The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (84 Viewers)

[Astute]

But the majority of the country believe it’s the better option than a Corbyn government

Exactly what I have been saying for ages but was seen as me being anti Labour. It is amazing how people have become blind to the truth. And thise who point out the truth are supposed to be the ones who are wrong.

Never mind. It might be over one day....or one year.

 

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[djr8369]

But the majority of the country believe it’s the better option than a Corbyn government

Weren’t you complaining the other day about these survey questions being phrased to lead people to an answer?


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[Ian1779]

But the majority of the country believe it’s the better option than a Corbyn government

No that’s what you want to believe.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I don't disagree with any of what you say here.
For me the use of "betrayal" and "traitors" is a big fuss over nothing. For me the likes of Jo Swinson are attempting blatantly to prevent the democratic will of the people and so to me she is a "traitor" to the democratic principles so engrained in this country. If that makes me an extremist then I'm okay with it, me and millions of others.

Interesting. Are you OK with the PM keeping Parliament, the embodiment of UK democracy, shut to force through No Deal?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Exactly what I have been saying for ages but was seen as me being anti Labour. It is amazing how people have become blind to the truth. And thise who point out the truth are supposed to be the ones who are wrong.

Never mind. It might be over one day....or one year.

Corbyn closed a nearly 30 point polling deficit in about 6 weeks once the country heard his domestic agenda from himself as opposed to from the right wing press.

Sadly since then he has played Brexit so poorly he cannot be kept in the role for much longer. He must be replaced with a ‘clean’ figure who supports the same policy objectives.

 

[CCFCSteve]

That’s a fair point. Kinnocks amendment making the house vote on Mays deal again passed by accident didn’t it? What happened to that? Shouldn’t there be a vote on it soon? Or was it taken out somehow?

Yeah, well remembered ! Not sure but it’s not been mentioned since. If that was included (and the government is bound by the outcome of any final WA vote) then avoiding No Deal would still be in the hands of the MPs, therefore, no need to force the extension ?

As I say the forced extension feels like it’s for wider reasons than just avoiding No Deal.

 

[CCFCSteve]

Interesting. Are you OK with the PM keeping Parliament, the embodiment of UK democracy, shut to force through No Deal?

Slightly more dramatic than the reality ! Due to the recently passed law and the time available between the EU summit and 31 Oct, I’m not convinced the proroguing wouldve done much other than avoid some of the noise (which is why I think it was a waste of political capital - very little to gain from it)

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Slightly more dramatic than the reality ! Due to the recently passed law and the time available between the EU summit and 31 Oct, I’m not convinced the proroguing wouldve done much other than avoid some of the noise (which is why I think it was a waste of political capital - very little to gain from it)

Isn't it literally what happened?

 

[Ian1779]

Corbyn closed a nearly 30 point polling deficit in about 6 weeks once the country heard his domestic agenda from himself as opposed to from the right wing press.

Sadly since then he has played Brexit so poorly he cannot be kept in the role for much longer. He must be replaced with a ‘clean’ figure who supports the same policy objectives.

Then tell me how he should have done it differently?

 

[Astute]

Then tell me how he should have done it differently?

He should have got off the fence he is still sitting on. His long term thoughts were we should leave the EU. Not what remainers want to hear. He now says remain. Not what leavers want to hear. So not what anyone wants. He needs to come out with it loud and clear. If he would have beat the Lib Dems to declaring staying in the EU was a top priority Labour would have gained the remain vote. But the Lib Dems have come from nowhere to their best level for many years. But Corbyn didn't want to risk upsetting the Leave voters that are normally Labour voters.

 

[Ian1779]

He should have got off the fence he is still sitting on. His long term thoughts were we should leave the EU. Not what remainers want to hear. He now says remain. Not what leavers want to hear. So not what anyone wants. He needs to come out with it loud and clear. If he would have beat the Lib Dems to declaring staying in the EU was a top priority Labour would have gained the remain vote. But the Lib Dems have come from nowhere to their best level for many years. But Corbyn didn't want to risk upsetting the Leave voters that are normally Labour voters.

And yet you know that if he does that they will probably lose their Northern Leave Seats - for what? Even bigger majorities in safe London seats, or splitting the vote in Lib/Con marginals to hand more of them to Boris?

You know there is no way for Labour to kick out the Tories if they went full tilt remain - so I’ll ask again, what was he supposed to do differently?

 

[CCFCSteve]

Isn't it literally what happened?

As in to ‘force through No Deal’ ?

Do you really believe that, many don’t, including me.

I’ve then explained that even if that had been his plan (which I don’t think it is), the steps taken make it difficult/impossible thereby the proroguing would be irrelevant.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Then tell me how he should have done it differently?

He was pushing for an election when there was no public appetite for one and even now is after an election when he's massively down in the polls and his approval ratings are at the lowest I can remember even among Labour voters. Instead he has gifted free votes to the Lib Dems and to Farage's mob by failing to nail the party's colours to a given mast.

