London Bridge (3 Viewers)

[Otis]

None of those executed ever repeated their crimes.

And none of those executed, who were entirely innocent, ever repeated crimes they never carried out in the first place.

 

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[Astute]

You can't say he is a hero, but then find out after that he had murdered someone previously and then say he is now not a hero. He still carried out the same act.

Correct. He still slit the throat of a defenceless 21 year old woman with learning difficulties and still hasn't said why.

 

[Astute]

And none of those executed, who were entirely innocent, ever repeated crimes they never carried out in the first place.

To me those without any doubt at all should be considered to be euthanized. Like this terrorist if he hadn't been shot. Then he can't radicalise anyone in prison and there wouldn't be a doogooder that wants him released so he could do it again.

They are twisted in the head to go out and murder innocent people. They need taking off the streets to make the public safe. Chatting to them in prison won't make them safe to be released.

And let every other premeditated murderer rot in prison. No luxuries.

And while we are at it take luxuries away from prisoners. No Xbox or PlayStation. A TV with the Christian channel or similar only. Make them bored. Make them never wanting to go back. I know a couple that have enjoyed it so much they don't mind too much going back inside. 3 meals a day and roof over their heads. And a laugh with the lads.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

I’ve already stated I’d have executed the Bulger murderers - who wouldn’t?

They weren’t even at the age of criminal responsibility

wow

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Without wanting to trivialise the deaths of two people (plus a terrorist), it’s a fascinating moral quandary. Two people out on release, an immigrant, a guy who dedicated his life to rehabilitation.

How much do we owe to the legacy of the victim? How does our attitudes to day release and immigration change with pulls from both sides? Can one heroic act change the past horrific act?

I think at some point you’ve got to throw your hands up and claim the wonder and complexity of humanity. And it should be a warning against black and white thinking.

My opinion well articulated. We’ll never all agree and that’s ok. The ability to discuss and listen without resorting to insult and violence is precious

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

To me those without any doubt at all should be considered to be euthanized. Like this terrorist if he hadn't been shot. Then he can't radicalise anyone in prison and there wouldn't be a doogooder that wants him released so he could do it again.

They are twisted in the head to go out and murder innocent people. They need taking off the streets to make the public safe. Chatting to them in prison won't make them safe to be released.

And let every other premeditated murderer rot in prison. No luxuries.

And while we are at it take luxuries away from prisoners. No Xbox or PlayStation. A TV with the Christian channel or similar only. Make them bored. Make them never wanting to go back. I know a couple that have enjoyed it so much they don't mind too much going back inside. 3 meals a day and roof over their heads. And a laugh with the lads.

Have you seen the inside of a prison. It wouldn’t work it wouldn’t be manageable. Also we believe and the victim absolutely believed in rehabilitation

Prison is awful just awful. I’m sure it’s different if you’re a career criminal or addicted to something but it’s just awful

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

None of those executed ever repeated their crimes.

What if they didn’t commit one in the first place?

 

[Grendel]

And none of those executed, who were entirely innocent, ever repeated crimes they never carried out in the first place.

Never would happen now in specific crimes

 

[Grendel]

They weren’t even at the age of criminal responsibility

wow

They have cost millions of pounds

I personally think it’s a curious society that has attempted to enhance people’s lives purely when they have committed acts of gross violence

would you have liked to find out one day the odd chap next door looking at your children playing in the garden was not Mr Smith but Mr Venables and crucially do you think you’d have a right to know?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Never would happen now in specific crimes

I would agree that for brutal or mass murders carried out with zero hint of a doubt there should be no mercy. But we know that not every case is cut and dry like that.

 

[Otis]

I would agree that for brutal or mass murders carried out with zero hint of a doubt there should be no mercy. But we know that not every case is cut and dry like that.

Nope. Like you say, so often it is not just black and white.

 

[Otis]

They have cost millions of pounds

I personally think it’s a curious society that has attempted to enhance people’s lives purely when they have committed acts of gross violence

would you have liked to find out one day the odd chap next door looking at your children playing in the garden was not Mr Smith but Mr Venables and crucially do you think you’d have a right to know?

So, do you have a minimum age? The Bulger killers were 10. When would it be unacceptable, 9? 8? 7? 6? 5? A toddler?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

So, do you have a minimum age? The Bulger killers were 10. When would it be unacceptable, 9? 8? 7? 6? 5? A toddler?

