General Election 2019 thread (47 Viewers)

[shmmeee]

Fine, I wasn't declaring my position on them either way, just referencing the BL movement and how, historically, Labour was very much in favour of them because they saw them as doing the exact opposite of what you state.

I'm increasingly trying to step out of the echo-chamber, and this grassroots Blue Labour movement is quite interesting and some of the essays enlightening. Lots I have issue with though.

Blue Labour is really interesting. I don’t agree with lots they have to say but then I disagree with lots each faction has to say. I think Labour is at its best when it takes from all of them and BLs position on stuff like law and order and patriotism is spot on IMO. I think since the decline of unions we’ve lost that voice in the party and it’s been all to easy to forget one side of the electoral coalition.

edit:
Grammar schools, like private schools, are a tough one. They definitely help the individual and hurt the community according to the data. I’d like to think a system that serves all kinds of kids is possible from academic to artistic to hands on. But we clearly don’t have that system right now. Same issue with the university strategy in many ways. It’s less about stopping some who are benefitting and more about doing more for those that don’t choose that route.

My main issue with private schools is they select based on parental income and that entrenches privilege. Grammars do that only because there’s so few of them that house prices near them skyrocket. Seems like more of them, plus a high quality vocational option would solve most of the problems. Turn private schools into grammars?

 

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[shmmeee]

I reckon it would need people to be flexible & not be conducive to family life at all

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Why though? This isn’t some crazy hypothetical, we got Saturdays like a hundred years ago. We literally only work like this because that’s the done thing. We could take Fridays off like we do Saturdays.

Obviously global economy means it’s not as simple as when we basically ruled the world economy in the Industrial Age. But it shouldn’t be beyond the wit of man.

I’d be equally happy with a proper commitment to offering everyone work from home to be honest. Currently I have to choose between work and seeing my kids so not sure why fewer hours wouldn’t be conducive to family life, can’t see where you’ve got that from at all. I think you’re kicking back purer because it’s an idea from the left.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Fine, I wasn't declaring my position on them either way, just referencing the BL movement and how, historically, Labour was very much in favour of them because they saw them as doing the exact opposite of what you state.

I'm increasingly trying to step out of the echo-chamber, and this grassroots Blue Labour movement is quite interesting and some of the essays enlightening. Lots I have issue with though.

In the 1950s we thought you could determine a child’s innate academic ability at the age of 11. We know far more now and the wealth of evidence available on grammars suggests they will worsen problems rather than improve them. The 50s do however provide a snapshot of how Labour might win without Scottish support.

 

[CCFCSteve]

Blue Labour is really interesting. I don’t agree with lots they have to say but then I disagree with lots each faction has to say. I think Labour is at its best when it takes from all of them and BLs position on stuff like law and order and patriotism is spot on IMO. I think since the decline of unions we’ve lost that voice in the party and it’s been all to easy to forget one side of the electoral coalition.

edit:
Grammar schools, like private schools, are a tough one. They definitely help the individual and hurt the community according to the data. I’d like to think a system that serves all kinds of kids is possible from academic to artistic to hands on. But we clearly don’t have that system right now. Same issue with the university strategy in many ways. It’s less about stopping some who are benefitting and more about doing more for those that don’t choose that route.

My main issue with private schools is they select based on parental income and that entrenches privilege. Grammars do that only because there’s so few of them that house prices near them skyrocket. Seems like more of them, plus a high quality vocational option would solve most of the problems. Turn private schools into grammars?

agree shmmeee, that something isn’t quite right with the grammar school system but I’d would still rather have them than not (I’m just a comp boy but two of my best mates went to a grammar school, neither particularly from well off families, one from single parent family). I don’t know much about grammars but do any/many have a certain intake from disadvantage areas (if not, they should do) ?

Same with unis. Even though I didn’t have to pay tuition fees I struggle to argue that wider population (non uni students) should cover the cost of others to go. What I don’t agree with are uni’s overcharging for courses (ie putting at max of £9k as standard). I’d also like the government to provide more subsidies/grants to encourage people to study the courses in areas we are lacking in as a country

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

agree shmmeee, that something isn’t quite right with the grammar school system but I’d would still rather have them than not (I’m just a comp boy but two of my best mates went to a grammar school, neither particularly from well off families, one from single parent family). I don’t know much about grammars but do any/many have a certain intake from disadvantage areas (if not, they should do) ?