I don't take any pleasure in saying the above, Brexit has fucked Labour the most because of how evenly split its voter base is on the issue. But he has played it so, so badly.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

As in to ‘force through No Deal’ ?

Do you really believe that, many don’t, including me.

I’ve then explained that even if that had been his plan (which I don’t think it is), the steps taken make it difficult/impossible thereby the proroguing would be irrelevant.

Former members of his cabinet seemed to believe it Steve, along with the two dozen MPs he's kicked out since he came in. The ramping up in No Deal preparations would seem to suggest that also. It was quite simple-deny Parliament as much time as possible so it couldn't continue to obstruct his efforts.

Pork pies all round?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

He should have got off the fence he is still sitting on. His long term thoughts were we should leave the EU. Not what remainers want to hear. He now says remain. Not what leavers want to hear. So not what anyone wants. He needs to come out with it loud and clear. If he would have beat the Lib Dems to declaring staying in the EU was a top priority Labour would have gained the remain vote. But the Lib Dems have come from nowhere to their best level for many years. But Corbyn didn't want to risk upsetting the Leave voters that are normally Labour voters.

A shame that the Lib Dems who for years just took the half way position by default have decided to actually stick to an issue

 

[Astute]

And yet you know that if he does that they will probably lose their Northern Leave Seats - for what? Even bigger majorities in safe London seats, or splitting the vote in Lib/Con marginals to hand more of them to Boris?

You know there is no way for Labour to kick out the Tories if they went full tilt remain - so I’ll ask again, what was he supposed to do differently?

So are you saying that it is best he looks a blithering Idiot who says what he doesn't mean and can't make his mind up.which way he should go? He started off by saying that the result of the referendum should be respected and implemented. These days you have to check the news to see what his latest stance on the subject is.

Are you saying this is a better plan? Because he is losing voters that want to know who to vote for. This is why he is running scared of a GE.

 

[Astute]

Former members of his cabinet seemed to believe it Steve, along with the two dozen MPs he's kicked out since he came in. The ramping up in No Deal preparations would seem to suggest that also. It was quite simple-deny Parliament as much time as possible so it couldn't continue to obstruct his efforts.

Pork pies all round?

It is a dangerous game to play. But a game he could go back on if needed. Just like the EU and their no negotiating stand. Take it all the way to the wire then finally negotiate if needed. But they most probably won't need to as parliament has made it easy for them.

 

[Astute]

A shame that the Lib Dems who for years just took the half way position by default have decided to actually stick to an issue

It just shows he should have done something. They have taken both Labour and Tory votes. If he would have beat them to.it he would have kept a lot of voters he has lost and gained from the Tories.

If it is true what some make out and remain would win another referendum he would have been backing the winning side. Labour voters are as hardy as the Tory voters. They will be back once thos fiasco is over. But not for a leader who is so undecisive.

 

[Astute]

And one point I would like answering.

It has been seen as a loaded question with the polls. Vote for Corbyn as PM or leave without a deal. There is a majority for a no deal. So no questions like this should be allowed. But the same people think that loaded questions should be allowed as in the type of Brexit v a no deal or type of Brexit v remain. Why?

 

[Sick Boy]

And one point I would like answering.

It has been seen as a loaded question with the polls. Vote for Corbyn as PM or leave without a deal. There is a majority for a no deal. So no questions like this should be allowed. But the same people think that loaded questions should be allowed as in the type of Brexit v a no deal or type of Brexit v remain. Why?

ahh yes because polls have been shown to be accurate in recent history.

who are these people and what question have they asked for?

 

[Astute]

ahh yes because polls have been shown to be accurate in recent history.

who are these people and what question have they asked for?

Is it glasses or a memory that you are in need of?

So I suppose nobody has mentioned we should have a referendum on which type of leave against just remain or that nobody was told the details on how we would leave? Not even yourself?

Of course not. So here starts the next shitfest. Then I prove the point. Then you go quiet on the subject or come out with some sort of comment about me. The story of this thread so far

 

[Sick Boy]

Is it glasses or a memory that you are in need of?

So I suppose nobody has mentioned we should have a referendum on which type of leave against just remain or that nobody was told the details on how we would leave? Not even yourself?

Of course not. So here starts the next shitfest. Then I prove the point. Then you go quiet on the subject or come out with some sort of comment about me. The story of this thread so far

I will ask again, who are these people on this thread and what question(s) have they asked for?

 

[shmmeee]

Slightly more dramatic than the reality ! Due to the recently passed law and the time available between the EU summit and 31 Oct, I’m not convinced the proroguing wouldve done much other than avoid some of the noise (which is why I think it was a waste of political capital - very little to gain from it)

I suspect it’s all been part of the electioneering TBH. I’m not convinced Cummings is the evil genius he’s made out to be, but I do think he’d have seen this coming. I think he wants to “trigger the libs” as much as possible ahead of an election, they want either a deal passed or a VoNC before Oct 31st. I think the not sending tellers trick was intentional so the deal vote would happen without it being pinned on them for bringing it back again.

