Bury gone (20 Viewers)

Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Well-Known Member
Even if the premier league gave everyone else in the football league another 5m each per season on average (staggered/divided up however you like), all it would do is cause wage inflation and end up in footballers pockets again, and you'd have the same battle between clubs trying to get in the higher leagues to get the bigger bucks and again spending above their means to do it. You'd still get clubs going pop.

You need salary caps if anything is going to change really, and I think it's too late for that now because of the power of the premier league.

Bit of a pie in the sky idea but - the only way the premier league would lose any power is if the rest of the EFL broke away and got rid of promotion to that league and relegation from it. Would kill the competition in the prem for everyone cemented outside of the top 7.
The Championship is more entertaining in my view anyway...

That would be a ballsy move, and probably one the PL would agree with. I think the initial reaction from fans, even those of the lower clubs, would be "great, no worry of relegation" but after a few years of constantly being at the bottom and losing more than winning even with spending £100m+ on transfers and £100k+ a week on salaries it'd get dull for them. It got pretty dull for us after 30 odd years and was only made bearable by some exciting relegation scraps - they wouldn't even have those.

Plus they'd have the danger in the American system - start a season badly and the players just give up and tank - there's no incentive to try as they won't be relegated.

It could be better long term but would result in a short term loss. That's why the EFL club chairman and owners wouldn't go for it - most of them are there for the PL pot of gold - take it away and they're not interested. Clubs would be devalued without it so their investments would be worth less. They're certainly more bothered about the £ in their pocket rather than the future of the game
 

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stevefloyd

Well-Known Member
I really feel for all the Bury fans, mismanaged club and but for the grace of god that could be us, when the likes of Manure are spending 70 80 million on mediocre players like Mcguire which could be the life blood of lower league teams, the football worlds gone crazy and like many of our animals which are heading for extinction, greed is ruining everything that this beautiful world has to give...SERMON OVER... the hierarchy are cunts
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
I really feel for all the Bury fans, mismanaged club and but for the grace of god that could be us, when the likes of Manure are spending 70 80 million on mediocre players like Mcguire which could be the life blood of lower league teams, the football worlds gone crazy and like many of our animals which are heading for extinction, greed is ruining everything that this beautiful world has to give...SERMON OVER... the hierarchy are cunts

I honestly don’t see any correlation to bury and the maguire signing

As this article says - it’s Tesco’s and the corner shop. I can’t hunt anything I really disagree with in the article

MARTIN SAMUEL: Don't blame the elite for the demise of Bury... their fall is their own business | Daily Mail Online
 

Sky Blue Pete

Well-Known Member

stevefloyd

Well-Known Member
I honestly don’t see any correlation to bury and the maguire signing

As this article says - it’s Tesco’s and the corner shop. I can’t hunt anything I really disagree with in the article

MARTIN SAMUEL: Don't blame the elite for the demise of Bury... their fall is their own business | Daily Mail Online
What I was trying to say was that while clubs are paying ridiculous amounts of money for players in the prem and such likes if some of the monies were distributed to the lower leagues we hopefully shouldnt see the likes of Bury and such being kicked out of the league..Mcguire was just an example of the football world going crazy
 

Sky Blue Pete

Well-Known Member
Tesco £3bn profit comes at a cost. Normally staffing and other businesses in the area losing their livelihoods. Cheap food and clothes comes at a huge cost just not to us
 

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
I honestly don’t see any correlation to bury and the maguire signing
Are people using him to suggest that the money at the top doesn't work its way down the pyramid? If so they've picked the wrong player as all the teams he's played for since youth football either currently are or have recently been PL teams.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
We had a new asda in cheylesmore the spar and one of the newsagents closed within 12months. Course they’re linked

That’s not what he’s saying though is it
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
What I was trying to say was that while clubs are paying ridiculous amounts of money for players in the prem and such likes if some of the monies were distributed to the lower leagues we hopefully shouldnt see the likes of Bury and such being kicked out of the league..Mcguire was just an example of the football world going crazy

But it wouldn’t - in the case if Bury give them £5 m and they’d spend £7m
 

skyblueelephant76

Well-Known Member
What I was trying to say was that while clubs are paying ridiculous amounts of money for players in the prem and such likes if some of the monies were distributed to the lower leagues we hopefully shouldnt see the likes of Bury and such being kicked out of the league..Mcguire was just an example of the football world going crazy
Based on how Bury and Bolton were run, any extra money they were given they just would have spent.

