AStonesThrow
Well-Known Member
Which in turn is discrimination and singling people out. I completely get your sentiment but it could be argued that'd make you as bad as them
Homophobic chanting (9 Viewers)
- Thread starter Skybluefaz
- Start date
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
AStonesThrow
Well-Known Member
No that's completely not the point I was making. It's just a case of fight fire with fire. As I said, I get the sentiment behind it
Evo1883
Well-Known Member
Might hurt their feelings though, that's all that matters these days lol
AStonesThrow
Well-Known Member
After all, it is 2019
The Great Eastern
Well-Known Member
A few years ago at the Ricoh, firstly Norwich had a fan in a pink polo shirt then Sheff. Utd had the same. In both cases, they came in for the rather boring and homophobic chants from block 14. However, I'd swear in both cases, the pink clad fans wore the shirts deliberately, knowing they were going to be centre of attention.
SkyblueBazza
Well-Known Member
How about "Boring boring bigots"?
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Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
SkyblueBazza
Well-Known Member
AStonesThrow
Well-Known Member
I know this is tongue in cheek, but aimed at this whole thread, who really cares. Gay/straight, man/woman, Caucasian/Asian, pink purple or bloody violet, we're all human, all people with thoughts, opinions and emotions.
Some people use "pink is gay" as light hearted banter with no intent to hurt or offend anyone. Personally, I wouldn't, due to the potential to upset or offend. Others think it's highly homophobic and criticise those that do. We all have varying opinions and make our own choices; it's what makes us human.
Really, we should only stand against those that intend malice and hurt by using racial/homophobic slurs. Then we should stand up against it. But if someone makes a tongue in cheek comment at a football game which we dont agree with or are offended by, either ignore it and be glad that's not you, or politely tell said person you dont like it. In that context it's a difference of opinion.
Like thinking Shipley is better than Bayliss
fellatio_Martinez
Well-Known Member
Clearly tongue in cheek Barry.
Terry_dactyl
Well-Known Member
Is it being offended because people say they’re offended?
Skybluefaz
Well-Known Member
My feelings weren't hurt I'm not offended, I just think it's a bit of a dick move, could discourage LGBT fans from attending, and it gives us as a collective fan base a bit of a bad rep.
Evo1883
Well-Known Member
The only people moaning about yesterday are on here...
Haven't seen it mentioned anywhere else... Why... Because nobody cares
mrtrench
Well-Known Member
It's a difficult one this - and by this, I mean bullying.
Personally, I don't get why certain types of bullying seem to get super-powers over other types. I imagine it's because generally, people aren't very bright (average IQ is 100!). So they find it easier to understand the micro specific stuff (racism; homophobia) rather than the macro: the underlying bad, which is some people bullying other people based upon some random prejudice.
I abhor all bullying equally: racism; homophobia; Islamophobia; taking the piss out of the guy with the gammy eye or a hair lip scar... And that's the point. It doesn't matter what attribute one is using as an excuse to bully. If it's bullying (more to follow) then it really doesn't matter what is being used as an excuse. So the question is rather, 'what is bullying?'
I feel like I need more time to consider this question. It's certainly one I shouldn't attempt after a bottle of cava. But, I'll take the risk. I think that aggression is the difference between piss-taking and bullying. But I've just shifted the difficult definition from 'bullying' to 'aggression'. Because 'aggression' can be subtle. One can deny someone a job because he is bald or trans and that is aggression - even if it's all done with a grin fuck ( a phrase an ex-boss of mine used: to grin at someone and mouth positive platitudes whilst fucking them career-wise).
Onto my second bottle - logic is going to deteriorate...
I'm going to split it into two parts now.
1. No economic impact
2. Economic impact
1. No Economic Impact. This is about making someone feel bad without actually impacting their life chances. It goes all the way from a snide comment to beating someone up without a hospital visit. I think that this has to be (as, I believe the internationally accepted definition of antisemitism is) all about the perception of the victim. A few chants in the terraces, even if intended in good-humour, are only bullying if the recipient feels abused. But now we open Pandora's Box, because the role of victim can be played disingenuously. And we have a number of people nowadays who have no humour and are perma-offended. Hard isn't it?
2. Economic Impact. So now we're talking about something that really impacts someone's life: such as being gay means they earn £200k less over their career, so they live in a worse flat; they have less expensive holidays etc.).
This is also hard - hard to prove or define I mean. There's a lot of publicity about the gender pay-gap - but again those bloody infuriating average 100 IQ people focus on the specific and not the macro. There most certainly is a gender pay-gap but it's far smaller when considering pay for specific roles - the implication being that women generally may choose professions which pay less well. And then we're into the whole free-market question which I'm assigning ultra vires for this post.
