SkyBlueDom26
Well-Known Member
But it’s true though?
General Election 2019 thread (22 Viewers)
- Thread starter Philosoraptor
- Start date
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
That’s a bit of an oversimplification. What brand of democracy?
I think if you’re banging on about stuff from hundreds of years ago it’s probably not that relevant in the 21st century TBH. Life’s a little more complex than that.
Still not really what I asked for anyway, which is the wonky working out behind it not the populist rhetoric at the front.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Democracy is two wolves and sheep voting on what’s for dinner.
Democracy is the worst method of government apart from all the others.
We aren’t writing bumper stickers here, it’s a little more nuanced than “democracy good”.
Astute
Well-Known Member
But are.you happy about anyone putting your children's generation seriously in debt? Because you don't seem to have a problem with it.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
By your logic we never should’ve had the second referendum as we voted on it in the 70s. Now you’ll come out with a load of reasons why circumstances have changed and so will I from the last three years and oh look it’s not that fucking simple.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Were you happy with your parents putting you into debt?
You do realise if the public sector doesn’t run a deficit the private sector has to don’t you?
Probably not, you probably think the Workd Bank will send bailiffs round to take the Crown Jewels or something.
Astute
Well-Known Member
My parents? What are you going on about? It was a Labour government
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
My parents? What are you going on about? It was a Labour government
The U.K. has been in debt forever, your parents “passed on debt to their children”, how did it effect you? And no, there was not a Labour government every year since the Napoleonic War.
Debt per se isn’t bad. You have probably used it yourself to say buy a house, knowing that the rise in value of the house will outweigh the costs of borrowing. Or maybe you’ve bought a car on credit knowing it widen the search area for your job and increases your earnings by more than it costs to make the repayments.
Of course what you don’t want to do is leave debt when you die and can’t pay it off. Except countries don’t die, or rather when they do the level of national debt is the last of their worries.
Does that mean we can borrow infinite money? Of course not. We have to be confident that it will either grow our GDP enough to cover the borrowing costs, or that inflation will be higher than the interest rate so it’s value drops.
Governments also are different from people in that when they spend money, it tends to come back in the form of taxes. Pay for 5,000 nurses and take IT and NI from their wages, then VAT on their purchases. Buy some steel from a U.K. firm and the money goes on jobs that pay tax. Whereas when you spend money it’s gone and never to return.
This is all before we talk about the fact that the government invents money out of air, it literally does have a magic money tree called the mint. Like a MMT it has limitations and will cause inflation if overused but it does exist.
Taking about government budgeting like it was personal finance is utter utter nonsense.
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
There really is no such thing as individual debt from state spending, so that hysterical Daily Mail drivel about children being in debt is nonsense.
BTW, if it was true every member of public has been in serious debt since 1692. We've survived somehow and the economically prudent Tories have increased national debt by nearly a trillion pounds in 9 years again without mass bankruptcy amongst adults or children.
Ian1779
Well-Known Member
I think I’d take a bit of national debt over my children (and their children) living through an ecological crisis because the climate is fucked.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
This as well. We are facing a bigger threat than WW2, would these debt worriers have let Hitler win because they didn’t want to leave their children (in this case and grandchildren) in debt?
Philosoraptor
Well-Known Member
Populist: by this I guess you are meaning the majority view?
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
You guess wrong. Read the sentence again. I’m talking about the rationale not the result.
Philosoraptor
Well-Known Member
I'm sorry but the Government you elected can't take it seat in Parliament because its a populist view.
I don't understand the connotations you are making that a populist decision is bad.
Usually I would put forward any decision made by a populist party within Government, as long as it abides by putting their ideas through a Utilitarian framework and not fringing on anyone's Individuals Rights would be the way to go.
Infact this is how the European Union come to decide laws etc.
You're saying this is not good?
I don't understand the connotations you are making that a populist decision is bad.
Usually I would put forward any decision made by a populist party within Government, as long as it abides by putting their ideas through a Utilitarian framework and not fringing on anyone's Individuals Rights would be the way to go.
Infact this is how the European Union come to decide laws etc.
You're saying this is not good?
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Great for him.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
It’s a bit late for that. They already are and the debt has only grown since the last labour government. Austerity failed, simple as.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Maybe populist is the wrong word.
Content free bombast?
Touchy feely crap?
I dunno. All this “freedom” bollocks and referencing long past history and wars and all that. It’s lovely but it’s not a rational working out of what’s going to happen.
You seem to have come into a conversation thread halfway through and got the wrong end of the stick. This started by me saying other than Brexit there’s usually working out of benefits behind policy decisions and not just “vanity”.
It’s got nothing to do with the result
Johnnythespider
Well-Known Member
Take a look at page 50 of the tory manifesto, I'm not sure they are
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Depends which side of the border you are
Astute
Well-Known Member
Me missing the point? You are missing the point on purpose as usual.
The U.K. has been in debt forever, your parents “passed on debt to their children”, how did it effect you? And no, there was not a Labour government every year since the Napoleonic War.
Debt per se isn’t bad. You have probably used it yourself to say buy a house, knowing that the rise in value of the house will outweigh the costs of borrowing. Or maybe you’ve bought a car on credit knowing it widen the search area for your job and increases your earnings by more than it costs to make the repayments.
Of course what you don’t want to do is leave debt when you die and can’t pay it off. Except countries don’t die, or rather when they do the level of national debt is the last of their worries.
Does that mean we can borrow infinite money? Of course not. We have to be confident that it will either grow our GDP enough to cover the borrowing costs, or that inflation will be higher than the interest rate so it’s value drops.
Governments also are different from people in that when they spend money, it tends to come back in the form of taxes. Pay for 5,000 nurses and take IT and NI from their wages, then VAT on their purchases. Buy some steel from a U.K. firm and the money goes on jobs that pay tax. Whereas when you spend money it’s gone and never to return.
This is all before we talk about the fact that the government invents money out of air, it literally does have a magic money tree called the mint. Like a MMT it has limitations and will cause inflation if overused but it does exist.
Taking about government budgeting like it was personal finance is utter utter nonsense.
Astute
Well-Known Member
Individual debt? Where did you get that from? How unusual.
Astute
Well-Known Member
A bit of national debt? Are you in denial on how much debt they want to put the UK in?
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Did you just look at the pictures?
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Do you have any idea what the costs of global warming will be?
Alan Dugdales Moustache
Well-Known Member
Absolutely . Usually it leaves a bad taste but they get on with life. On some occasions they moan on and on and on. Then they blame the other side for being thick.
Philosoraptor
Well-Known Member
The decision made by the Public in the EU referendum was not made on economical grounds but was largely about statehood.
It's as simple as that.
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Alan Dugdales Moustache
Well-Known Member
Of course he does . We all do. But you're dying to bore us all to death so go on, get it over with.
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
Lol
Astute
Well-Known Member
Will the near 40 billion plus hundreds of millions a year to give everyone free internet stop global warming?
Astute
Well-Known Member
No. Have had enough of the propaganda on here. You say Corbyn and Labour are not defended on here. But all you have to do is look at the posts.
You agree that Corbyn is the wrong person to lead Labour yet defend everything he does.
Astute
Well-Known Member
Exactly. LOL is all you can say when shown to be saying something that isn't true. But nothing unusual is it.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
You have no idea of how the free internet policy will work or that it’s more than everyone simply stops paying for internet access, do you?
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
You said that Labour would put our children in debt. Was that what you meant or not?
I love this complex you've got that you're always right and it's just everybody else defining fact incorrectly.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Oh. And just so you know a lot of the money had already been pledged by the sitting government £5bn for full fibre - does it add up?