The key is that clubs have to live within their means and fans are going to have to start changing their expectations.
 

oldskyblue58

CCFC Finance Director
Distribute more money from the prem and you will still have the same 72 (now 71) owners using it in the same manner and creating the same problems just with bigger numbers. Personally i am inclined on the side of why should the prem do that - quite rightly they must put their own business first. Can anyone actually say they would be happy to see more "free" money in the hands of owners like Dale?

The reason why the prem has so much more money is because they provide the most saleable product. Market forces really

Football is not a co-operative it is dog eat dog with some very shady characters. Part of the reason that the prem hoovers up the young talent is that profligate owners in the lower leagues have dug themselves many holes and driven prices down because it is sell or go out of business and the big clubs know that.

Until the band of 72 (members) in the guise of the EFL sort their own house out there is very little point in pointing the finger at the prem or others, saying how unfair the money is. The members of the EFL choose to operate as they do.

The size of player fees could be solved by all owners banding together and simply not paying the inflated prices. Only a few problems with that idea though (1) could you trust the owners to band together and stick to it - probably not (2) you couldnt do it in just one country but have to apply to all - never going to happen (3) the effect on TV income streams of the players choosing other countries (4) the fans expectations

As harsh as it may seem, there are too many professional teams in this country. The whole thing in current state is simply unsustainable
 
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Deleted member 5849

Guest
Football is not a co-operative it is dog eat dog with some very shady characters
Well... the top flight runs as a co-operative with its TV deal, and before it broke away, the entire football league ran as a co-operative in that sense.

And running football as a co-operative is important long-term, because although the short-term is served by creaming off the cash, long-term that threatens making a superficial product which loses its appeal. The whole reason the Premier League became a marketable product in the first place is because of the depth that lies in the English game, which is pretty unique, really. It also became a marketable product because of the ability of a club such as Wimbledon to aspire to the top flight and be able to not just reach there, but thrive once there. This may be less of a case now than when the Premier League was formed, but they would be well to remember where they came from and that the product succeeds by being a competition. Every club, after all, can go bust...

Given the rewards for failure in reaching the top flight and bombing straight back down, the unequal distribution of wealth encourages irresponsibility, as there's too big an incentive to gamble to get to the top flight, and take some of that cash.

Now of course making cash distributions more equitable doesn't save clubs from a Steve Dale. It hasn't in the past either (you can still visit Cathkin Park and stand on the terraces, shame Third Lanark don't exist anymore), but you can introduce policies which discouragew the irresponsible gambling. In the wider sense, we need to move away from business oriented companies to societal oriented clubs. That won't happen whilst the owners control what happens however and, tbh, won't happen in a society which values money more than it does social and cultural benefits.
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
EFL clubs should stop selling talent to the Prem and stop promoting teams to it. Just tell UEFA were the Captain now and Championship winners should go in the Champions League.

Oh wait, that’s a ridiculous unworkable idea, so maybe the Prem doesn’t exist is a bubble of its own making after all!
 

hill83

Well-Known Member
Football league have just agreed to discuss the possibility of Bury re-entering the football league.
I think that will mean league 2 next season.

Makes a bit of a mockery of them being expelled in the first place but It's good for the club and their fans obviously.
 

Nick

Administrator
Football league have just agreed to discuss the possibility of Bury re-entering the football league.
I think that will mean league 2 next season.

Makes a bit of a mockery of them being expelled in the first place but It's good for the club and their fans obviously.
Yeah it's a bit pointless
 

fatso

Well-Known Member
Football league have just agreed to discuss the possibility of Bury re-entering the football league.
I think that will mean league 2 next season.

Makes a bit of a mockery of them being expelled in the first place but It's good for the club and their fans obviously.
A bit harsh on the non league clubs that are run well and trying to get into the football league.
 

better days

Well-Known Member
Football league have just agreed to discuss the possibility of Bury re-entering the football league.
I think that will mean league 2 next season.

