Some good news (11 Viewers)

[chiefdave]

I don't get why the bonds keep dropping. Aren't you supposed to be guaranteed the promised interest and your original investment back at the end? Why would people sell so low unless they think there's a serious risk of Wasps going bust?

 

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[rob9872]

Fair questions, bond will just be paid through refinancing, results will improve as there is a good crop of youngsters coming through but this squad will improve as the season goes on, as I said could be anywhere from 5th to 9th, attendances will fluctuate inline with results. its also cheaper to prop up a rugby club than a football club, quite a bit of that question could also asked off CCFC, low attendances, higher rent against lower income, good results to be fair but how long can they sustain this?

Indefinitely. Gap will be bridged by selling talent. They did it in the top flight for as long as I can remember and it's arguably easier to find young talent to play and sell for profit at our level. Not great and will invariably be disappointing, but buying youth to then improve and sell on has been the model.

 

[fernandopartridge]

Bonds taking another hammering today. Down almost 4% at the moment.

Yeah, I saw that, 28% drop in the last 6 months. Yes it doesn't affect Wasps day to day but not a mention in the CT.

 

[Skyblueweeman]

Yeah, I saw that, 28% drop in the last 6 months. Yes it doesn't affect Wasps day to day but not a mention in the CT.

Question from the uneducated (me). Am I right in thinking that the reason it doesn't affect the day to day, is that Franchised RFC have to pay back £32m (or whatever the bond sale achieved) regardless of how they do on the pitch or regardless of how the bonds perform?

I've never bought/dealt/needed to know about bonds so genuinely have no clue about them.

 

[peaches and cream]

Indefinitely. Gap will be bridged by selling talent. They did it in the top flight for as long as I can remember and it's arguably easier to find young talent to play and sell for profit at our level. Not great and will invariably be disappointing, but buying youth to then improve and sell on has been the model.

Does anybody actually know what the financial difference is between last seasons income and projected income for this season

 

[Nick]

Does anybody actually know what the financial difference is between last seasons income and projected income for this season

Guess it depends if the books are going to be fiddled.

 

[rob9872]

Does anybody actually know what the financial difference is between last seasons income and projected income for this season

Avg attendance is approx. 6k down, avg price taking account of concessions, season tickets, kids etc I assume approx. £13 x23 games = £1.8m. Less costs overall than Ricoh (was cheap rent but smaller slice F&B etc) probably tops out at £2m shortfall - or if undisclosed is led to be right - Tom Bayliss this season Sam McCallum next season.

 

[GaryMabbuttsLeftKnee]

Avg attendance is approx. 6k down, avg price taking account of concessions, season tickets, kids etc I assume approx. £13 x23 games = £1.8m. Less costs overall than Ricoh (was cheap rent but smaller slice F&B etc) probably tops out at £2m shortfall - or if undisclosed is led to be right - Tom Bayliss this season Sam McCallum next season.

Obviously won't equate for all of that plus it won't be including the Wembley/FA Cup trips of two seasons ago, but I would have thought the success of all three kits has helped bridge *some* of that gap. Will probably be a fraction but undoubtedly shirt sales figures will be massively up.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Question from the uneducated (me). Am I right in thinking that the reason it doesn't affect the day to day, is that Franchised RFC have to pay back £32m (or whatever the bond sale achieved) regardless of how they do on the pitch or regardless of how the bonds perform?

I've never bought/dealt/needed to know about bonds so genuinely have no clue about them.

Every 6 months they have to pay 6.5% interest and will then have to pay back the initial sum, which is secured on the ground. You can see some of the more recent trades here:

https://www.hl.co.uk/shares/shares-search-results/w/wasps-finance-6.5-2022

 

[Nick]

Wasps 22 Chat - WAS1 | ADVFN

Spot people trying too hard on there.

 

[rob9872]

Obviously won't equate for all of that plus it won't be including the Wembley/FA Cup trips of two seasons ago, but I would have thought the success of all three kits has helped bridge *some* of that gap. Will probably be a fraction but undoubtedly shirt sales figures will be massively up.

Absolutely. And it's difficult to argue the manager hasn't been backed either, but I think they're working on a breakeven position for all footballing and non-football revenue/expenses. Therefore whatever we generate we use, but equally any loss made up by player sales. Whilst we have a production line we can sustain it, but with another £2m, we might have been shopping for different targets. I'm only guessing of course, but that's how I see it.

