment

It’s inconceivable that any other prospective buyer would have paid the obscene rent, would have wanted access to match revenue at worse and probably would have wanted control of ACL with no dumb strings attached

 

[clint van damme]

I have to say that even though I don't like the weird clique orca surrounds himself with on Twitter, he's spot on. It is time to see a long term plan and then some actual plans for a new stadium in Coventry.

Sent from my ELE-L29 using Tapatalk

My worry is that if whatever assurances Robins was given don't start to come to fruition he'll walk.

 

[chiefdave]

So SISU was the most appropriate bidder. Best of a bad bunch. Blaming the Council for CCFC being sold to the 'most appropriate' bidder seems a bit of a stretch. We are where we are, and what they've done since then has been catastrophic.

Most appropriate is highly dependent on what viewpoint you're looking from. Most appropriate for the council can be, and in this case was, very different to the best option for the club.

If you recall the club to all intents and purposes went through an administration process which KMPG were called in to perform. The only reason we didn't technically go into admin is because those owed money believed they would get a better return if new owners could be found without taking a points deduction.

There was 7 bidders, some of whom were never made public. 6 of them identified ownership of the Ricoh as essential, only 1 didn't and that was the one the council favoured. The other 6 all fell away as they realised the club owning the stadium was not an option the council would consider.

So yes, the council played a very significant role in SISU becoming the clubs owners.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

If the club had gone into administration then the administrators would have controlled the process and determined the best bidder - which would not have been in the interests of most impacted parties - ACL would have gone under while the process played out as its revenue streams were not sufficient to sustain the loan payment

It’s inconceivable that any other prospective buyer would have paid the obscene rent, would have wanted access to match revenue at worse and probably would have wanted control of ACL with no dumb strings attached

That doesn't actually answer why SISU actively avoided clubs in administration.

It was ultimately the Co-op bank who wrenched control from Robinson, and pushed the process on.

 

[Grendel]

That doesn't actually answer why SISU actively avoided clubs in administration.

It was ultimately the Co-op bank who wrenched control from Robinson, and pushed the process on.

Well it does answer it and the co-op bank had no ability to push the process on - people weren’t surrendering shares to help the co op bank out

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Well it does answer it and the co-op bank had no ability to push the process on - people weren’t surrendering shares to help the co op bank out

They did. They were about to call in their debt and the choice was either administration or SISU. The bank preferred SISU, Robinson preferred SISU. Therefore it was advantageous for the club to push SISU.

So why didn't SISU go for Southampton when they went into administration? I must have missed that answer!

 

[Grendel]

They did. They were about to call in their debt and the choice was either administration or SISU. The bank preferred SISU, Robinson preferred SISU. Therefore it was advantageous for the club to push SISU.

So why didn't SISU go for Southampton when they went into administration? I must have missed that answer!

Because they wouldn’t have definitely been the preferred bidder in a process they had no control over

They wanted absolute control and they were obviously working on a tight timeline which probably had more to do with Ranson and where he wanted to stick Prozone and the deal he struck with Sisu regarding payments. Ranson clearly got sisu interested and in the end Ranson wanted a tool to trouser money from a football club

 

[Grendel]

They did. They were about to call in their debt and the choice was either administration or SISU. The bank preferred SISU, Robinson preferred SISU. Therefore it was advantageous for the club to push SISU.

So why didn't SISU go for Southampton when they went into administration? I must have missed that answer!

They couldn’t call in the debt it would never have been paid

 

[chiefdave]

The engagement is a 2 way thing though, the trust essentially cut themselves off from the club. They have gone along to the supporters forum meetings with other groups but engagement between trust and club hasn't been good enough from either side.

As recently as December the trust were the only supporters group to refuse to sign the clubs statement that we should remain playing at the Ricoh during the current season and beyond and that no deal to stay at the stadium would be catastrophic.

When they're doing things like that and refusing to say anything against Wasps or the council its hardly surprising the relationship is a bit strained.

