Ponticelli (6 Viewers)

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

I can only speak for myself but I certainly don't not want him to do well. I support ccfc and he is our player. If he does well he becomes a more valuable asset for the club. Be that in the 1st team or in the transfer market.
To address some of your points: him being on loan maybe frees up funds to spend elsewhere. It also gives him the opportunity to show his worth. Sadly he appears not to be taking those and we can't force a manager to play him unless we stipulate that from the outset. All players are improving in the u23 but some have higher ceilings of ability than others. How low does he have to go to get the exposure and if so would it then prove anything to a manager of a team that will hopefully be challenging at the business end of L1?

Finally not sure I see the Harry Kane comparison, he had a dry spell but he was a known quantity. Ponti is still a ?? and needs to be a consistent scorer of goals soon.

When was the last time he was prolific in front of the goal at any level? There is a saying that I think applies. It's not where you have been it's where your at.

For JP that's the bench in a fairly average team promoted from L2.

The Harry Kane thing was about how he can be slow to get going at the start of a season. The point was if you judged Harry Kane most season after the first half dozen games you'd have dropped him because he hadn't scored and missed some gilt edged chances. One he's up to speed though.....

The last time JP was prolific was the last time he was fit. This season is less than a month old and he's featured in 2 games. He was injured for the whole of last season for all intents and purposes. Year before that he scored a goal a game in the U23 as a first year pro and year before that hit over 30 in his academy year. That was more than Sambou managed in his final year and he's now playing Eredivise. It's also way more than George Thomas managed (who went through the academy as a striker) and players like Callum Wilson (or anyone else I can remember). He played in one U23 pre-season friendly and scored a hat trick (and I don't think he played the entire game) although it wasn't the highest standard of opponent.

I think Ponticelli suffers from having been talked about for so long and people forget he hasn't yet turned 21. Meanwhile when Wilson broke through he'd largely gone under the radar so felt like a very young player, but it was his fourth year under contract. Ponticelli is currently just starting his third and spent his second year injured.

Callum Wilson didn't break into the first team until he was 22. At the same age Ponticelli is now he'd played 2 first team games for us and not scored. He'd played 20 games at Conference level and scored 2. In the equivalent season to this one for Ponti, he played 11 times for us in L1 and scored 1. I imagine most were only a few minutes here and there though.

Ponti scored 6 goals in 26 games (most as a sub with limited time on the pitch) at 18/19 in L2.

I agree he needs to be able to prove himself and he's been unlucky in his chances to do so. When he started the odd cup game at 18 he wasn't exactly setting the place on fire but he was a few months into becoming a professional and playing as a lone striker. Even then he was putting himself about and getting into scoring positions. He's not the tallest or the quickest so he's going to rely on getting into good positions and putting the ball in the net. From what I've seen of him he can do that, and is willing to work and chase things when he has been put on, even if he does need to learn to do it in a more disciplined manner. That's why I think he'd do well to be watching and learning from Godden.

And speaking of Godden at the same age as Ponti he'd played 8 games for a league team and not scored (albeit at Champ and L1 level, but even by the age of 23 he was only featuring in 5 games for a league 2 team and still had yet to score a league goal). He'd been on loan to the conference twice played 13 games and scored 3 goals. So that's the same strike rate as Ponti but a league lower (half the number of appearances but probably more minutes on the pitch in those games).

To have people on here suggest we should just get rid of him at this stage is just incredibly short-sighted and people need to remember he's only 20. He may not make it but he's yet to be given the chance to show it.

 

---

[ccfc1234]

The Harry Kane thing was about how he can be slow to get going at the start of a season. The point was if you judged Harry Kane most season after the first half dozen games you'd have dropped him because he hadn't scored and missed some gilt edged chances. One he's up to speed though.....

The last time JP was prolific was the last time he was fit. This season is less than a month old and he's featured in 2 games. He was injured for the whole of last season for all intents and purposes. Year before that he scored a goal a game in the U23 as a first year pro and year before that hit over 30 in his academy year. That was more than Sambou managed in his final year and he's now playing Eredivise. It's also way more than George Thomas managed (who went through the academy as a striker) and players like Callum Wilson (or anyone else I can remember). He played in one U23 pre-season friendly and scored a hat trick (and I don't think he played the entire game) although it wasn't the highest standard of opponent.