Same with unis. Even though I didn’t have to pay tuition fees I struggle to argue that wider population (non uni students) should cover the cost of others to go. What I don’t agree with are uni’s overcharging for courses (ie putting at max of £9k as standard). I’d also like the government to provide more subsidies/grants to encourage people to study the courses in areas we are lacking in as a country

The intake depends on the area they are in and the number of applicants passing the 11+. The problem comes when parents who can afford it pay for private coaching for the 11+ (and these students stick out like a sore thumb in a classroom), despite the efforts of those setting the test to make it resistant to that. Then the grammars also cream off more experienced and knowledgeable teachers leaving the comprehensives with a raft of problems. The more grammars you have the wider and more entrenched the gap will become.

I would like to see non-academic students kept on a core curriculum of maths/English/computing and then spending the rest of their time as apprentices or something like it, in skilled trades.

 

[shmmeee]

agree shmmeee, that something isn’t quite right with the grammar school system but I’d would still rather have them than not (I’m just a comp boy but two of my best mates went to a grammar school, neither particularly from well off families, one from single parent family). I don’t know much about grammars but do any/many have a certain intake from disadvantage areas (if not, they should do) ?

Same with unis. Even though I didn’t have to pay tuition fees I struggle to argue that wider population (non uni students) should cover the cost of others to go. What I don’t agree with are uni’s overcharging for courses (ie putting at max of £9k as standard). I’d also like the government to provide more subsidies/grants to encourage people to study the courses in areas we are lacking in as a country

As BSB says the issue is that they suck quality out of other schools and at the moment favour those who can afford to move there and pay a tutor.

From my experience teaching I think 11 is far too young to separate kids. I’d rather see lots of choice, including grammars, at 14 and keep a comprehensive system before that. If you talk to my parents generation about everyone taking the 11 Plus and what it did to kids who failed I’m not sure I’d want to put that on an 11 year old. Talking to my Dutch partner she says that they have a tiered system at 13 as well where “lower” schools teacher fewer languages and the like and focus on skills based learning rather than academic, which seems sensible.

Uni I disagree with you. University educated population is a universal good, however one thing tuition fees have done is improve the quality of our unis due to better funding. But then I think because we haven’t got smarter we’ve ended up with a lot of frankly economically worthless courses which are hard to justify the tax payer paying for. A STEM degree is far more likely to pay back into the economy than a Gender Studies one, to put it bluntly.

 

[CCFCSteve]

As BSB says the issue is that they suck quality out of other schools and at the moment favour those who can afford to move there and pay a tutor.

From my experience teaching I think 11 is far too young to separate kids. I’d rather see lots of choice, including grammars, at 14 and keep a comprehensive system before that. If you talk to my parents generation about everyone taking the 11 Plus and what it did to kids who failed I’m not sure I’d want to put that on an 11 year old. Talking to my Dutch partner she says that they have a tiered system at 13 as well where “lower” schools teacher fewer languages and the like and focus on skills based learning rather than academic, which seems sensible.

Uni I disagree with you. University educated population is a universal good, however one thing tuition fees have done is improve the quality of our unis due to better funding. But then I think because we haven’t got smarter we’ve ended up with a lot of frankly economically worthless courses which are hard to justify the tax payer paying for. A STEM degree is far more likely to pay back into the economy than a Gender Studies one, to put it bluntly.

From what you say there Shmmeee, I don’t think we disagree on the Uni’s (unless I’ve misunderstood your comments or not been clear myself). As i say, no issue with tuition fees but I believe Uni’s are overcharging for certain courses. I’d also quite happy for government to subsidise those courses that will pay back be general economy/country

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

A STEM degree is far more likely to pay back into the economy than a Gender Studies one, to put it bluntly.

Ha, weren't any jobs going in that when I graduated

 

[shmmeee]

From what you say there Shmmeee, I don’t think we disagree on the Uni’s (unless I’ve misunderstood your comments or not been clear myself). As i say, no issue with tuition fees but I believe Uni’s are overcharging for certain courses. I’d also quite happy for government to subsidise those courses that will pay back be general economy/country

Then yeah we agree. I thought you were saying the government should never subsidise uni.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

I'd be well up for a mon-thurs short week, but unfortunately my employer wants 7 day working, where you cover a different 4 days each week.

Could you not suggest people retaining 3 set days a week (ie Mon-Wed and Thu-Sat) with each set doing the extra day every other week?