Makes a bit of a mockery of them being expelled in the first place but It's good for the club and their fans obviously.
Police also apparently investigating possible fraud there
Dale reported to have been taking money out according to reports today
 

AVWskyblue

Well-Known Member
Police also apparently investigating possible fraud there
Dale reported to have been taking money out according to reports today
I wonder what is the correct action if the police case is proven, surely it would be out of the club's control if he's been robbing them blind

Sent from my Alba7Nou using Tapatalk
 

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
Makes a bit of a mockery of them being expelled in the first place but It's good for the club and their fans obviously.
Wouldn't be surprised if one of the other clubs it affects takes legal action. Whole thing is a mess and even expelling them hasn't sorted it.
 

mark82

Super Moderator
A bit harsh on the non league clubs that are run well and trying to get into the football league.

Wouldn't make a difference to the number of non-league clubs promoted, would affect the second bottom team in league 2 though.
 

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
How does putting them in League two actually punish them?
It doesn't, not in the slightest. They would have gone down this year anyway so have a year with no wage bill and start from and start next season better off than they would have been.
 

Otis

Well-Known Member
Yup. If it is to be League Two,it needs to be with at least a 10 point deduction.
 

Hobo

Well-Known Member
Based on how Bury and Bolton were run, any extra money they were given they just would have spent.

The key is that clubs have to live within their means and fans are going to have to start changing their expectations.

Exactly Bolton had debt written off in about 2012. About 124 million worth and managed to build the debt up again. Rather than learn they just repeated the mistakes.
 

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
Exactly Bolton had debt written off in about 2012. About 124 million worth and managed to build the debt up again. Rather than learn they just repeated the mistakes.
If Portsmouth wasn't a big enough lesson struggle to think anyone else will be. Administration in 1998 (close to going out of business completely), 2010 (while in the Prem) and then 2012. Its not just bad luck causing clubs to have problems its a relentless cycle of spending more than you have in the hopes of winning the PL lottery.

Amazingly it wasn't long after the club was most recently saved that their fans began calls to sell up to someone who could invest more in the team rather than running as self sustaining.
 

better days

Well-Known Member
This is pretty serious stuff..........

Bury staff missing thousands of pounds from pension pots
Martyn Ziegler, Chief Sports Reporter


September 4 2019, 5:00pm, The Times

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Bury were expelled from the Football League last week and police are conducting a fraud inquiryDAVE HOWARTH/PA
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Tens of thousands of pounds of pensions contributions taken from staff members’ salaries by Bury Football Club appear to have disappeared, it can be revealed.

The latest development in the financial scandal surrounding Bury, who were expelled from the Football League last week, comes after police confirmed they have launched a fraud inquiry into the club.

Two former academy employees at the club have told The Times that their pension pots only contain a few pounds despite two years of paying pension contributions. The employer contributions to match the staff contributions have not been paid into their pension funds either. The club has admitted to a pensions deficit of £100,000.

Andy Tower, who was the Bury academy’s head of coaching until last week, and the former head academy physio Josh Birtwistle said they believed all the academy and first team staff were in the same boat.

Tower said that he was alerted to the failure to pass on the contributions last year when the former owner Stewart Day was still in charge. No pension contributions have been made since Steve Dale took over the club in December.

Tower said: “Not only have we not received contributions from the club, but the payments that were taken from our salaries have not been paid in there either. This goes back two years and there is just £5 in my pension fund when there should be more than £2,500.

“It goes back to the previous regime and lots of people raised it at different times. The club’s explanation was always that, ‘We know there’s an issue and we are looking into it but the money is there.’ But if the money is there, where exactly is it?”

Birtwistle, who is also missing around two years of pension payments, has only £3.63 in his pension fund. He said he had raised an internal complaint earlier this year and eventually had to take time off work due to the stress before leaving the club in May.

He said: “Eventually I realised I had to get out of there. I had previously worked at Leyton Orient when it had been going through its problems and I saw all the same warning signs. Everyone I knew among the academy staff and the first-team staff are missing contributions.”

Birtwistle said he sent five emails to Inquesta, the insolvency practitioners supervising the company voluntary arrangement (CVA) which was proposed to cut Bury’s debts, before receiving a response that it would take six to eight weeks for it to investigate.

The pension issue was admitted by Inquesta’s Steven Wiseglass in his CVA proposal to creditors on June 21.

He said that “No payments have been made into the [pension] scheme for a significant period of time” and that “the club has estimated it to be a deficit of £100,000”.

Wiseglass and Dale did not respond when contacted for comment.
 

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