The last verifiable execution of someone 10 or younger was in the 1600s. Mind you this was a time with much shorter life expectancy and the death sentence could be applied for far more than just murder. Even in the 19th century we didn’t execute anyone below 14 because usually the judge issued a reprieve or public outcry prevented it.

 

[skybluetony176]

There seems to be a laughable idea that the death penalty would save us millions. The appeal process for the death penalties in America costs millions per case, often more than the cost of locking them up for life.

 

[Otis]

There seems to be a laughable idea that the death penalty would save us millions. The appeal process for the death penalties in America costs millions per case, often more than the cost of locking them up for life.

True. I would assume the amount of appeals would sky rocket.

 

[shmmeee]

Relevant Twitter thread from someone who worked with one of the victims:

this bit in particular should give people pause for thought:

 

[Johnnythespider]

There seems to be a laughable idea that the death penalty would save us millions. The appeal process for the death penalties in America costs millions per case, often more than the cost of locking them up for life.

My preferred option would be to lock them up for life, meaning life, there are some crimes that warrant a person never being free or even to be considered for parole, i would include in these both plotting a terrorist attack and murder, thus the attack on Friday would not have taken place and the Family of a young disabled woman who had her life taken wouldn't have to listen to the world praising her killer. I could never support the death penalty, it would be a backwards step in our society, having said that backward steps seems to be the norm these days.

 

[Astute]

Have you seen the inside of a prison. It wouldn’t work it wouldn’t be manageable. Also we believe and the victim absolutely believed in rehabilitation

Prison is awful just awful. I’m sure it’s different if you’re a career criminal or addicted to something but it’s just awful

The whole system needs to change. The screws need to be respected again. We need new up to date prisons. The whole term of the sentence served if you do anything wrong. And more time each time something else is done. Those in prison (I know, not all) need to learn respect.

Prison isn't nice. But it can be fun for some. Everyone has a different idea of what fun is.

Rehabilitation? Works for some but not most.

 

[Astute]

O

I would agree that for brutal or mass murders carried out with zero hint of a doubt there should be no mercy. But we know that not every case is cut and dry like that.

So they should all be treated the same?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

O

So they should all be treated the same?

I didn’t say that. I just want a cast iron certainty that no innocent people will be killed by the state.

 

[chiefdave]

My preferred option would be to lock them up for life, meaning life, there are some crimes that warrant a person never being free or even to be considered for parole, i would include in these both plotting a terrorist attack and murder, thus the attack on Friday would not have taken place and the Family of a young disabled woman who had her life taken wouldn't have to listen to the world praising her killer. I could never support the death penalty, it would be a backwards step in our society, having said that backward steps seems to be the norm these days.

We had that, it was called Imprisonment for Public Protection and was introduced in as part of the 2003 Criminal Justice Act. They were abolished in 2012.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

They have cost millions of pounds

I personally think it’s a curious society that has attempted to enhance people’s lives purely when they have committed acts of gross violence

would you have liked to find out one day the odd chap next door looking at your children playing in the garden was not Mr Smith but Mr Venables and crucially do you think you’d have a right to know?

More curious to want to kill 10 year old children

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

The whole system needs to change. The screws need to be respected again. We need new up to date prisons. The whole term of the sentence served if you do anything wrong. And more time each time something else is done. Those in prison (I know, not all) need to learn respect.

Prison isn't nice. But it can be fun for some. Everyone has a different idea of what fun is.

Rehabilitation? Works for some but not most.

The recidivism rate may be different than you think. For some it’s not high at all. Evidence is key here!! I’ve been surprised that everyone assumes 100% of criminals are going to commit crime again and they don’t. Neither is it 0% I absolutely accept

 

[chiefdave]

Just to make sure I've got this right are we saying:

16 year olds getting the vote - unacceptable

10 year olds being executed by the state - acceptable

 

[Grendel]

Just to make sure I've got this right are we saying:

16 year olds getting the vote - unacceptable

10 year olds being executed by the state - acceptable

That’s a non relatable comparison - Pete probably thinks prisoners human rights are impacted by being denied the vote

 

[Grendel]

But don’t worry Mr Venables is soon to leave prison again with yet another new identity

watch out if a shifty loner moves in next door. Don’t search for his identity though it’s you that would end up in prison then not him

 

[skybluetony176]

Just to make sure I've got this right are we saying:

16 year olds getting the vote - unacceptable

10 year olds being executed by the state - acceptable

Clearly 16 year olds getting the vote isn’t acceptable. It should be 10. Apparently that’s the age you’re old enough to be treated as an adult.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

We had that, it was called Imprisonment for Public Protection and was introduced in as part of the 2003 Criminal Justice Act. They were abolished in 2012.