But is there also a race pay-gap? Personally, when hiring I always gave the benefit of doubt to the most 'disadvantaged' person I had interviewed... which once led me to hire a very short Indian lady over an average height Indian man. But there probably is such a prejudice (I don't study social sciences so I don't have stats to hand - but then again I value so lowly the intellect of social scientists that I may not even trust their findings).
I think there are other pay-gaps that may be even more dramatic. Here's one (as a man below 5' 7" in height). There is definitely a pay gap related to height. But then, looking back (and I was frustrated at the time) - how much of the height thing actually resulted in a superior gravitas or confidence or ability to inspire? I don't know.
I am very aware that I've written a lot of words and probably nothing of value. And if you want to respond that I'm just a wanker, I'll get it. If I must boil it down to a few thoughts:
- There is a very fine line between 'bantz' / humour and bullying. And that line is defined by the perception of the victim.
- Offence by the victim does not prove intent by the initiator.
- Economic bullying is more serious but much harder to define or prove.
And finally, my own philosophy for life: just be nice to other people. Being nice may include piss-taking if you feel they are getting it as a joke and are giving it back. But it certainly doesn't include making someone else feel bad. That's horrible.
Personally, I don't get why certain types of bullying seem to get super-powers over other types. I imagine it's because generally, people aren't very bright (average IQ is 100!). So they find it easier to understand the micro specific stuff (racism; homophobia) rather than the macro: the underlying bad, which is some people bullying other people based upon some random prejudice.
I abhor all bullying equally: racism; homophobia; Islamophobia; taking the piss out of the guy with the gammy eye or a hair lip scar... And that's the point. It doesn't matter what attribute one is using as an excuse to bully. If it's bullying (more to follow) then it really doesn't matter what is being used as an excuse. So the question is rather, 'what is bullying?'
I feel like I need more time to consider this question. It's certainly one I shouldn't attempt after a bottle of cava. But, I'll take the risk. I think that aggression is the difference between piss-taking and bullying. But I've just shifted the difficult definition from 'bullying' to 'aggression'. Because 'aggression' can be subtle. One can deny someone a job because he is bald or trans and that is aggression - even if it's all done with a grin fuck ( a phrase an ex-boss of mine used: to grin at someone and mouth positive platitudes whilst fucking them career-wise).
Onto my second bottle - logic is going to deteriorate...
I'm going to split it into two parts now.
1. No economic impact
2. Economic impact
1. No Economic Impact. This is about making someone feel bad without actually impacting their life chances. It goes all the way from a snide comment to beating someone up without a hospital visit. I think that this has to be (as, I believe the internationally accepted definition of antisemitism is) all about the perception of the victim. A few chants in the terraces, even if intended in good-humour, are only bullying if the recipient feels abused. But now we open Pandora's Box, because the role of victim can be played disingenuously. And we have a number of people nowadays who have no humour and are perma-offended. Hard isn't it?
2. Economic Impact. So now we're talking about something that really impacts someone's life: such as being gay means they earn £200k less over their career, so they live in a worse flat; they have less expensive holidays etc.).
This is also hard - hard to prove or define I mean. There's a lot of publicity about the gender pay-gap - but again those bloody infuriating average 100 IQ people focus on the specific and not the macro. There most certainly is a gender pay-gap but it's far smaller when considering pay for specific roles - the implication being that women generally may choose professions which pay less well. And then we're into the whole free-market question which I'm assigning ultra vires for this post.
But is there also a race pay-gap? Personally, when hiring I always gave the benefit of doubt to the most 'disadvantaged' person I had interviewed... which once led me to hire a very short Indian lady over an average height Indian man. But there probably is such a prejudice (I don't study social sciences so I don't have stats to hand - but then again I value so lowly the intellect of social scientists that I may not even trust their findings).
I think there are other pay-gaps that may be even more dramatic. Here's one (as a man below 5' 7" in height). There is definitely a pay gap related to height. But then, looking back (and I was frustrated at the time) - how much of the height thing actually resulted in a superior gravitas or confidence or ability to inspire? I don't know.
I am very aware that I've written a lot of words and probably nothing of value. And if you want to respond that I'm just a wanker, I'll get it. If I must boil it down to a few thoughts:
- There is a very fine line between 'bantz' / humour and bullying. And that line is defined by the perception of the victim.
- Offence by the victim does not prove intent by the initiator.
- Economic bullying is more serious but much harder to define or prove.
And finally, my own philosophy for life: just be nice to other people. Being nice may include piss-taking if you feel they are getting it as a joke and are giving it back. But it certainly doesn't include making someone else feel bad. That's horrible.
DannyThomas_1981
Well-Known Member
I really don't think any of the lads chanting this intended to cause any offence - but I can see both arguments.
It's still the case that what goes on in football grounds would not be tolerated in normal situations. Screaming foul mouthed and personal abuse at players and officials - I don't see this kind of thing outside of football so much. If people behaved like that in my local they'd be banned quickly.
