Greta Thunberg / Climate Change Summit (2 Viewers)

[Colin1883]

The other side

Adapt2030

 

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[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

I’m amazed that so many people seem to be denying this. It’s a daily occurrence that some scientist or another is on the radio with more evidence of what is happening. This is all just a giant conspiracy for what end? I was listening to a union leader today saying that any change in Labour Party policy with regard to having a carbon neutral economy must still guarantee the jobs of his members in carbon heavy industries. If we don’t make a radical change to the way we live, it won’t be just jobs that his members are worrying about.I think we need to take our head out of the sand and see what is happening to the world. The whether patterns in our own country should be telling us that something is going on.
My son has started going out with a girl who comes from Kuwait. She was saying that temperatures of 50 degrees are now fairly common there, something they only saw on rare occasions before.

Not sure if you mean climate change in general or this thread. Problem with climate change in general is that those who are the worst polluters deny it, arguably not due to the science but because they don't want to lose the economic 'advantage' and the companies involved have a great deal of power and influence. At the moment questioning the science seems to be their best delaying tactic, even though the evidence is already strong and growing.

If you mean this thread then I don't think it's about denying climate change, it's more a discussion about Greta Thunberg and if there is someone else pulling strings.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

She’s autistic dude

She must be very high-functioning then. Can't believe any parent would think "we've got an autistic child so clearly the best thing to do is put her in the global media spotlight and giving presentations and speeches around the world to thousands of people and also putting her in the firing line of some rabid selfish idiots with no morals.

 

[shmmeee]

She must be very high-functioning then. Can't believe any parent would think "we've got an autistic child so clearly the best thing to do is put her in the global media spotlight and giving presentations and speeches around the world to thousands of people and also putting her in the firing line of some rabid selfish idiots with no morals.

Autism is a spectrum. I’m on the autistic spectrum, I don’t need wrapping in cotton wool.

Why are you trying to hard to discredit a little girl is the real question.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

I say fair play to her and I admire her greatly for what she is doing. I am sure many kids find her an inspiration.

And as for her childhood being ruined, she is talking about her education, which had had to take a bit of a sideline, because this stuff has now taken over her life and she is constantly in the spotlight.

Her parents could've made her get her education first rather than sailing round the world. But my suspicion is they've encouraged this route rather than education. Rather than letting her enjoy growing up in a 'normal' manner they seem to have been drumming into her from an early age how bad everything is.

The likes of the energy companies and right-wing nutjobs have ruined her future. Her parents destroyed her childhood.

 

[Astute]

That article is a decade out of date. We’ve have models updated and things are moving faster than ever.

seriously guys, there isn’t a conspiracy, this is really happening. Pull your heads out the sand.

Read again. It isn't about denial. It is about possible/probable causes over millions of years. Causes we still have but not to the same extremes. Just like we have with methane.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Autism is a spectrum. I’m on the autistic spectrum, I don’t need wrapping in cotton wool.

Why are you trying to hard to discredit a little girl is the real question.

I'm not trying to discredit a little girl. I agree with her that something needs to be done and she's highlighting the issue very well.

But the answer isn't going to come from people going around talking about it, regardless of age. It'll come from providing genuine answers and alternatives to the way we live now.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Read again. It isn't about denial. It is about possible/probable causes over millions of years. Causes we still have but not to the same extremes. Just like we have with methane.

You do understand the issue is about the rate of change don't you?

No-one has said that the climate hasn't changed over the history of the planet for various reasons, but there is no evidence taken from core samples etc that suggest the climate has ever changed as quickly as this unless it can be linked to a cataclysmic one-off event.

Plus it could be even worse than we think because going by the natural cycle we should be entering another ice age right about now, not getting hotter.

 

[Astute]

You do understand the issue is about the rate of change don't you?

No-one has said that the climate hasn't changed over the history of the planet for various reasons, but there is no evidence taken from core samples etc that suggest the climate has ever changed as quickly as this unless it can be linked to a cataclysmic one-off event.