For good reason and still about 3000 still in prison. However I think there are sentences that should be served

 

[Otis]

I thought Boris Johnson was a disgrace on Andrew Marr this morning.

Shami Chakrabarti, on before, was quite restrained in any condemnation of any side in the blame stakes. Boris comes on and takes zero responsibility and puts the entire blame on Labour.

As Andrew Marr kept saying, the Tories have been in power for 10 years, but Boris just kept answering with the fact that he has only been leader for 120 days.

Seems to the layman, both sides have a degree of culpability here. The automatic release policy seems like it was entirely wrong, but the Conservatives have been in power now for 10 years. Zero excuse here.

Tories have closed 300 magistrate and criminal courts since they came to power. Austerity has resulted in massive cutbacks in the prison and probation system.

 

[fernandopartridge]

Johnson personally warned about risks of freeing terrorists but said there’s ‘no money’ to deradicalise them, ex-prosecutor says

Not looking good for Boris. I'm sure he will try and spin it on Marr tomorrow.

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

The problem is that most of the Tory devotees see austerity as just being about cutting benefits to the undeserving poor, in reality it's much much bigger than that of course.
They took an axe to every departmental budget with no strategy apart from chasing a pointless surplus.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

I thought Boris Johnson was a disgrace on Andrew Marr this morning.

Shami Chakrabarti, on before, was quite restrained in any condemnation of any side in the blame stakes. Boris comes on and takes zero responsibility and puts the entire blame on Labour.

As Andrew Marr kept saying, the Tories have been in power for 10 years, but Boris just kept answering with the fact that he has only been leader for 120 days.

Seems to the layman, both sides have a degree of culpability here. The automatic release policy seems like it was entirely wrong, but the Conservatives have been in power now for 10 years. Zero excuse here.

Tories have closed 300 magistrate and criminal courts since they came to power. Austerity has resulted in massive cutbacks in the prison and probation system.

Just this morning? He’s a disgrace full stop

 

[chiefdave]

Shami Chakrabarti, on before, was quite restrained in any condemnation of any side on the blame stakes.

Can't stand Chakrabarti but have to admit she came across well this morning. Although anyone is going to look good against Johnson's car crash.

 

[clint van damme]

I thought Boris Johnson was a disgrace on Andrew Marr this morning.

Shami Chakrabarti, on before, was quite restrained in any condemnation of any side in the blame stakes. Boris comes on and takes zero responsibility and puts the entire blame on Labour.

As Andrew Marr kept saying, the Tories have been in power for 10 years, but Boris just kept answering with the fact that he has only been leader for 120 days.

Seems to the layman, both sides have a degree of culpability here. The automatic release policy seems like it was entirely wrong, but the Conservatives have been in power now for 10 years. Zero excuse here.

Tories have closed 300 magistrate and criminal courts since they came to power. Austerity has resulted in massive cutbacks in the prison and probation system.

Have seen various figures on how much the justice department budget has been cut ranging from as high as 40% down to 27%.
Even if it's the lower figure, that's still a massive amount.

 

[Otis]

Have seen various figures on how much the justice department budget has been cut ranging from as high as 40% down to 27%.
Even if it's the lower figure, that's still a massive amount.

Yup. It is huge.

I like the way our PM seems to just make out like he has only been in the Conservative party for 120 days. Seems to be his stock answer. 'Why haven't the Conservative Party done anything at all about this in the last 10 years?'

'I have only been in office as prime minister for 120 days.'

It's like he has only just joined the party.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Yup. It is huge.

I like the way our MP seems to just make out like he has only been in the Conservative party for 120 days. Seems to be his stock answer. 'Why haven't the Conservative Party done anything at all about this in the last 10 years?'

'I have only been in office as prime minister for 120 days.'

It's like he has only just joined the party.

They haven’t not just not done anything their policies have had a direct impact on making things worse. Not least probation resources. Ask Chris greyling about the billion pounds wasted on outsourcing