 

[chiefdave]

Ranson clearly got sisu interested and in the end Ranson wanted a tool to trouser money from a football club

Don't know why some people believe SISU wanted to buy a football club. Its clear that Ranson was driving it, to SISU it was no different to any other investment, put x in get y out.

They didn't pay the slightest bit of attention to what was happening at the club until Ranson made a spectacular mess of it. The idea that people throw around, that SISU only bought the club to get the stadium, is crazy.

 

[Adge]

My worry is that if whatever assurances Robins was given don't start to come to fruition he'll walk.

Yep, then all the good work will be undone and the house may we’ll come tumbling down.

 

[Hobo]

Don't know why some people believe SISU wanted to buy a football club. Its clear that Ranson was driving it, to SISU it was no different to any other investment, put x in get y out.

They didn't pay the slightest bit of attention to what was happening at the club until Ranson made a spectacular mess of it. The idea that people throw around, that SISU only bought the club to get the stadium, is crazy.

I agree the stadium wasnt their plan A that was a quick return to the Premier League.

Once that was messed up alternatives to recoup their money and the real mess of stratergies started.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

They couldn’t call in the debt it would never have been paid

They'd have got something. As it happened the SISU deal offered them more than something - that was attractive.

It's not just the debt that's sat there, it's also that the former board had shown irresponsibility - as an example, once the Malky McKay deal fell through the bank took the money that was needed to service the debt they already had, stop it growing! There was actually no money there to even buy a player, the Stern John cash should have gone to the bank too.

Frankly the Co-op had lost any patience with them, and wanted out. They'd put up with the 'internal administration' McGinnity ran as a hope of getting things back but, funnily ernough, the board at the time couldn't even do that well. Robinson's Operation Premiership was a desperate throw of the dice that failed. The SISU deal was preferable to administration for the Co-op, but administration was preferable to the Status Quo.

 

[Grendel]

Don't know why some people believe SISU wanted to buy a football club. Its clear that Ranson was driving it, to SISU it was no different to any other investment, put x in get y out.

They didn't pay the slightest bit of attention to what was happening at the club until Ranson made a spectacular mess of it. The idea that people throw around, that SISU only bought the club to get the stadium, is crazy.

The other bizarre thing is how idiots like Ginetta swallowed Ransons bullshit about his football plan

If he’d said to Sisu who in reality were his partners that stadium ownership was the key to success that’s where they’d have targeted it. Ranson just wanted to dump his company, pay himself a inflated directors fee, charge Wonga interest rates against his company and making the club pay it

Then he does a dodgy loan scheme with Ridsdale at Cardiff and gets investigated by the FA

Even more worrying he Hoffman and Elliot his two complicit buddies in this shitfest are still lurking around and seem to be the trusts people of choice

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Then he does a dodgy loan scheme with Ridsdale at Cardiff and gets investigated by the FA

Was also responsible in part for Leeds' disasters.

Joe Elliot's judgement as to what makes a good board member is well documented. He's managed to nail his colours to the mast of just about every disaster going!

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Most appropriate bidder in Coventry

Least appropriate in Swansea, Nottingham, Ipswich, Hull and Doncaster

The council in selling out to a London franchise made the biggest catastrophic decision regarding this clubs long term stability

Yep think that’s absolutely clear

 

[Hobo]

They'd have got something. As it happened the SISU deal offered them more than something - that was attractive.

It's not just the debt that's sat there, it's also that the former board had shown irresponsibility - as an example, once the Malky McKay deal fell through the bank took the money that was needed to service the debt they already had, stop it growing! There was actually no money there to even buy a player, the Stern John cash should have gone to the bank too.

Frankly the Co-op had lost any patience with them, and wanted out. They'd put up with the 'internal administration' McGinnity ran as a hope of getting things back but, funnily ernough, the board at the time couldn't even do that well. Robinson's Operation Premiership was a desperate throw of the dice that failed. The SISU deal was preferable to administration for the Co-op, but administration was preferable to the Status Quo.