Not ideal I know as it would effectively be two lost days for each employee but having that solid foundation of knowing which days you'd work would probably be better for a lot of people to sort out family/personal things like childcare/picking kids up etc.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Grammar schools, like private schools, are a tough one. They definitely help the individual and hurt the community according to the data. I’d like to think a system that serves all kinds of kids is possible from academic to artistic to hands on. But we clearly don’t have that system right now. Same issue with the university strategy in many ways. It’s less about stopping some who are benefitting and more about doing more for those that don’t choose that route.

My main issue with private schools is they select based on parental income and that entrenches privilege. Grammars do that only because there’s so few of them that house prices near them skyrocket. Seems like more of them, plus a high quality vocational option would solve most of the problems. Turn private schools into grammars?

I find the big problem with grammar is the perception of them being 'better' than those that go to other types of schools. It should be about making the most of an individuals abilities, whether they be academic, vocational, artistic etc not 'I'm better than you'.

Part of this is that those that get into positions of power come from private and grammar school education and so create this echo chamber that they're better and thus policy centres around this idea.

 

[shmmeee]

Ha, weren't any jobs going in that when I graduated

You're biology aren’t you? I’d guess research funding is a big influence there. That’s the other piece of the puzzle.

I find the big problem with grammar is the perception of them being 'better' than those that go to other types of schools. It should be about making the most of an individuals abilities, whether they be academic, vocational, artistic etc not 'I'm better than you'.

Part of this is that those that get into positions of power come from private and grammar school education and so create this echo chamber that they're better and thus policy centres around this idea.

Totally. Was having this conversation with my daughter recently when she asked why all her mates parents were going mental about the 11+.

I’d hope if they were just one option among a range of decent routes that would be lesser.

We do love to rank people in this country through. Even with Uni we break it into tiers. Not sure we can ever get fully away from that.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

Grammar schools widen and entrench social inequality

I largely disagree...I think that peer groups have much more influence, and parental influence. It dawns on some, but not others, as they mature. Think how attitudes towards women, sexuality & race would have failed to evolve otherwise.

My niece & nephew went to fee-paying Grammar School & move in a much broader social circles and appear at least much more benevolent than I or their parents.

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[SkyblueBazza]

Why though? This isn’t some crazy hypothetical, we got Saturdays like a hundred years ago. We literally only work like this because that’s the done thing. We could take Fridays off like we do Saturdays.

Obviously global economy means it’s not as simple as when we basically ruled the world economy in the Industrial Age. But it shouldn’t be beyond the wit of man.

I’d be equally happy with a proper commitment to offering everyone work from home to be honest. Currently I have to choose between work and seeing my kids so not sure why fewer hours wouldn’t be conducive to family life, can’t see where you’ve got that from at all. I think you’re kicking back purer because it’s an idea from the left.

Why? Well if flexibility as eluded to earlier in the thread was needed people would not spend so much time with their family/kids for a start. That has been shown as being detrimental to society itself hasn't it?

For every one such as you or I taking a Monday or a Friday there has to be someone else in many occupations to fill the void...if the flexibility required people to work weekends &/or to make up the shortfall in production or process. So someone else loses.

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[Sick Boy]

I'd be well up for a mon-thurs short week, but unfortunately my employer wants 7 day working, where you cover a different 4 days each week.

A lot of places also do half of the people have Friday off and the other half Monday.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I largely disagree...I think that peer groups have much more influence, and parental influence. It dawns on some, but not others, as they mature. Think how attitudes towards women, sexuality & race would have failed to evolve otherwise.

My niece & nephew went to fee-paying Grammar School & move in a much broader social circles and appear at least much more benevolent than I or their parents.

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Ignoring reams of empirical evidence as usual eh Baz

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

You're biology aren’t you? I’d guess research funding is a big influence there. That’s the other piece of the puzzle.

Totally. Was having this conversation with my daughter recently when she asked why all her mates parents were going mental about the 11+.

I’d hope if they were just one option among a range of decent routes that would be lesser.

We do love to rank people in this country through. Even with Uni we break it into tiers. Not sure we can ever get fully away from that.

Nope I was in physical science. Hardly any jobs were going when I graduated so had to go into post grad

 

[SkyblueBazza]

Ignoring reams of empirical evidence as usual eh Baz

Not especially...but the conclusions may not be tangible - simply linked to the same political/class-war agenda as yours that the majority of people (who didn't go to Grammar or Uni) don't buy into fully.

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[SkyblueBazza]

Now this I do buy in to!