I think Ponticelli suffers from having been talked about for so long and people forget he hasn't yet turned 21. Meanwhile when Wilson broke through he'd largely gone under the radar so felt like a very young player, but it was his fourth year under contract. Ponticelli is currently just starting his third and spent his second year injured.

Callum Wilson didn't break into the first team until he was 22. At the same age Ponticelli is now he'd played 2 first team games for us and not scored. He'd played 20 games at Conference level and scored 2. In the equivalent season to this one for Ponti, he played 11 times for us in L1 and scored 1. I imagine most were only a few minutes here and there though.

Ponti scored 6 goals in 26 games (most as a sub with limited time on the pitch) at 18/19 in L2.

I agree he needs to be able to prove himself and he's been unlucky in his chances to do so. When he started the odd cup game at 18 he wasn't exactly setting the place on fire but he was a few months into becoming a professional and playing as a lone striker. Even then he was putting himself about and getting into scoring positions. He's not the tallest or the quickest so he's going to rely on getting into good positions and putting the ball in the net. From what I've seen of him he can do that, and is willing to work and chase things when he has been put on, even if he does need to learn to do it in a more disciplined manner. That's why I think he'd do well to be watching and learning from Godden.

And speaking of Godden at the same age as Ponti he'd played 8 games for a league team and not scored (albeit at Champ and L1 level, but even by the age of 23 he was only featuring in 5 games for a league 2 team and still had yet to score a league goal). He'd been on loan to the conference twice played 13 games and scored 3 goals. So that's the same strike rate as Ponti but a league lower (half the number of appearances but probably more minutes on the pitch in those games).

To have people on here suggest we should just get rid of him at this stage is just incredibly short-sighted and people need to remember he's only 20. He may not make it but he's yet to be given the chance to show it.

Your defence of the lad is very well throught out. To the point you have me thinking your a relative or the man himself!! Either way I hope you are right and as I have said before ccfc will be the benficators if he goes and turns himself into a top class finisher. Time will tell and I wish him well.

N.b if you are a relative for me he needs to work on two aspects. Speed over 10 yards and all round energy levels. The former you can hire a sprint coach to help with and most people can improve 15% with the right training. The latter he needs to watch videos of top class forwards who through movement create huge issues for defenders and create space for others. When I have seen him play he looks as slow as the defenders he is up against and also second in the physical duels. That combination will not get him many chances without finding space by upping his speed of thought and feet.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

In Saturday's game, Tranmere were 1-0 down until the 90th minute.
Even so they did not see the need to bring on Ponticelli.
Instead they brought on Hepburn-Murphy, a striker who had never played for them before.
He's on a season-long loan from Villa, so will probably always be preferred to Ponticelli.
Cannot see Ponticelli getting any significant game time for Tranmere.
He should be recalled and sent somewhere else.
We are allowing one of our best ever academy products to waste away!

Hepburn-Murphy had played for them - he played the second half when Ponti got subbed. He got sent-off.

I agree that I don't think Ponti will get enough game time, but I'm surprised they wanted him and even more so that MR decided to let him go there if the intention was to get him as much gametime as possible. Tranmere already had 3 more experienced strikers at the club and in the following couple of weeks added another + RHM on loan who's got similar experience to him.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Your defence of the lad is very well throught out. To the point you have me thinking your a relative or the man himself!! Either way I hope you are right and as I have said before ccfc will be the benficators if he goes and turns himself into a top class finisher. Time will tell and I wish him well.

N.b if you are a relative for me he needs to work on two aspects. Speed over 10 yards and all round energy levels. The former you can hire a sprint coach to help with and most people can improve 15% with the right training. The latter he needs to watch videos of top class forwards who through movement create huge issues for defenders and create space for others. When I have seen him play he looks as slow as the defenders he is up against and also second in the physical duels. That combination will not get him many chances without finding space by upping his speed of thought and feet.

