The new 433 or a switch to 442/4231 ? (4 Viewers)

[steve82]

Seen a few comments on various threads that many don’t seem to convinced with the 433 formation and would like to see a switch back to the 4231 we ended the season with or the traditional 442 embedded into us at birth also a adaptation of previously utilised by MR

Personally I’d like us to persist with this new 433 formation a little longer and coach the ideas and methods into individuals. I think we’ve the players to come back into the side that could enhance it and make it work better than we’re seeing currently if the movement and tempo, positional play is better

It’s too soon surely to change system that you’ve started the summer developing and on paper looks very strong and good enough to take on most sides if everyone’s fit for selection and has options to alter personnel as desired

--------------Marosi-------------
Dabo--McFadzean--Hyam--Mason
-----Allen---Kelly---Shipley------
---Jobello--Godden--Hiwula----

Obviously Kastaneer is also a opinion on the left instead of Hiwula that we’re yet to see play in L1. This can also play out in a 451/442/343 in transitions in games to break sides down so it’s versatile.

The only other formation i can see us reverting to at this point is the 442 that MR has utilised a few times last year which again on paper looks strong when Kastaneer is fit for selection or its only Shipley really for the left wing.

--------------Marosi-------------
Dabo--McFadzean--Hyam--Mason
Jobello---Kelly---Allen--Kastaneer
--------Godden--Hiwula-------

I think we can field strong sides in both formations dependant on opposition, playing surface... etc . However the 4231 I don’t particularly think we’ve the right player to play the 10 effectively and leaves us creatively lacking more so. I’ve seen Kastaneer mentioned as a possibility but were yet to see some indication that’s a option ourselves.

--------------Marosi-------------
Dabo--McFadzean--Hyam--Mason
--------Kelly-----Allen-------
Jobello-----**???**----Hiwula
-----------Godden-------------

What’s the thoughts on our strongest set up?


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[Skyblueweeman]

I think the main thing is that none of us are professional football managers and aren't paid to choose a formation based on what we see day in day out of our players in training.

Not knocking your thread - discussion is always good but it makes me laugh when Nigel the plumber from Leamington Spa thinks a 4-3-3 defo won't work for us as our players aren't suited to it.

Obviously knows more than MR etc etc etc.

 

[Skyblueweeman]

That being said (!), I've always been fans of more traditional set ups - 4-4-2 and 4-3-3 being the preferences. Don't know enough about the players to know which one works best for us though.

 

[SkyBlueDom26]

4231-
--------------Marosi-------------
Dabo--McFadzean--Hyam--Mason
--------Kelly-----Allen-------
Jobello-----Jones/Hiwula----Kastaneer
-----------Godden-------------

Best formation/starting 11

 

[steve82]

I think the main thing is that none of us are professional football managers and aren't paid to choose a formation based on what we see day in day out of our players in training.

Not knocking your thread - discussion is always good but it makes me laugh when Nigel the plumber from Leamington Spa thinks a 4-3-3 defo won't work for us as our players aren't suited to it.

Obviously knows more than MR etc etc etc.

Agree and completely respect your point, just because your tactics worked against The Red Lion on a Sunday morning don’t make you Pep... however come 3pm or 5pm for that on a Saturday many hold their A licence on here.

Just interested in why the negativity towards the 433 we’ve seen so far and put it up for discussion and thoughts of others.


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[CCFC88]

I don't want a change just yet in the league, happy to roll with MR until he see the need to change it. I wouldn't be against seeing a 442 tomorrow night though to see if Biamou/Godden could have a similar connection to Biamou/McNulty.

Jobello played a few wicked balls into the box on Saturday which could have lent itself to having more men in the box

 

[Winny the Bish]

4231-
--------------Marosi-------------
Dabo--McFadzean--Hyam--Mason
--------Kelly-----Allen-------
Jobello-----Jones/Hiwula----Kastaneer
-----------Godden-------------

Best formation/starting 11

Hiwula needs 3 touches to control the ball. No way can he play in the 10.

 

[lord_garrincha]

Judging from the Southend game, there was a disconnect between the 3 in midfield and the 3 up top. This gave the impression that Baka and the wingers were isolated (the other theory is that the front 3 are not up to speed yet).

Whilst Allen is the real deal, he will not solve this as, from watching him in pre season, he is a deep lying mid who will burst forward and not link midfield with attack.