Plus it could be even worse than we think because going by the natural cycle we should be entering another ice age right about now, not getting hotter.

Give me strength.

So what have I denied? What don't I know?

So lets dumb it down for some.

Whatever we do there are things we can't change. They make a lot of difference alone. They have been enough by themselves previously to make a difference. Everything else adds onto them and accelerates what is happening.

Or are you denying this is the truth?

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

I’m amazed that so many people seem to be denying this. It’s a daily occurrence that some scientist or another is on the radio with more evidence of what is happening. This is all just a giant conspiracy for what end? I was listening to a union leader today saying that any change in Labour Party policy with regard to having a carbon neutral economy must still guarantee the jobs of his members in carbon heavy industries. If we don’t make a radical change to the way we live, it won’t be just jobs that his members are worrying about.I think we need to take our head out of the sand and see what is happening to the world. The whether patterns in our own country should be telling us that something is going on.
My son has started going out with a girl who comes from Kuwait. She was saying that temperatures of 50 degrees are now fairly common there, something they only saw on rare occasions before.

If we genuinely want to change things there is only one way we can do it and that's to make it so that capitalists will make more money from renewable energy and recyclable materials than fossil fuels etc. so they divest their interests into renewable. It's a sad indictment of our species but it's the truth.

As for the guarantee for jobs in carbon heavy industries, the offer should be equivalent replacement jobs in renewable industries. Push green energy to start up in places which currently have a high reliance on carbon heavy industry with grants etc. If they say no then accidentally let it slip that the unions had turned down the opportunity for job creation in a far more long-term sustainable industry.

Also see today that the new nuclear plant is going to be way over budget and late. For the kind of money being banded about you could pretty much get solar panels on every house in the country. But for some reason we're keeping going with investing in short-term energy but long term cost nuclear and fracking - I wonder why?

 

[clint van damme]

If we genuinely want to change things there is only one way we can do it and that's to make it so that capitalists will make more money from renewable energy and recyclable materials than fossil fuels etc. so they divest their interests into renewable. It's a sad indictment of our species but it's the truth.

As for the guarantee for jobs in carbon heavy industries, the offer should be equivalent replacement jobs in renewable industries. Push green energy to start up in places which currently have a high reliance on carbon heavy industry with grants etc. If they say no then accidentally let it slip that the unions had turned down the opportunity for job creation in a far more long-term sustainable industry.

Also see today that the new nuclear plant is going to be way over budget and late. For the kind of money being banded about you could pretty much get solar panels on every house in the country. But for some reason we're keeping going with investing in short-term energy but long term cost nuclear and fracking - I wonder why?

That's how I see it. I think cutting meat consumption as well, which isn't going happen.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Give me strength.

So what have I denied? What don't I know?

So lets dumb it down for some.

Whatever we do there are things we can't change. They make a lot of difference alone. They have been enough by themselves previously to make a difference. Everything else adds onto them and accelerates what is happening.

Or are you denying this is the truth?

I'm not claiming you're denying climate change.

I was pointing out that the 'natural' factors lead to change on a much longer timeframe - thousands or tens of thousands of years, sometimes longer but since industrialisation we've managed to change that to hundreds or years, and getting smaller.

When the change was happening over longer time periods plants and animals had time to evolve and adapt to those circumstances. With the accelerated change complex organisms won't be able to adapt fast enough and will lead to extinctions.

I was also pointing out that going by the natural cycle the earth should be in a phase of cooling down around now, not warming up.

We've become like a cancer and we're eating away at the thing sustaining us faster and faster and killing it, thus bringing about our own demise (and almost everything else) with it. We're all just too dumb to see it. Even those of us aware of it will add to it. I'll be turning on the heating soon burning gas. I'm using electricity to write this. How many will be getting in the car/on a coach to go and watch Cov at the weekend? Or flying somewhere on holiday before long? Or buying something in loads of packaging that can't be recycled?

