London Bridge (17 Viewers)

[Otis]

Loved Pinochet.

Until Thatcher came to prominence I actually thought that was a wine.

 

---

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Until Thatcher came to prominence I actually thought that was a wine.

That's weird. Until Pinochet came to prominence I thought Thatcher was a cider!

 

[Monners]

I have and I’m well educated in the unedifying Irish murderers who call themselves an army

Go back to your Bobby Sands poster

Oh dear. I was hoping you would prove me wrong. Never mind.

 

[Otis]

Oh dear. I was hoping you would prove me wrong. Never mind.

Grendel never proves anyone wrong, he only proves himself right.

 

[Grendel]

Oh dear. I was hoping you would prove me wrong. Never mind.

Considering if you believe one of the theories that one of the gruesome foursome you mentioned was implicit in executing another I’m surprised you mentioned them all to be honest

 

[Grendel]

As for “proving you wrong” you’ve clearly accepted that the at the time unique policy of killing and more to the point assassinating non political civilians is a justifiable response to the pursuit of nationalism

There is no argument this was the policy that the IRA indulged in under Collins authority

We can all argue the rights and wrongs of Maxwell and his response to the Easter rising but the suggestion that Collins didn’t then follow a strategy of terror on innocent civilians shows an interesting side of you

It’s amusing in a way Collins was almost certainly killed in the end by his own as he was seen as looking at diplomatic solutions. Don’t tell me that was the IRA that killed him it was the Real or Dissident one as if cheap branding gives it divergence

As Lyra McKee found out nothing really changes does it?

 

[Monners]

Considering if you believe one of the theories that one of the gruesome foursome you mentioned was implicit in executing another I’m surprised you mentioned them all to be honest

Like I said. You need to educate yourself. A trip to Kilmainham Gaol would do you good. I am happy to recommend some academic texts on Irish history if you wish, just drop me a pm.

 

[Monners]

As for “proving you wrong” you’ve clearly accepted that the at the time unique policy of killing and more to the point assassinating non political civilians is a justifiable response to the pursuit of nationalism

There is no argument this was the policy that the IRA indulged in under Collins authority

We can all argue the rights and wrongs of Maxwell and his response to the Easter rising but the suggestion that Collins didn’t then follow a strategy of terror on innocent civilians shows an interesting side of you

It’s amusing in a way Collins was almost certainly killed in the end by his own as he was seen as looking at diplomatic solutions. Don’t tell me that was the IRA that killed him it was the Real or Dissident one as if cheap branding gives it divergence

As Lyra McKee found out nothing really changes does it?

You don't know the first thing about me mate - and you certainly know nothing about Irish history.

So were Manarchin Begin and Madela also terrorists (from my original post), or is your bile reserved only for the Irish?

 

[Grendel]

You don't know the first thing about me mate - and you certainly know nothing about Irish history.

So were Manarchin Begin and Madela also terrorists (from my original post), or is your bile reserved only for the Irish?

No answers to any of my points I see

 

[Monners]

No answers to any of my points I see

My answer was that you clearly know nothing about Irish history. Like I said, feel free to pm me for some balanced academic texts.
Begin and Mandela?

I will leave it there as it’s pointless trying to discuss anything with you.

you come across as a an attention seeking obnoxious fool, with a misplaced superiority complex.

one last thought - and apologies for the personal question, but you remind a little of my older brother (at his worst). He was diagnosed with Aspergers a couple of years back and is now a far happier and balanced person now he has treatment.

 

[shmmeee]

Grendel never proves anyone wrong, he only proves himself right.

The only thing Grendel proves is that baby boomers could make a living without any discernible intelligence or ability.

 

[Grendel]

The only thing Grendel proves is that baby boomers could make a living without any discernible intelligence or ability.

I think you’ve confused me with your father

 

[Grendel]

My answer was that you clearly know nothing about Irish history. Like I said, feel free to pm me for some balanced academic texts.
Begin and Mandela?

I will leave it there as it’s pointless trying to discuss anything with you.

you come across as a an attention seeking obnoxious fool, with a misplaced superiority complex.

one last thought - and apologies for the personal question, but you remind a little of my older brother (at his worst). He was diagnosed with Aspergers a couple of years back and is now a far happier and balanced person now he has treatment.

Oh dear

 

[SkyBlueCharlie9]

Do people who hack dead school girls phone's change their spots?