 

[Nick]

Every 6 months they have to pay 6.5% interest and will then have to pay back the initial sum, which is secured on the ground. You can see some of the more recent trades here:

https://www.hl.co.uk/shares/shares-search-results/w/wasps-finance-6.5-2022

Fair bit of selling today. 75,000 of them.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Fair bit of selling today. 75,000 of them.

Must admit I don't understand the fire sales going on if you didn't have major concerns about the club not making it through to repayment and the stadium not being sufficient leverage.

 

[peaches and cream]

Avg attendance is approx. 6k down, avg price taking account of concessions, season tickets, kids etc I assume approx. £13 x23 games = £1.8m. Less costs overall than Ricoh (was cheap rent but smaller slice F&B etc) probably tops out at £2m shortfall - or if undisclosed is led to be right - Tom Bayliss this season Sam McCallum next season.

So as long as you make one decent sale a season your all good? are player sales included in FFP or will that effect what can be spent next season?

 

[cc84cov]

So as long as you make one decent sale a season your all good? are player sales included in FFP or will that effect what can be spent next season?

We’ve been doing it for years mate personally I think wasps will break before us,heard a rumour wasps had vodaphone lined up for the naming rights but pulled out as ccfc wasn’t there not sure on how true that is,if the EU commission rules you got the ground cheap I think that will be close to finishing wasps as far as being in Coventry goes

 

[peaches and cream]

if the EU rules against the council and Wasps have to pay up 30 million or whatever the figure is that will bankrupt them no doubt, not sure how it works but i'm pretty sure the legals will then move to Wasps trying to claim that money off somebody as they will claim they paid the asking price which they were not responsible for setting. apart from that i don't think there is much of a chance of wasps going bust.

 

[cc84cov]

if the EU rules against the council and Wasps have to pay up 30 million or whatever the figure is that will bankrupt them no doubt, not sure how it works but i'm pretty sure the legals will then move to Wasps trying to claim that money off somebody as they will claim they paid the asking price which they were not responsible for setting. apart from that i don't think there is much of a chance of wasps going bust.

So basically wasps will try sue cov council...

I would very much enjoy the 2 of them battling away

 

[CCFC54321]

Fair questions, bond will just be paid through refinancing, results will improve as there is a good crop of youngsters coming through but this squad will improve as the season goes on, as I said could be anywhere from 5th to 9th, attendances will fluctuate inline with results. its also cheaper to prop up a rugby club than a football club, quite a bit of that question could also asked off CCFC, low attendances, higher rent against lower income, good results to be fair but how long can they sustain this?

You say the squad will improve but will the results? You can’t keep losing your best players and live in hope that things will improve. Your heading for relegation and an attitude such as the one displayed could be called arrogance.

 

[Grendel]

if the EU rules against the council and Wasps have to pay up 30 million or whatever the figure is that will bankrupt them no doubt, not sure how it works but i'm pretty sure the legals will then move to Wasps trying to claim that money off somebody as they will claim they paid the asking price which they were not responsible for setting. apart from that i don't think there is much of a chance of wasps going bust.

The project has failed whatever way you spin it and I see no possibility of any recovery

The balance sheet will be more positive due to the sponsorship money but it’s more short termism and requires a re-payment.

The club is losing money and being at the Ricoh is giving no commercial benefit. The club would have been better at Wycombe. It’s looking very embarrassing - it will not go out of business but it’s a commercial basket case and there’s no hope in hell you will stay here as you can’t afford it

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

The project has failed whatever way you spin it and I see no possibility of any recovery

The balance sheet will be more positive due to the sponsorship money but it’s more short termism and requires a re-payment.

The club is losing money and being at the Ricoh is giving no commercial benefit. The club would have been better at Wycombe. It’s looking very embarrassing - it will not go out of business but it’s a commercial basket case and there’s no hope in hell you will stay here as you can’t afford it

Is the Ricoh itself doomed to failure?

 

[Fergusons_Beard]

What hasn't come to light is how much they got in selling off the land at Whitley that they purchased from Severn Trent which backed onto the Higgs centre. I believe that's now in a developers hands.

If this is true-fucking hell its a fucking scandal!


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[BackRoomRummermill]

Is the Ricoh itself doomed to failure?

no because they have the midlands fly fishing convention and mystic meg supporters club always booked

 

[fernandopartridge]

Is the Ricoh itself doomed to failure?