I'm not related to him. I'm not entirely convinced he will make it because as I say he's not a tall striker or a quick one. His sprints do need improving from what I've seen but there are other strikers who aren't the quickest but positionally just always seem to be in the right place in the box at the right time. A few games he's played 5-10 minutes I've seen him have more shots than the person he replaced did in 80+. Similarly he chased things down and tried to force errors from defenders more than the person he replaced did and getting a couple of chances in the process.

His movement and runs in the age groups were decent and finding gaps behind the defence but I admit League football is a different kettle of fish and that space isn't as easy to come by, but the instinct appears to be there. I also think he needs a bit of time to develop physically because although he looks quite stocky he hasn't quite got the knack of how to use his build in men's football - the extra strength of defenders allow them to unbalance him more easily than against players his own age.

The finishing instinct and ability is definitely there.

I certainly see more in him than I do in Baka.

Like all our players I hope he's successful but I'm not saying he should be given more leeway than others. It just seems to me that he's not been given the same opportunities others have been for whatever reason and that some on here say he should be got rid of already despite this I find hard to fathom, especially so when some of them are calling for Bremang and/or Bapaga to be given an opportunity when the evidence for them to be given it is weaker than that for Ponticelli*.

* I'd love for both of these to be a success for us as well

 

[False9]

I'm not related to him. I'm not entirely convinced he will make it because as I say he's not a tall striker or a quick one. His sprints do need improving from what I've seen but there are other strikers who aren't the quickest but positionally just always seem to be in the right place in the box at the right time. A few games he's played 5-10 minutes I've seen him have more shots than the person he replaced did in 80+. Similarly he chased things down and tried to force errors from defenders more than the person he replaced did and getting a couple of chances in the process.

His movement and runs in the age groups were decent and finding gaps behind the defence but I admit League football is a different kettle of fish and that space isn't as easy to come by, but the instinct appears to be there. I also think he needs a bit of time to develop physically because although he looks quite stocky he hasn't quite got the knack of how to use his build in men's football - the extra strength of defenders allow them to unbalance him more easily than against players his own age.

The finishing instinct and ability is definitely there.

I certainly see more in him than I do in Baka.

Like all our players I hope he's successful but I'm not saying he should be given more leeway than others. It just seems to me that he's not been given the same opportunities others have been for whatever reason and that some on here say he should be got rid of already despite this I find hard to fathom, especially so when some of them are calling for Bremang and/or Bapaga to be given an opportunity when the evidence for them to be given it is weaker than that for Ponticelli*.

* I'd love for both of these to be a success for us as well

Should academy coaches be commenting on a forum like this?

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Should academy coaches be commenting on a forum like this?

You'd have to ask one. I'm not one. I just pop up the Higgs every now and then to watch the academy or U23 sides

 

[AStonesThrow]

You'd have to ask one. I'm not one. I just pop up the Higgs every now and then to watch the academy or U23 sides

Its genuinely refreshing to see someone debate their views/opinion with a backbone of knowledge and facts to support it, whilst remaining dignified without turning it into an argument. I totally agree with the points you've made, all it takes is one opportunity or good appearance, or an injury or two in a squad, for a player to make his career.

Let's not forget that prior to his breakthrough appearance, Rashford was about to be loaned to Crewe, and that until a loan spell with us, Jordan Henderson was just another Sunderland academy player. Not saying Ponti is a world beater just yet, but my point is, with the right circumstances, he might come up trumps at this still young age

 

[fatso]

The Harry Kane thing was about how he can be slow to get going at the start of a season. The point was if you judged Harry Kane most season after the first half dozen games you'd have dropped him because he hadn't scored and missed some gilt edged chances. One he's up to speed though.....