The Co-op bank was also heavily involved with too many football clubs who were carrying large debt and were getting the jitters over their own mismanagement.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

The Co-op bank was also heavily involved with too many football clubs who were carrying large debt and were getting the jitters over their own mismanagement.

Yup. From their perspective, they came out quite well with us, I think!

 

[oldskyblue58]

SISU paid £1m for the option on the Higgs shares.

No they didn't. The charity never received anything from sisu. The £1m was a paper figure in the sbs&l accounts only

 

[Grendel]

No they didn't. The charity never received anything from sisu. The £1m was a paper figure in the sbs&l accounts only

He’s got that from Gilbert’s book

 

[oldskyblue58]

Then Gilbert got it wrong too.

Sisu because of the off balance sheet way things were done put in a valuation of £1m the other side of which was an increase in the debt to sisu investors. The £1m was subsequently written down as a loss to the club. The amount owed to sisu investors was not

There is no corresponding value or profit in the charity financial statements

Manufactured.

 

[Grendel]

Then Gilbert got it wrong too.

Sisu because of the off balance sheet way things put in a valuation of £1m the other side of which was an increase in the debt to sisu investors. The £1m was subsequently written down as a loss to the club.

Manufactured

It was a quote from a highly reliable source to justify a part of the book to show when they came they were committed to at some point own the stadium

It came from the evidence provided by Geoffrey Robinson

Oddly Simon never thought to ask PWKH who is quoted in the same chapter “have you still got the £1 million”

 

[chiefdave]

I agree the stadium wasnt their plan A that was a quick return to the Premier League.

Once that was messed up alternatives to recoup their money and the real mess of stratergies started.

IMO when Ranson realised the came was up and tried to resign, around the time he had to sell Dann and Fox, SISU should have got out. At that point there was still something to sell and while they might not have got everything back they could have got out without too much damage.

No idea why they decided to keep going and bring Orange Ken in. The way he went about cutting everything makes you wonder if he came in just to balance the books ahead of a sale without anyone considering that those cuts would lead to relegation.

 

[Grendel]

So Neil now has the classic line that I am intimate with Sisu

 

[bawtryneal]

You guys still at it !!
Ive just arrived in Bolton
There is a game on today, you know
PUSB

 

[skyblueinBaku]

So Neil now has the classic line that I am intimate with Sisu

"Intimate" as in the old News of the World euphemism for sex?

 

[oldskyblue58]

Geoffrey Robinson wasnt even involved when the £1m was created, 2008 sbs&l group accounts. It was written down in 2010 sbs&l accounts. How would he know.

Never been tempted to read Gilbert's book.

 

[Grendel]

Geoffrey Robinson wasnt even involved when the £1m was created, 2008 sbs&l group accounts. It was written down in 2010 sbs&l accounts. How would he know.

Never been tempted to read Gilbert's book.

Probably just as well! Have you heard any suggestion the council held meetings to sell their share in ACL at a knockdown price? News to me.

 

[Grendel]

"Intimate" as in the old News of the World euphemism for sex?

It’s gone from sisu to Joy now so yes it’s sex

 

[skyblueinBaku]

It’s gone from sisu to Joy now so yes it’s sex

Fill your boots, G!

 

[Grendel]

You guys still at it !!
Ive just arrived in Bolton
There is a game on today, you know
PUSB

Yes I’m slouched in my arm chair with the radio and several cans of beer - think Neil’s already had a barrel to be fair he’s off on it

 

[oldskyblue58]

Not that I remember but it would have been around the time that the heads of terms was agreed on the "road map" I assume.

I think the intention might have been expressed for some time in the future (from December 2012) but nothing more than that if it was

 

[bawtryneal]

Yes I’m slouched in my arm chair with the radio and several cans of beer - think Neil’s already had a barrel to be fair he’s off on it

Enjoy the game and the beer. Lots of Skyblue here.
Don't have Twitter. What does your mate Neil have to say for himself today?