From my perspective if I'm taking my young nephews to the game I cringe when the drunk bloke behind me is loudly calling the referee a 'f....g c...t' every couple of minutes. That honestly makes me more uncomfortable than some non-threatening banter aimed at another fan - but again I can see why there are real objections to the chanting yesterday.
I guess it's some indication of progress that we are having this kind of debate at all - growing up with open racism at matches in the early 80s and even some of the things I heard into the late 90s wasn't pleasant.
I'm also more than happy shouting personal abuse at Steve Evans as he 100% deserves it - and I would do the same if I met that fat piece of shit in the street to be honest. I guess that makes me a complete hypocrite!
It's still the case that what goes on in football grounds would not be tolerated in normal situations. Screaming foul mouthed and personal abuse at players and officials - I don't see this kind of thing outside of football so much. If people behaved like that in my local they'd be banned quickly.
From my perspective if I'm taking my young nephews to the game I cringe when the drunk bloke behind me is loudly calling the referee a 'f....g c...t' every couple of minutes. That honestly makes me more uncomfortable than some non-threatening banter aimed at another fan - but again I can see why there are real objections to the chanting yesterday.
I guess it's some indication of progress that we are having this kind of debate at all - growing up with open racism at matches in the early 80s and even some of the things I heard into the late 90s wasn't pleasant.
I'm also more than happy shouting personal abuse at Steve Evans as he 100% deserves it - and I would do the same if I met that fat piece of shit in the street to be honest. I guess that makes me a complete hypocrite!
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Out of interest do you think this joke is offensive?
“I just keep shouting out BROCCOLI CAULIFLOWER”
“I’ve got florets”
oscillatewildly
Well-Known Member
Is it/Isn't it? (Homophobic) There's room for debate on this one (as is evident.) I wasn't there y'day but was at Forest Green a couple of season's back when their GK came in for similar questioning. I can honestly say my heart sank with disappointment on that occasion.
There's also the angle of unoriginality as far as a chant is concerned. Come on lads, (and lasses) someone must have caught a glimpse of his footwear? And did it match his top?
We need to up our game in the witty song department.
There's also the angle of unoriginality as far as a chant is concerned. Come on lads, (and lasses) someone must have caught a glimpse of his footwear? And did it match his top?
We need to up our game in the witty song department.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
I don't personally but I used to work with someone with tourettes and she most certainly would have done.
DannyThomas_1981
Well-Known Member
"And finally, my own philosophy for life: just be nice to other people. Being nice may include piss-taking if you feel they are getting it as a joke and are giving it back. But it certainly doesn't include making someone else feel bad. That's horrible.[/QUOTE]"
Excellent post trench. Except of course if it's Steve Evans. He's a disgraceful bullying piece of shit to everyone so happy to chant 'fat bastard' at him for 90 minutes in pay back.
Excellent post trench. Except of course if it's Steve Evans. He's a disgraceful bullying piece of shit to everyone so happy to chant 'fat bastard' at him for 90 minutes in pay back.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
So if one person is offended no humour can be allowed can it?
Interestingly this was a joke at the Edinburgh festival considered the funniest. Many were offended at complained but oddly those with the condition did generally not object. So many people take indignation on behalf of others.
Likewise should Gary Lineker have been suspended after several complaints to the BBC after a bald joke mocking Alan Shearer ?
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
The average IQ will always be 100. That’s how the IQ system works.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
Where is the joke in using 'gayboy' as a taunt? It's like being back in the 1980s.
mrtrench
Well-Known Member
No shit, Sherlock.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Not the point really is it and if the person in the pink is not gay it’s not a problem to him
I assume if someone shouts bald bastard at a game is that as bad do you think?
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
There are going to be a significant number of gay players within the game that feel that there is something preventing them from openly living their lives. They perceive that the reaction to their coming would make them a target of abuse and ridicule and is therefore it's preventing them from doing so. The game is way behind other sports in this regard and doesn't look like changing any time soon.
DannyThomas_1981
Well-Known Member
I'm on your side on this Faz. Everyone should feel welcome at our games. But in terms of all the problems we have - the non-attendance of the possible legions of Cov LGBT fans just waiting to show up at our games is probably a fairly long way down the list.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
Apart from Stephen Ireland, how many footballers have hid their bald head out of shame?
Skybluefaz
Well-Known Member
Of course. That wasn't the point.
mrtrench
Well-Known Member
Each person perceives their existence as an individual. We are not subsets of some Identity-Politik. Look at the macro - not the micro; I am not a number. Having written that - absolutely I condemn any prejudice against homosexuality.
What is wrong here is bullying. If you constantly chase the trend you'll be always fighting individual causes (which of course is by design from Seumas Milne and his political agenda to divide and conquer). IMO, the people driving this micro-agenda are Orwellian-quality frightening.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
The point is someone in the crowd or on the pitch could have had counselling due to the constant bullying they’ve had and this could be devastating could it not?