The last time JP was prolific was the last time he was fit. This season is less than a month old and he's featured in 2 games. He was injured for the whole of last season for all intents and purposes. Year before that he scored a goal a game in the U23 as a first year pro and year before that hit over 30 in his academy year. That was more than Sambou managed in his final year and he's now playing Eredivise. It's also way more than George Thomas managed (who went through the academy as a striker) and players like Callum Wilson (or anyone else I can remember). He played in one U23 pre-season friendly and scored a hat trick (and I don't think he played the entire game) although it wasn't the highest standard of opponent.

I think Ponticelli suffers from having been talked about for so long and people forget he hasn't yet turned 21. Meanwhile when Wilson broke through he'd largely gone under the radar so felt like a very young player, but it was his fourth year under contract. Ponticelli is currently just starting his third and spent his second year injured.

Callum Wilson didn't break into the first team until he was 22. At the same age Ponticelli is now he'd played 2 first team games for us and not scored. He'd played 20 games at Conference level and scored 2. In the equivalent season to this one for Ponti, he played 11 times for us in L1 and scored 1. I imagine most were only a few minutes here and there though.

Ponti scored 6 goals in 26 games (most as a sub with limited time on the pitch) at 18/19 in L2.

I agree he needs to be able to prove himself and he's been unlucky in his chances to do so. When he started the odd cup game at 18 he wasn't exactly setting the place on fire but he was a few months into becoming a professional and playing as a lone striker. Even then he was putting himself about and getting into scoring positions. He's not the tallest or the quickest so he's going to rely on getting into good positions and putting the ball in the net. From what I've seen of him he can do that, and is willing to work and chase things when he has been put on, even if he does need to learn to do it in a more disciplined manner. That's why I think he'd do well to be watching and learning from Godden.

And speaking of Godden at the same age as Ponti he'd played 8 games for a league team and not scored (albeit at Champ and L1 level, but even by the age of 23 he was only featuring in 5 games for a league 2 team and still had yet to score a league goal). He'd been on loan to the conference twice played 13 games and scored 3 goals. So that's the same strike rate as Ponti but a league lower (half the number of appearances but probably more minutes on the pitch in those games).

To have people on here suggest we should just get rid of him at this stage is just incredibly short-sighted and people need to remember he's only 20. He may not make it but he's yet to be given the chance to show it.

Great post.

 

[HuckerbyDublinWhelan]

Its genuinely refreshing to see someone debate their views/opinion with a backbone of knowledge and facts to support it, whilst remaining dignified without turning it into an argument. I totally agree with the points you've made, all it takes is one opportunity or good appearance, or an injury or two in a squad, for a player to make his career.

Let's not forget that prior to his breakthrough appearance, Rashford was about to be loaned to Crewe, and that until a loan spell with us, Jordan Henderson was just another Sunderland academy player. Not saying Ponti is a world beater just yet, but my point is, with the right circumstances, he might come up trumps at this still young age

Difference was Rashford was already highly rated by those outside United, and was trying to oust Rooney.

Henderson was on the cusp of the Sunderland team, and needed game time.

Ponticelli reminds me of Craig Reid, scores for fun in the U23s but looks out of his depth in league football. I want him to do well, but Tranmere was a bit of an acid test.

Now it’s not just Robins that doesn’t think he’s ready for league one, Tranmere obviously don’t either

 

[shelby76]

Should academy coaches be commenting on a forum like this?

The lads a good player and he is being squeezed out tbh!

 

[cc84cov]

I would rather Ponti on our bench over Baka anyway...

 

[shelby76]

I would rather Ponti on our bench over Baka anyway...

Sisu decides who stays and who goes, it's a buisness, and has got nothing to do with ponti does on the pitch if he had been at the academy since u8 he would be in the team I believe.

 

[Liquid Gold]

In Saturday's game, Tranmere were 1-0 down until the 90th minute.
Even so they did not see the need to bring on Ponticelli.
Instead they brought on Hepburn-Murphy, a striker who had never played for them before.
He's on a season-long loan from Villa, so will probably always be preferred to Ponticelli.
Cannot see Ponticelli getting any significant game time for Tranmere.
He should be recalled and sent somewhere else.
We are allowing one of our best ever academy products to waste away!