 

[CovInEssex]

Saying "why are you having a pop at a young girl" isn't a defence. She joined an adult conversation on the highest stage.

Shoot me down but her comments were over the top. "you've ruined my life" erm what? Go and enjoy your teenage years a bit, US/EU emission levels are down massively. Point the finger elsewhere, or more specifically get your mum and dad to instruct you to point them elsewhere.

 

[skybluetony176]

Her parents could've made her get her education first rather than sailing round the world. But my suspicion is they've encouraged this route rather than education. Rather than letting her enjoy growing up in a 'normal' manner they seem to have been drumming into her from an early age how bad everything is.

The likes of the energy companies and right-wing nutjobs have ruined her future. Her parents destroyed her childhood.

She understands that climate change is happening and on this occasion it’s man made. Her education seems way ahead of many adults for that reason alone.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Under Trump expect the US emissions to rise sharply again. Head of the EPA is a climate change denier, lots of environmental protections have been removed. They've even banned California from setting itself more stringent emissions targets than the federal ones. How you end up banning somewhere from doing more than it's required I don't know.

 

[skybluetony176]

Give me strength.

So what have I denied? What don't I know?

So lets dumb it down for some.

Whatever we do there are things we can't change. They make a lot of difference alone. They have been enough by themselves previously to make a difference. Everything else adds onto them and accelerates what is happening.

Or are you denying this is the truth?

The climate change we’re experiencing now is not a natural phenomenon. It’s man made. How is that so difficult to understand. It’s irrelevant that the climate has changed over billions of years because the causes were not man made.

 

[skybluetony176]

Saying "why are you having a pop at a young girl" isn't a defence. She joined an adult conversation on the highest stage.

Shoot me down but her comments were over the top. "you've ruined my life" erm what? Go and enjoy your teenage years a bit, US/EU emission levels are down massively. Point the finger elsewhere, or more specifically get your mum and dad to instruct you to point them elsewhere.

Adult conversation would suggest that the people that she is addressing has an adult understanding of what she’s talking about. The fact that a child is having to explain it to them sums up the mental capacity of the audience. It’s not her people should be judging.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

She understands that climate change is happening and on this occasion it’s man made. Her education seems way ahead of many adults for that reason alone.

Just because she understands climate change doesn't mean she has a more rounded understanding of other related issues, such as the economic, or even other school subjects which she maybe missing out on through being this spokesperson. Sometimes you can see that she is just a young child because she seems to have a simplistic view on the subject - "It's killing the planet so let's just stop doing it". But what about the jobs etc that will lead to people being unable to support themselves or their families? These are things that can be fixed, but not overnight. It's going to have to be a gradual transition that would take decades to implement even if every single person on the planet was on the same page and working towards it, let alone having some powerful and influential individuals and companies fighting against it.

As I said above I think the problem isn't necessarily education, although it will depend on where you're being educated. The biggest problem is that they don't care. They prefer money. Even a number of those that do deny it I think believe it's happening, but they don't think it'll put money in their pocket so they're not interested. If anything they're just taking a punt that it won't happen while they're alive and so they don't need to be bothered about it - not their problem.

I think the difference is that as you get older other pressures take over and compromises have to be made on idealism. Kids/young adults have been highlighting this issue for decades in one way or another, even going back to things like the hippies when climate science was largely unheard of. I was well aware of the growing issue of climate change by her age.

I'm willing to bet in 20 years the children of the kids campaigning now will be complaining to their parents that something needs to be done and why haven't you taken action. Every generation ends up kicking the can down the road because ultimately other more time-pressing issues take precedence and before you know it 20-30 years have passed and you've inadvertently ended up passing the buck to the next generation.

As I said above the only way to solve this is to make it so someone can make more money from it than the stuff damaging the planet.