Frankly though it’s like working out Sisus plans. God knows what they’re really up to.

 

[Astute]

I will ask again, who are these people on this thread and what question(s) have they asked for?

Like I also said would you like to start yet another shitfest off then disappear as usual? You know who has said they are for a referendum but not just leave or remain again.

 

[shmmeee]

So are you saying that it is best he looks a blithering Idiot who says what he doesn't mean and can't make his mind up.which way he should go? He started off by saying that the result of the referendum should be respected and implemented. These days you have to check the news to see what his latest stance on the subject is.

Are you saying this is a better plan? Because he is losing voters that want to know who to vote for. This is why he is running scared of a GE.

Come on Astute. No one is running from a GE at all. That’s pure Tory propaganda and I’m surprised to see you parroting it. There will be a GE once the Oct 31st deadline is resolved one way or another.

 

[Astute]

I suspect it’s all been part of the electioneering TBH. I’m not convinced Cummings is the evil genius he’s made out to be, but I do think he’d have seen this coming. I think he wants to “trigger the libs” as much as possible ahead of an election, they want either a deal passed or a VoNC before Oct 31st. I think the not sending tellers trick was intentional so the deal vote would happen without it being pinned on them for bringing it back again.

Frankly though it’s like working out Sisus plans. God knows what they’re really up to.

None of them are easy to work out. Boris was one of not many who wanted the May agreement to go through. So is that what he is really after? Seems to me like he is but with changes to Ireland.

 

[Astute]

Come on Astute. No one is running from a GE at all. That’s pure Tory propaganda and I’m surprised to see you parroting it. There will be a GE once the Oct 31st deadline is resolved one way or another.

Is that right?

Tory propaganda? Have a word with yourself. I take no notice of propaganda. But I do take notice of what leaders and MP's are doing. Labour are at their lowest for ages. Why would Corbyn want a GE? With the Lib Dems being remain and the Tories leave there is a good chance Labour would be down to their hardcore support. And many of these would go for the other two. But if Labour then came out as remain the vote would be shared with the Lib Dems. This would let the Tories in.

Which part of this is incorrect?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Is that right?

Tory propaganda? Have a word with yourself. I take no notice of propaganda. But I do take notice of what leaders and MP's are doing. Labour are at their lowest for ages. Why would Corbyn want a GE? With the Lib Dems being remain and the Tories leave there is a good chance Labour would be down to their hardcore support. And many of these would go for the other two. But if Labour then came out as remain the vote would be shared with the Lib Dems. This would let the Tories in.

Which part of this is incorrect?

The other question is why *does* he want one when he must be capable of reading the polls?

 

[skybluetony176]

Who could have foreseen this

No 10 denies Johnson 'thigh squeeze' claim

 

[Deleted member 5849]

The other question is why *does* he want one when he must be capable of reading the polls?

Politically (especially as he probably isn't averse to a hard Brexit - a chance for nationalising industries, increasing income and inheritance tax while reducing VAT etc.) it'd seem wise to let Johnson make whatever mess he's set to make of Brexit. Let him get to 31st and cause chaos by allowing us to leave, or he has a humiliating climbdown which makes him look a fraud. The gamble is he somehow comes up with an acceptable deal, but then there's two years left before an election is due to let him implement it and show he can't do that.

 

[Sick Boy]

Like I also said would you like to start yet another shitfest off then disappear as usual? You know who has said they are for a referendum but not just leave or remain again.

I don’t, actually. I’ve no idea on who wants to ask ‘loaded’ questions either, hence why I asked you.

 

[Astute]

Politically (especially as he probably isn't averse to a hard Brexit - a chance for nationalising industries, increasing income and inheritance tax while reducing VAT etc.) it'd seem wise to let Johnson make whatever mess he's set to make of Brexit. Let him get to 31st and cause chaos by allowing us to leave, or he has a humiliating climbdown which makes him look a fraud. The gamble is he somehow comes up with an acceptable deal, but then there's two years left before an election is due to let him implement it and show he can't do that.

So why wouldn't he be able to implement an acceptable deal?

 

[Astute]

I don’t, actually. I’ve no idea on who wants to ask ‘loaded’ questions either, hence why I asked you.

You won't. Because you always agree with them even when you don't agree with what they are saying. For instance you agreed with a post saying May did an amazing job. But when I asked you if you thought she had done an amazing job you said she didn't.

 

[djr8369]

And one point I would like answering.

It has been seen as a loaded question with the polls. Vote for Corbyn as PM or leave without a deal. There is a majority for a no deal. So no questions like this should be allowed. But the same people think that loaded questions should be allowed as in the type of Brexit v a no deal or type of Brexit v remain. Why?

Well for a start a choice between no deal and a Corbyn government isn’t a real option but a choice between remain and a Brexit option is a possible choice. It’s comparing different things and as such complete nonsense.


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[djr8369]

I will ask again, who are these people on this thread and what question(s) have they asked for?

Don’t worry he’s just starting an argument with himself so he can later claim to have been right.


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