To conclude, I haven't a clue what formation will suit us attacking wise!

 

[Esoterica]

There were a few issues for me with the 4-3-3 on Saturday:

1. First was that the two wide forwards were providing too much width, they were virtually on the touch line and then cutting inside. As a result there was little synergy with Baka and without a number 10 in there like you would have in a 4-2-3-1, there was no fluency in the transition from midfield to attack and it became very predictable - ball would go wide each time and fullbacks would overlap into what was a very tight space due to the wide forwards starting positions.
2. In midfield, Westbrooke especially I thought was not brave or incisive enough with his passing, taking half a second too long on the ball each time and then picking an easy option. Partly his fault and partly lack of options ahead of him. Accurate middle distance passing into feet is not something that Shipley really has in his locker either.
   
3. Bakayoko didn't do enough off the ball to make himself available or occupy the centre backs. Admittedly don't always get the best overview of the whole pitch on iFollow but you can't have 2 of a front 3 drift in and out of games as often as he and Hiwula does.
4. With absolutely no threat or hold up play through the middle we didn't get Shipley making enough of the type of runs beyond the striker (see the disallowed goal), which is his best attribute for me.
   
   I also don't think having a 4-2-3-1 as plan B is enough variation from a 4-3-3. Saturday was crying out for 2 up top at half time.

 

[cc84cov]

No chance Robins will change the system anytime soon we’ve done all pre season in it with Allen back in midfield & Godden up front it can work the front 3 working as a unit in & out possession is crucial.Some times when it’s not working we need a plan B Saturday he should of put Shipley left Max up front with Godden playing Max left wing showed a poor management from Robins.

 

[steve82]

Personally Saturday I’d of looked towards a change of formation when Godden came on of Godden for Bakayoko, and put Shipley left wing and Hiwula and Godden as a pair and seen how that faired with Jobello as a right winger.

I’d of also been tempted to play Sam McCallum on the left wing as time went on and utilised his pace/long throw ability asking questions of Bolton getting the ball and big lads in the box.


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[Mucca Mad Boys]

We started slow last season too, I have faith that Robins knows what he’s doing

 

[cc84cov]

I wonder if robins thinks between Hiwula & Godden they scored 30 goals last year in league 1 why not try them up front together both have great movement ?

 

[Evo1883]

433 is a system that demands an awful lot from the midfield, and with allen missing who is possibly the biggest engine in the squad its hard to work out yet Wether it suits us or not

 

[Tomh111]

Have you ever read inverting the pyramid?

Great book, but it explains how latterly football is so fluid that defining teams in normal ways is no longer applicable - as so much is dependent on how players are asked to play within that.

People are insistent that we are playing 433 but it could easily be defined as 451or 41221.

My point is that we need to focus more on style of play rather than where we try and label positions.

I think our problems are that the full backs arent pushing high enough up the pitch in attack and with Allen out we are lacking in central creativity.

This isn't a problem with the system but the way we are playing within it. There is no outlet when we transition from defence to attack so punt long and in attack we get congested, with nobody who has the flair or creativity to make things happen.

I actually like playing with 5 midfielders rather than 4 as it allows us to dominate the midfield and control possession. The problem comes like I said above, in that we have nobody who can utilise that possession.

I would be banging on premiership clubs doors for a creative central player and I think that would solve a lot of problems.

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[Winny the Bish]

The 4-3-3 worked last year because Bright's starting position was much higher up the pitch than Shipley's is now. He was naturally attacking and further forward, almost playing off the striker.

Completely agree about the wide players being too far wide. They need to be in line with the edge of the area, closer to the middle so they can link up with the striker. Man City are so good at 4-3-3 because their wingers are always close enough to the striker to play 1-2s and get in behind.

We desperately need a creative midfielder who wants to attack to take Bright's role. A new signing is needed badly.

 

[Nick]

The 4-3-3 worked last year because Bright's starting position was much higher up the pitch than Shipley's is now. He was naturally attacking and further forward, almost playing off the striker.

Completely agree about the wide players being too far wide. They need to be in line with the edge of the area, closer to the middle so they can link up with the striker. Man City are so good at 4-3-3 because their wingers are always close enough to the striker to play 1-2s and get in behind.