Lolz

 

[Liquid Gold]

Sisu decides who stays and who goes, it's a buisness, and has got nothing to do with ponti does on the pitch if he had been at the academy since u8 he would be in the team I believe.

Sisu wouldn't even know the names of the players. Robins decides who stays and goes.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Sisu decides who stays and who goes, it's a buisness, and has got nothing to do with ponti does on the pitch if he had been at the academy since u8 he would be in the team I believe.

I disagree on both points.

I think there might be more of a clamour for him to be in the team from the stands had he been at the academy from a young age, but I don't think that would necessarily lead to him being chosen. Look at Thompson and Ford - both of whom had been with the academy from a young age. One has left and the other is out on loan with uncertainty over his long term future as they've been replaced by Drysdale and Williams, both brought in much later.

With SISU deciding who stays and goes, I'm sure that they do have a say but it's in more general terms of funding and they'll say "your budget is £x. If you want/need more you'll have to wheel and deal". At our level when you have limited sellable assets and interest in your players then it's almost decided for you who you let leave because there's very few options. On occasion they'll probably push for a player to be sold to make up some of a cash shortfall. But I really don't think they sit there and dictate to MR "that player's leaving, that player's staying"

 

[Deleted member 5849]

If the manager rated Ponticelli ahead of the other strikers at the club, he'd be in the team. It's a nonsense to suggest SISU pick that team!

 

[Wyken Sky Blue]

But but but....

he's a local lad and has Twitter so much deserve a start for us???

/FB Group sarcasm...

 

[Nick]

Have I walked in to a crack den? Some of the posts are off their tits.

 

[Grendel]

Sisu decides who stays and who goes, it's a buisness, and has got nothing to do with ponti does on the pitch if he had been at the academy since u8 he would be in the team I believe.

lol so Joy and Tim tell Robins to loan out Ponticelli

 

[Grendel]

I disagree on both points.

I think there might be more of a clamour for him to be in the team from the stands had he been at the academy from a young age, but I don't think that would necessarily lead to him being chosen. Look at Thompson and Ford - both of whom had been with the academy from a young age. One has left and the other is out on loan with uncertainty over his long term future as they've been replaced by Drysdale and Williams, both brought in much later.

With SISU deciding who stays and goes, I'm sure that they do have a say but it's in more general terms of funding and they'll say "your budget is £x. If you want/need more you'll have to wheel and deal". At our level when you have limited sellable assets and interest in your players then it's almost decided for you who you let leave because there's very few options. On occasion they'll probably push for a player to be sold to make up some of a cash shortfall. But I really don't think they sit there and dictate to MR "that player's leaving, that player's staying"

On that basis he only reason we’d have to sell Ponticelli is because we are short in cash flow and we’ve ran out of toilet roll in one cubicle at Ryton

 

[Malaka]

The Harry Kane thing was about how he can be slow to get going at the start of a season. The point was if you judged Harry Kane most season after the first half dozen games you'd have dropped him because he hadn't scored and missed some gilt edged chances. One he's up to speed though.....

The last time JP was prolific was the last time he was fit. This season is less than a month old and he's featured in 2 games. He was injured for the whole of last season for all intents and purposes. Year before that he scored a goal a game in the U23 as a first year pro and year before that hit over 30 in his academy year. That was more than Sambou managed in his final year and he's now playing Eredivise. It's also way more than George Thomas managed (who went through the academy as a striker) and players like Callum Wilson (or anyone else I can remember). He played in one U23 pre-season friendly and scored a hat trick (and I don't think he played the entire game) although it wasn't the highest standard of opponent.

I think Ponticelli suffers from having been talked about for so long and people forget he hasn't yet turned 21. Meanwhile when Wilson broke through he'd largely gone under the radar so felt like a very young player, but it was his fourth year under contract. Ponticelli is currently just starting his third and spent his second year injured.

Callum Wilson didn't break into the first team until he was 22. At the same age Ponticelli is now he'd played 2 first team games for us and not scored. He'd played 20 games at Conference level and scored 2. In the equivalent season to this one for Ponti, he played 11 times for us in L1 and scored 1. I imagine most were only a few minutes here and there though.