Until it pays down the latest iteration of its mortgage yes. It went from a steady fixed rate loan to a high interest only deal. How on earth did the council allow that to happen?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

no because they have the midlands fly fishing convention and mystic meg supporters club always booked

Don't forget Netball Super League

 

[BackRoomRummermill]

Don't forget Netball Super League

yep forgot that , apparently if it’s successful they will expand it to the U14’s

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

yep forgot that , apparently if it’s successful they will expand it to the U14’s

Would be nice to enter an SBT side, mainly to see G in a skirt but could be fun

 

[Liquid Gold]

The Ricoh will only work without debt attached. Some of us have been saying it for ages. The council's desire to make some cash followed by Wasps needing it to fund their gamble has held it, and the city, back.

 

[ccfc1234]

Is the Ricoh itself doomed to failure?

Not if we promote and can pack it with 18k fans every other week.
Like it is, only a matter of time.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Not if we promote and can pack it with 18k fans every other week.
Like it is, only a matter of time.

Packing it=just over half full?

 

[ccfc1234]

Packing it=just over half full?

An average attendance of 18k would mean some packed weeks. Some games we might get 14k Barnsley on a Tuesday night as an example but Birmingham at home, West Brom etc I could see 25k +

18k was a guess in truth hope we could get more. Aside from this if we did still open 3 stands only 18k would feel like be a packed/condensed crowd.

In truth my point was wider about the Ricoh not being viable. In my view it is and the issues it has are the owners and the lack of a successful football team located there.

 

[Astute]

I don't get why the bonds keep dropping. Aren't you supposed to be guaranteed the promised interest and your original investment back at the end? Why would people sell so low unless they think there's a serious risk of Wasps going bust?

The bonds will go up and down depending on how healthy Wasps look and what the chances are of getting it paid off at the end. It was paying a high dividend. But the stake is at risk. Yes the full amount will be due at the end. But if it looks like it could fail the price will drop. And they don't look that healthy.

 

[chiefdave]

The bonds will go up and down depending on how healthy Wasps look and what the chances are of getting it paid off at the end. It was paying a high dividend. But the stake is at risk. Yes the full amount will be due at the end. But if it looks like it could fail the price will drop. And they don't look that healthy.

I get that but for it to fall so low surely there must be serious doubts about Wasps ability to pay back the bonds and the security (the Ricoh) to cover the debt. Its got to be more than they've lost a couple of games or showed losses in the accounts.

We keep being told that, despite what we see in the accounts, their finances are OK. If that's the case why would anyone give up 30% of their initial investment unless they are seriously concerned that Wasps won't be able to pay it back.

 

[MusicDating]

I get that but for it to fall so low surely there must be serious doubts about Wasps ability to pay back the bonds and the security (the Ricoh) to cover the debt. Its got to be more than they've lost a couple of games or showed losses in the accounts.

We keep being told that, despite what we see in the accounts, their finances are OK. If that's the case why would anyone give up 30% of their initial investment unless they are seriously concerned that Wasps won't be able to pay it back.

Yup, surely people would otherwise be piling in to make nearly a 50% profit in less than 3 years (is that right? 30% on the difference between purchase price and settlement price and 3 x 6.5% interest?).

 

[Travs]

An average attendance of 18k would mean some packed weeks. Some games we might get 14k Barnsley on a Tuesday night as an example but Birmingham at home, West Brom etc I could see 25k +

18k was a guess in truth hope we could get more. Aside from this if we did still open 3 stands only 18k would feel like be a packed/condensed crowd.

In truth my point was wider about the Ricoh not being viable. In my view it is and the issues it has are the owners and the lack of a successful football team located there.

perhaps we could achieve those sort of crowds if we are on an upward curve... but in the championship we rarely got 25k against the likes of Leeds and Sheffield United when they were bringing 5k+ away fans... just can’t see it myself...

 

[Astute]

I get that but for it to fall so low surely there must be serious doubts about Wasps ability to pay back the bonds and the security (the Ricoh) to cover the debt. Its got to be more than they've lost a couple of games or showed losses in the accounts.

We keep being told that, despite what we see in the accounts, their finances are OK. If that's the case why would anyone give up 30% of their initial investment unless they are seriously concerned that Wasps won't be able to pay it back.

Like I said the main reason is worry that the original investment isn't returned at the end of the term.

Could SISU have a point and chance of winning the court case? Are Wasps finances looking bad? Is there a problem with how the bonds were raised as it is being looked into?

A lot of us agreed that it wouldn't be easy to pay over 2m a year in interest and still owe the same amount. Now the problems are mounting up.

We don't know the full truth yet but some are selling up and taking a 30% hit on their investments. They will be seasoned investors who know what they are doing.