Company rewards non-smokers with extra holiday

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[Brighton Sky Blue]

Not especially...but the conclusions may not be tangible - simply linked to the same political/class-war agenda as yours that the majority of people (who didn't go to Grammar or Uni) don't buy into fully.

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Nah it's linked to research some of which has taken place over decades and involved thousands of people. Released around the time the May government was looking into mass grammar expansion. Oh and I've taught in both...

 

[shmmeee]

I largely disagree...I think that peer groups have much more influence, and parental influence. It dawns on some, but not others, as they mature. Think how attitudes towards women, sexuality & race would have failed to evolve otherwise.

My niece & nephew went to fee-paying Grammar School & move in a much broader social circles and appear at least much more benevolent than I or their parents.

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Not especially...but the conclusions may not be tangible - simply linked to the same political/class-war agenda as yours that the majority of people (who didn't go to Grammar or Uni) don't buy into fully.

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Educational attainment is “class war agenda” now?

I’ve heard it all!

 

[shmmeee]

Nah it's linked to research some of which has taken place over decades and involved thousands of people. Released around the time the May government was looking into mass grammar expansion. Oh and I've taught in both...

Same (well streamed grammar which is close enough).

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Educational attainment is “class war agenda” now?

I’ve heard it all!

Education? Completed it mate

 

[shmmeee]

Education? Completed it mate

More like he couldn’t get out of the tutorial level from what I’ve seen.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Same (well streamed grammar which is close enough).

I was in a traditional grammar. Dated facilities and large classes containing a mix of the well coached and the genuinely bright. 6th form is where it's at in grammars really

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

More like he couldn’t get out of the tutorial level from what I’ve seen.

To be fair nor did Jay

 

[SkyblueBazza]

Nah it's linked to research some of which has taken place over decades and involved thousands of people. Released around the time the May government was looking into mass grammar expansion. Oh and I've taught in both...

You have to accept some of the responsibility for it then if it is true...which it isn't. It us another sweeping generalisation. One of my best mates went to Grammar too...he is MD in a very big UK firm - nicer down to earth bloke you couldn't wish to meet! The vast majority of those attending Grammar do not become as sneering as the like of yourself imo

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[SkyblueBazza]

Educational attainment is “class war agenda” now?

I’ve heard it all!

Everything seems to be a class-war for some on here. Not me personally. I treat everyone the same.

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[Ian1779]

Now this I do buy in to!

Company rewards non-smokers with extra holiday

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When I was in my early twenties I worked at a place where the smokers had this culture of every hour on the dot they’d be outside for a cigarette and no one ever challenged it. In the canteen there was a pool table, so 3 of us decided that every time the smokers went out, we’d go down and play. Always walked down at same time as them and walked back up when they did. After 3 days we got pulled into the HR office because we were ‘wasting company time’ - the smokers didn’t get challenged at all, even when we pointed the unfairness of it out no was brave enough to call it out.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

When I was in my early twenties I worked at a place where the smokers had this culture of every hour on the dot they’d be outside for a cigarette and no one ever challenged it. In the canteen there was a pool table, so 3 of us decided that every time the smokers went out, we’d go down and play. Always walked down at same time as them and walked back up when they did. After 3 days we got pulled into the HR office because we were ‘wasting company time’ - the smokers didn’t get challenged at all, even when we pointed the unfairness of it out no was brave enough to call it out.

Terrible. Probably still rife too. In fact I know someone who works with a morbidly obese individual that cannot perform their duties properly because they cannot get up the stairs easily...unless someone says there is some cake in the kitchen, of course!

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[Brighton Sky Blue]

Everything seems to be a class-war for some on here. Not me personally. I treat everyone the same.

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What are you on about now?

 

[stupot07]

This is an interesting but scary thread on Facebooks political ads policy.



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[chiefdave]

Good to see them sticking together. There was very little scrutiny of Johnson and the things he was coming out with in the election campaign and he seems to want to carry on that way.

You can't have a government that refuses to have anyone on shows like R4 Today or speak with anyone who gives them the slightest bit of criticism.

Journalists from every major national broadcaster and newspaper walked out of No 10 today after the Government tried to pick and choose which media outlets it briefed.

Broadcasters including political editors Laura Kuenssberg from the BBC, Robert Peston from ITV and Beth Rigby from Sky News were among those who left in protest.

 

[shmmeee]

They know they’ll get away with it. Just Facebook Lives to the acolytes now.

 

[SkyBlueDom26]