You quote Trump and now Piers Morgan in the Daily Mail..... for god sake do some proper research and keep your mind open til then. Failing that I'd highly recommend going to uni to broaden your horizons.

 

[SkyBlueCharlie9]

There is no solution. I don't want to hug a terrorist who blows up children in Manchester etc. I want them to die a very slow and painful death. Sorry but they deserve nothing less.

FFS its the 21st Century man!

 

[skybluetony176]

Like I said. You need to educate yourself. A trip to Kilmainham Gaol would do you good. I am happy to recommend some academic texts on Irish history if you wish, just drop me a pm.

He didn’t even realise that the GFA is more than one agreement. He seriously thought that an arrangement that brought one of the most complicated periods in British/Irish history to a close was a one page brief on the government’s website.

 

[Grendel]

He didn’t even realise that the GFA is more than one agreement. He seriously thought that an arrangement that brought one of the most complicated periods in British/Irish history to a close was a one page brief on the government’s website.

Hello Tony the death of the aforementioned journalist shows it’s not closed

I’m interested to see you think the IRA is a freedom fighting movement and not a terrorist group which of course is exactly what this discussion is really about

I guess some people could say Britain First is as well if that’s the way they think

It’s you that failed to comprehend the GFA (so called) is actually an opportunity for Irish unity if it so wished

Are the IRA a terrorist movement as this is essentially this rather tired and dull argument - I say yes Monners believes not

 

[Grappa]

A Star Called Henry by Roddy Doyle. Have a read and get back to me. I used to be one of those 'no surrender' idiots too. The Irish stuff is certainly not black and white.

 

[skybluetony176]

Hello Tony the death of the aforementioned journalist shows it’s not closed

I’m interested to see you think the IRA is a freedom fighting movement and not a terrorist group which of course is exactly what this discussion is really about

I guess some people could say Britain First is as well if that’s the way they think

It’s you that failed to comprehend the GFA (so called) is actually an opportunity for Irish unity if it so wished

Are the IRA a terrorist movement as this is essentially this rather tired and dull argument - I say yes Monners believes not

Which IRA are you talking about? You do know there’s been more than one?

 

[skybluetony176]

A Star Called Henry by Roddy Doyle. Have a read and get back to me. I used to be one of those 'no surrender' idiots too. The Irish stuff is certainly not black and white.

The Irish War by Tony Geraghty is a great read and gives lots of time to explaining the history all the way back to the battle of the Boyne.

 

[Grendel]

Which IRA are you talking about? You do know there’s been more than one?

Well thanks for telling me so which ones are in your view terrorists and which are freedom fighters

 

[Grendel]

A Star Called Henry by Roddy Doyle. Have a read and get back to me. I used to be one of those 'no surrender' idiots too. The Irish stuff is certainly not black and white.

It may not be but g thy be question posed is were these people terrorists.

it’s skating on thin ice if you decide they were fighting nationalism and freedom as then you’d have to defend the Paisley movement for doing the same when it’s clear the remaining provinces wanted and continue to want uk sovereignty

Also the split in the Ira and the subsequent bloodshed amongst its own was worse than the preceding deaths

Mandella is a dumb comparison - and significantly he gained traction through political alliance in the end not by bombing the fuck out of everyone

 

[skybluetony176]

Well thanks for telling me so which ones are in your view terrorists and which are freedom fighters

Depends on your point of view doesn’t it. One man’s terrorist will always be another man’s freedom fighter but to take a balanced view you need to know the history to understand the mindset and you clearly don’t. Ireland was caught in the crosshairs of an English war between two opposing kings of England neither of who were English or Irish. It starts from there and gets even more complicated. You’re looking for a black and white answer from a question that is far from black and white. The fact that you’re asking for answers in that form just confirms how little you know about it.

 

[Grendel]

Depends on your point of view doesn’t it. One man’s terrorist will always be another man’s freedom fighter but to take a balanced view you need to know the history to understand the mindset and you clearly don’t. Ireland was caught in the crosshairs of an English war between two opposing kings of England neither of who were English or Irish. It starts from there and gets even more complicated. You’re looking for a black and white answer from a question that is far from black and white. The fact that you’re asking for answers in that form just confirms how little you know about it.