 

[skybluetony176]

I think the difference is that as you get older other pressures take over and compromises have to be made on idealism. Kids/young adults have been highlighting this issue for decades in one way or another, even going back to things like the hippies when climate science was largely unheard of. I was well aware of the growing issue of climate change by her age.

I'm willing to bet in 20 years the children of the kids campaigning now will be complaining to their parents that something needs to be done and why haven't you taken action. Every generation ends up kicking the can down the road because ultimately other more time-pressing issues take precedence and before you know it 20-30 years have passed and you've inadvertently ended up passing the buck to the next generation.

As I said above the only way to solve this is to make it so someone can make more money from it than the stuff damaging the planet.

I think that’s already happening with things like wind power. Wind and Solar is already comparable with fossil fuel and whereas the cost of fossil fuel generation is rising the cost of wind and solar is falling. It wasn’t that long ago it was twice the price per MWh and it’s now on par. Problem is fossil fuel isn’t being phased out quickly enough. Countries like Denmark are decades ahead of us as they started investing in alternative generation to fossil fuel in the Suez crisis as they recognised that their dependence on fossil fuel was easily compromised and could force the country to a standstill. It wasn’t even an environmental decision initially, it was an economic decision.

 

[ccfc92]

I say fair play to her and I admire her greatly for what she is doing. I am sure many kids find her an inspiration.

And as for her childhood being ruined, she is talking about her education, which had had to take a bit of a sideline, because this stuff has now taken over her life and she is constantly in the spotlight.

Self inflicted and I am sure they don't mind the spotlight? Sounds more like give up school and do this instead, to me.

I agree with Climate Change needing tackling though!

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

That's how I see it. I think cutting meat consumption as well, which isn't going happen.

Short term definitely not. Longer term, who knows? There are definitely more people becoming vegetarian/vegan or having meat free days. I think insects may become a stepping stone over time. It's one of my worst traits but I've reduced the amount of met I eat but my energy levels drop drastically and alternatives like soya and tofu just seem to disagree with me.

Even less likely is the need to find a new economic model which is not obsessed with growth but sustainability. Models which desire ever growing consumption and population levels, but the planet isn't expanding with us. It can't carry on. As a species we spent hundreds of thousands of years with a steady population around 1bn. In a few hundred years it's gone up to nearly 8bn and counting. It can't carry on and if we don't redress the balance nature eventually will and that will be truly terrifying to witness. The plagues of medieval Europe will be like an outbreak of the common cold in comparison.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

I think that’s already happening with things like wind power. Wind and Solar is already comparable with fossil fuel and whereas the cost of fossil fuel generation is rising the cost of wind and solar is falling. It wasn’t that long ago it was twice the price per MWh and it’s now on par. Problem is fossil fuel isn’t being phased out quickly enough. Countries like Denmark are decades ahead of us as they started investing in alternative generation to fossil fuel in the Suez crisis as they recognised that their dependence on fossil fuel was easily compromised and could force the country to a standstill. It wasn’t even an environmental decision initially, it was an economic decision.

The decision will ultimately be due to economic, not environmental reasons. It's why I can't understand why we've not gone the same route. It's an industry with long-term sustainability and provides us with energy independence so we're not reliant on others. But instead we continue to go with fuels which allow places like Russia and the Middle East to get away with all sorts of stuff because we rely on the fuel.

Green energy is a massive opportunity both environmentally and economically, not a threat

 

[skybluetony176]

Short term definitely not. Longer term, who knows? There are definitely more people becoming vegetarian/vegan or having meat free days. I think insects may become a stepping stone over time. It's one of my worst traits but I've reduced the amount of met I eat but my energy levels drop drastically and alternatives like soya and tofu just seem to disagree with me.