Ponti scored 6 goals in 26 games (most as a sub with limited time on the pitch) at 18/19 in L2.

I agree he needs to be able to prove himself and he's been unlucky in his chances to do so. When he started the odd cup game at 18 he wasn't exactly setting the place on fire but he was a few months into becoming a professional and playing as a lone striker. Even then he was putting himself about and getting into scoring positions. He's not the tallest or the quickest so he's going to rely on getting into good positions and putting the ball in the net. From what I've seen of him he can do that, and is willing to work and chase things when he has been put on, even if he does need to learn to do it in a more disciplined manner. That's why I think he'd do well to be watching and learning from Godden.

And speaking of Godden at the same age as Ponti he'd played 8 games for a league team and not scored (albeit at Champ and L1 level, but even by the age of 23 he was only featuring in 5 games for a league 2 team and still had yet to score a league goal). He'd been on loan to the conference twice played 13 games and scored 3 goals. So that's the same strike rate as Ponti but a league lower (half the number of appearances but probably more minutes on the pitch in those games).

To have people on here suggest we should just get rid of him at this stage is just incredibly short-sighted and people need to remember he's only 20. He may not make it but he's yet to be given the chance to show it.

 

[Malaka]

And if you remember, Wilson was told by Pressley he was surplus to needs and could have gone in the season he broke through.

 

[Joy Division]

And if you remember, Wilson was told by Pressley he was surplus to needs and could have gone in the season he broke through.

Was this right? I thought Pressley was the first manager to give him a proper chance.

 

[Malaka]

Was this right? I thought Pressley was the first manager to give him a proper chance.

Just done quick search and found this Why England new boy Wilson was nearly scrapped by Coventry before breakthrough

You were right about Pressley, I was wrong, but I knew he was nearly got rid of

 

[covboy1987]

Your defence of the lad is very well throught out. To the point you have me thinking your a relative or the man himself!! Either way I hope you are right and as I have said before ccfc will be the benficators if he goes and turns himself into a top class finisher. Time will tell and I wish him well.

N.b if you are a relative for me he needs to work on two aspects. Speed over 10 yards and all round energy levels. The former you can hire a sprint coach to help with and most people can improve 15% with the right training. The latter he needs to watch videos of top class forwards who through movement create huge issues for defenders and create space for others. When I have seen him play he looks as slow as the defenders he is up against and also second in the physical duels. That combination will not get him many chances without finding space by upping his speed of thought and feet.

Got to say Micky Quinn was slow as an old tug boat but he was a natural finisher

 

[Adge]

Sisu wouldn't even know the names of the players. Robins decides who stays and goes.

Im sure they know the names of the saleable assets when the books need to be balanced.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Im sure they know the names of the saleable assets when the books need to be balanced.

And they aren't going to include Ponticelli.

 

[covboy1987]

Basically I would imagine Robins hasn't a clue how good or bad ponticelli really is - The idea is to send him out on load and if he got a boatload of goals in the league we are playing in then happy days - Big issue is he is not getting a sniff of a shirt

 

[Adge]

And they aren't going to include Ponticelli.

No, probably not.

 

[Gazolba]

Basically I would imagine Robins hasn't a clue how good or bad ponticelli really is - The idea is to send him out on load and if he got a boatload of goals in the league we are playing in then happy days - Big issue is he is not getting a sniff of a shirt

You can only score if you are on the pitch. He has scored for us, but he's had far too little game time to make any impact.
As previously said, he was out injured for most of last season.
Now he's at Tranmere but still not getting any game time.
He should be recalled and sent somewhere where he will get guaranteed game time.

 

[shmmeee]

If the manager rated Ponticelli ahead of the other strikers at the club, he'd be in the team. It's a nonsense to suggest SISU pick that team!

Though if they do: Joy for manager!

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Though if they do: Joy for manager!

It's ludicrous on so many levels. Even if Joy was picking the team, if Ponticelli was currently better than Godden he'd be playing, as his value'd end up £5mil in a season or two!