Well no I asked your opinion and you refuse to equate an answer. You dodge it and shroud your argument in bluster

You can decide if the desire for nationalism is worthy of violence ace destruction if civilian life if you wish. I would then assume if Scotland were denied it’s yet another vote on independence it decided to be a real ISA and blow up some children in Warrington you would find this acceptable - or perhaps you wouldn’t - as ultimately you find it difficult to construct any opinion at all

What I find amusing about the foursome Monners listed is that one was executed by one of the others and the one that survived several years later dragged opponents to his own self made internment camps

you are the big Irish historian so I’m sure you get the irony

 

[Grendel]

Actually Tony if we are really going to have the discussion let’s have it on De Valera - an utterly revolting individual who clearly was a megalomaniac - what’s your view on him

 

[skybluetony176]

Well no I asked your opinion and you refuse to equate an answer. You dodge it and shroud your argument in bluster

You can decide if the desire for nationalism is worthy of violence ace destruction if civilian life if you wish. I would then assume if Scotland were denied it’s yet another vote on independence it decided to be a real ISA and blow up some children in Warrington you would find this acceptable - or perhaps you wouldn’t - as ultimately you find it difficult to construct any opinion at all

What I find amusing about the foursome Monners listed is that one was executed by one of the others and the one that survived several years later dragged opponents to his own self made internment camps

you are the big Irish historian so I’m sure you get the irony

Thanks for telling me what I think. You’re wrong as usual but thanks anyway.
My opinion on what exactly? Individual organisations? Individuals involved in those organisations? Individual events that led to the existence of those organisations? Individual events committed by those organisations?
You still seem to think it’s black and white. It’s anything but. Ask me about any one event or person involved and I’ll give you a straight answer on that one person or event but expecting someone to give it a broad stroke answer and then thinking you’re clever when no one can give you that is the most ironic thing you’ll see on here today simply because it’s got both feet firmly in moronic.

 

[Grendel]

Also Tony if we are really discussing the IRA and it’s radicalism perhaps we can discuss it’s known links and alliance with Nazi Germany - thoughts?

 

[skybluetony176]

Also Tony if we are really discussing the IRA and it’s radicalism perhaps we can discuss it’s known links and alliance with Nazi Germany - thoughts?

There you go again. Thinking it’s black and white. For starters you have to acknowledge that more IRA men died fighting with the British Army in two world wars than died fighting the Republican cause against the British last century. If you widen that to catholic Irish men then more catholic Irish men died fighting with the British army in two world wars than in the entire history of the Republican cause. The IRA was traditionally a broad church up until the provisional IRA and many many Irish Republicans never had an issue fighting the Nazis as members of the British Army. And you won’t find that on your favourite source of wiki, you will have to read some actual factual history books on Ireland to know that.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Mandella is a dumb comparison - and significantly he gained traction through political alliance in the end not by bombing the fuck out of everyone

Although this isn't an issue I want to get involved in, surely you can use the same argument that in Ireland traction was eventually gained through political alliance not by bombing? But because they've made that transition does it excuse what they've done in the past? And if not why does it for Mandela?

 

[Grendel]

Although this isn't an issue I want to get involved in, surely you can use the same argument that in Ireland traction was eventually gained through political alliance not by bombing? But because they've made that transition does it excuse what they've done in the past? And if not why does it for Mandela?

I suspect the family of Lyra McKee might take issue

 

[shmmeee]

I always wonder in these discussions what people would feel if we were occupied by a foreign power or oppressive government.

 

[Grendel]

I always wonder in these discussions what people would feel if we were occupied by a foreign power or oppressive government.

Which is what Usman Khan thought

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

It’s you that failed to comprehend the GFA (so called) is actually an opportunity for Irish unity if it so wished

If the majority exists for reunification why shouldn't it be permitted?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

It may not be but g thy be question posed is were these people terrorists.

it’s skating on thin ice if you decide they were fighting nationalism and freedom as then you’d have to defend the Paisley movement for doing the same when it’s clear the remaining provinces wanted and continue to want uk sovereignty

Also the split in the Ira and the subsequent bloodshed amongst its own was worse than the preceding deaths

Mandella is a dumb comparison - and significantly he gained traction through political alliance in the end not by bombing the fuck out of everyone

Yes bombing civilians for political gain is terrorism.

What is the shooting of unarmed civilians?

 

[Otis]

Actually Tony if we are really going to have the discussion let’s have it on De Valera - an utterly revolting individual who clearly was a megalomaniac - what’s your view on him

I have to be entirely honest here and say that I have never heard of Dr Valera before and had to Google them.