We desperately need a creative midfielder who wants to attack to take Bright's role. A new signing is needed badly.

Thats because Bright played as a number 10 just behind the striker.

 

[Winny the Bish]

Thats because Bright played as a number 10 just behind the striker.

I would've called this our formation last year. Kelly was very much the lone holding midfielder at the base with Bayliss to the right and Bright to the left but pushed further on.

 

[fatso]

I'd just be happy to see our full first team fit and starting.
And if we can stop giving the ball away when not under any pressure, I'd be delighted.
Formations would then be unimportant.

 

[cooperskyblue]

The 433 formation isn't an issue, the issue with playing one up front in a central position, is that it's important that we have players near them, whether that being in the number 10 position or our wingers/inside forwards coming narrow.

The problem I witnessed in the last half hour against Southend was, niether Hiwula or Jobello or one of the midfield 3 were anywhere near Bakayoko when the ball was played to him, meaning he was completely isolated.

It'll be exactly the same for Godden if we don't have atleast 1 of the midfield 3 getting much higher up the pitch to support. Allen strikes me as the ideal player to do that.

 

[Liquid Gold]

The wide two need to be playing as inside forwards not wingers, Jobello did a good job of this on Saturday and Hiwula should fit perfectly in the role, but they're drifting to the space not taken up by a winger and leaving the striker isolated. Just need some more positional instruction from MR. Also needs a midfielder to break the lines and get forward, was expecting this to be Bayliss but hoping Allen is the player for this. Overall I'm happy we're playing something that should be progressive, it's been much better than all our failed attempts to go with 5 at the back where nobody looked like they knew what they were doing. On Saturday and against other teams willing to sit back I'm hoping it turns into a 4123 with the fullbacks bombing on and Kelly helping the centre backs.

 

[ccfcway]

I think the main thing is that none of us are professional football managers and aren't paid to choose a formation based on what we see day in day out of our players in training.

Not knocking your thread - discussion is always good but it makes me laugh when Nigel the plumber from Leamington Spa thinks a 4-3-3 defo won't work for us as our players aren't suited to it.

Obviously knows more than MR etc etc etc.

You wonder if MR takes his dog for a walk, walks past a house being renovated and thinks “why the plumber putting in copper pipes, surely a chlorinated poly-vinyl chloride pipe would be both cheaper and more effective.

 

[robbiekeane]

You wonder if MR takes his dog for a walk, walks past a house being renovated and thinks “why the plumber putting in copper pipes, surely a chlorinated poly-vinyl chloride pipe would be both cheaper and more effective.

He probably would if he was paying to use the house's heating

 

[Tomh111]

You wonder if MR takes his dog for a walk, walks past a house being renovated and thinks “why the plumber putting in copper pipes, surely a chlorinated poly-vinyl chloride pipe would be both cheaper and more effective.

No but I imagine he has a view on how the government best use its resources.... which is a far better analogy.

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[fernandopartridge]

Have you ever read inverting the pyramid?

Great book, but it explains how latterly football is so fluid that defining teams in normal ways is no longer applicable - as so much is dependent on how players are asked to play within that.

People are insistent that we are playing 433 but it could easily be defined as 451or 41221.

My point is that we need to focus more on style of play rather than where we try and label positions.

I think our problems are that the full backs arent pushing high enough up the pitch in attack and with Allen out we are lacking in central creativity.

This isn't a problem with the system but the way we are playing within it. There is no outlet when we transition from defence to attack so punt long and in attack we get congested, with nobody who has the flair or creativity to make things happen.

I actually like playing with 5 midfielders rather than 4 as it allows us to dominate the midfield and control possession. The problem comes like I said above, in that we have nobody who can utilise that possession.

I would be banging on premiership clubs doors for a creative central player and I think that would solve a lot of problems.

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Good post, I've said many times that everybody seems to look at football through the prism of 4-4-2 and sees all roles on the pitch as a variation of positions in that

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[ccfcway]

No but I imagine he has a view on how the government best use its resources.... which is a far better analogy.

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Maybe. I was just commentating on weemans post. Also, he should have a say on government use as he gets a vote on influencing it, if only text a sub came in hey !

 

[shmmeee]

No but I imagine he has a view on how the government best use its resources.... which is a far better analogy.

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As in most people haven’t a fucking clue what they’re on about there either?