Even less likely is the need to find a new economic model which is not obsessed with growth but sustainability. Models which desire ever growing consumption and population levels, but the planet isn't expanding with us. It can't carry on. As a species we spent hundreds of thousands of years with a steady population around 1bn. In a few hundred years it's gone up to nearly 8bn and counting. It can't carry on and if we don't redress the balance nature eventually will and that will be truly terrifying to witness. The plagues of medieval Europe will be like an outbreak of the common cold in comparison.

I went and watched a film called game changer the other week and although it was about promoting plant based diets for health benefits and dismissing the myth that we need to eat meat and dairy it touched briefly on the environmental impact of eating meat and dairy and it was staggering. I haven’t had chance to fact check the claims and I’m going from memory so bare with me if I haven’t got the details 100% correct. If everyone stopped eating meat and dairy it would be the equivalent of taking the worlds transportation system out the loop. That’s the meat and dairy industries carbon footprint being comparable to every car, every van, every lorry, every train, every ship and every aeroplane in the world. The single biggest reason for clearing forests and jungle is to grow crops, 80% of which will be used as animal feed by the meat and dairy industry. The second biggest reason is for ranching for the meat and dairy industry. So basically eating meat and dairy makes you 100% responsible for the second biggest reason for deforestation and 80% for the first. Even then the second bit is questionable as it takes many more acres to support a meat and dairy based diet than it does a plant based diet so a plant based diet would not only negate the need for deforestation it could actually make land available the size of Africa to reinstate forests lost to deforestation. Then you get into water consumption. The amount of water needed to produce 1 hamburger is staggering.

 

[clint van damme]

Short term definitely not. Longer term, who knows? There are definitely more people becoming vegetarian/vegan or having meat free days. I think insects may become a stepping stone over time. It's one of my worst traits but I've reduced the amount of met I eat but my energy levels drop drastically and alternatives like soya and tofu just seem to disagree with me.

Even less likely is the need to find a new economic model which is not obsessed with growth but sustainability. Models which desire ever growing consumption and population levels, but the planet isn't expanding with us. It can't carry on. As a species we spent hundreds of thousands of years with a steady population around 1bn. In a few hundred years it's gone up to nearly 8bn and counting. It can't carry on and if we don't redress the balance nature eventually will and that will be truly terrifying to witness. The plagues of medieval Europe will be like an outbreak of the common cold in comparison.

apparently even insect numbers are reducing which could have potentially devastating effects apparently.

 

[Otis]

Self inflicted and I am sure they don't mind the spotlight? Sounds more like give up school and do this instead, to me.

I agree with Climate Change needing tackling though!

I think people are being incredibly harsh on her to be honest.

My daughter says there are 15 year olds at her school in Birmingham getting really active and going down to parliament off their own backs to protest.

 

[clint van damme]

Saying "why are you having a pop at a young girl" isn't a defence. She joined an adult conversation on the highest stage.

Shoot me down but her comments were over the top. "you've ruined my life" erm what? Go and enjoy your teenage years a bit, US/EU emission levels are down massively. Point the finger elsewhere, or more specifically get your mum and dad to instruct you to point them elsewhere.

she's sailed to New York in a yacht, lead a global protest and share a stage with the POTUS.
That beats drinking white lightening and getting fingered round the back of the local youth club.

 

[Otis]

I read up on her little while back and I don't think the pulling strings concept is valid to be honest.

'Thunberg says she first heard about climate change in 2011, when she was 8 years old, and could not understand why so little was being done about it. Three years later she became depressed and lethargic, stopped talking and eating, and was eventually diagnosed with Asperger's and selective mutism.

For about two years, Thunberg challenged her parents to lower the family's carbon footprint and give up flying, which in part meant her mother had to give up her international career as an opera singer.

Thunberg credits her parents' eventual response and lifestyle changes with giving her hope and belief that she could make a difference.'

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

I went and watched a film called game changer the other week and although it was about promoting plant based diets for health benefits and dismissing the myth that we need to eat meat and dairy it touched briefly on the environmental impact of eating meat and dairy and it was staggering. I haven’t had chance to fact check the claims and I’m going from memory so bare with me if I haven’t got the details 100% correct. If everyone stopped eating meat and dairy it would be the equivalent of taking the worlds transportation system out the loop. That’s the meat and dairy industries carbon footprint being comparable to every car, every van, every lorry, every train, every ship and every aeroplane in the world. The single biggest reason for clearing forests and jungle is to grow crops, 80% of which will be used as animal feed by the meat and dairy industry. The second biggest reason is for ranching for the meat and dairy industry. So basically eating meat and dairy makes you 100% responsible for the second biggest reason for deforestation and 80% for the first. Even then the second bit is questionable as it takes many more acres to support a meat and dairy based diet than it does a plant based diet so a plant based diet would not only negate the need for deforestation it could actually make land available the size of Africa to reinstate forests lost to deforestation. Then you get into water consumption. The amount of water needed to produce 1 hamburger is staggering.

I've heard of the film and have seen some of the things you mention in documentaries etc. I think QI did the fact about the amount of water needed for a hamburger.

But as I say that change will have to be gradual - we can't just put every single dairy and meat producer and their associated chains out of business overnight.

What would you do with the billions of animals raised for these markets? You can't just release them into the wild because they'd cause even wider havoc in the ecosystem. It is one of the ironies of those militant vegans etc that want everyone to change that if it actually happened it'd lead to the biggest animal cull in history.

Alternative employment will need to be given. Some will come from increased arable farming, others in reforestation and subsequent maintenance of it. Also some in things like species reintroduction and monitoring. But that will take time.

 

[ccfc92]

I think people are being incredibly harsh on her to be honest.

My daughter says there are 15 year olds at her school in Birmingham getting really active and going down to parliament off their own backs to protest.

When I was 15, I probably would have sacked off school to go on a jolly too. Anyone who thinks they are "giving up" their education purely to protest against climate change, is being very naive. IMO of course.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

apparently even insect numbers are reducing which could have potentially devastating effects apparently.

There are a lot of insect species struggling but there are some that are having booms in population due to more favourable conditions. They can also be 'farmed' much more quickly due to a shorter life cycle and in less space than livestock, although obviously the massive increase in demand would put pressure on this so again the transition would need to be quite gradual.

 

[Grendel]

I read up on her little while back and I don't think the pulling strings concept is valid to be honest.

'Thunberg says she first heard about climate change in 2011, when she was 8 years old, and could not understand why so little was being done about it. Three years later she became depressed and lethargic, stopped talking and eating, and was eventually diagnosed with Asperger's and selective mutism.

For about two years, Thunberg challenged her parents to lower the family's carbon footprint and give up flying, which in part meant her mother had to give up her international career as an opera singer.

Thunberg credits her parents' eventual response and lifestyle changes with giving her hope and belief that she could make a difference.'

It strange as her parents have been activists for some time regarding this issue

 

[CovInEssex]

she's sailed to New York in a yacht, lead a global protest and share a stage with the POTUS.
That beats drinking white lightening and getting fingered round the back of the local youth club.

Oh no doubt, she's living the life. Why's she so angry then? Because she's an actress fed her lines by her parents and handlers.

 

[clint van damme]

Oh no doubt, she's living the life. Why's she so angry then? Because she's an actress fed her lines by her parents and handlers.

Yes, autistic children are notoriously easy to manipulate!!

 

[Otis]

Yes, autistic children are notoriously easy to manipulate!!

I've heard she is incredibly stubborn and driven and is not one to be bossed about or manipulated at all.

Yep and agree on the austic comment. I worked at a place that dealt with autistic children and they were anything but easily manipulated.

 

[clint van damme]

I've heard she is incredibly stubborn and driven and is not one to be bossed about or manipulated at all.

Yep and agree on the austic comment. I worked at a place that dealt with autistic children and they were anything but easily manipulated.

I know 3 people who deal with autistic kids professionally and they have some interesting stories!