Coronavirus Thread (Off Topic, Politics) (346 Viewers)

[djr8369]

Surely any contract you're in for a project will have a force majeure provision so you can claim relief?

If it was fulfilling a contract I suspect you'd be right but it's internal projects. We're being told it's "critical to the business" that we carry on working so I guess the implication is that if we don't keep working the business fails regardless of what happens with the virus and the economy. If that is true then I cannot see how the business is going to survive the inevitable recession and lower demand.

 

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[djr8369]

Definitely. There's a difference between getting behind measures to help (I'm behind all of them) and unquestionable support to the extent that those in power go unchallenged. And lack of competition is a dangerous thing. Tories like to bang on about how competition and the market can achieve an efficient outcome. They also apply that to public services - schools, the NHS etc. But funnily enough, they won't apply it to their own thinking and policies - such policies are considered to be out of discussion. Fair enough that Labour were woeful and could not garner enough support to mount any kind of credible opposition for now. But worryingly, I fear that the majority still fall into the groupthink category of unquestionably getting behind government actions - we've seen it in both the UK and the US since probably around 2010, and I'm not convinced that this lack of critical thinking is going to stop any time soon.

Of course it's this lack of critical thinking and deference to those in authority (and I am not claiming it is what is going to happen here or in the US, just that it is a dangerous precedent) that allows dictators to rise and to get their supporters to do unspeakable things on their behalf.

 

[Skyblueweeman]

Have you tried Iceland .
I've got one coming tomorrow.
My daughter set it up but I don't know if she's put me in a vulnerable category or not .
You might find an early to mid evening visit preferable .
Aldi Cannon park only had around 10 in at 5 ish last night .
I know you are Portsmouth way.

Thanks Wingy. Will give them a try.

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

 

[Flying Fokker]

It’s absolutely remarkable isn’t it? Legacy Systems are failing and being replaced. Things there were no money for are having billions thrown at them. Suddenly nearly everyone can work from home rather than commuting to an office and it turns out most jobs aren’t needed and the people on the lowest rungs of society are “key workers”.


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Care workers are valued for the role they do but they are not rewarded. That’s the way it is. They have not had a fair pay rise in 12 years or so.

Some I know are emotionally torn. They have been redeployed into environments that do exactly what we are all told not to do. Gathering with people they do not know and uncertain about their futures. Some are on unpaid leave. They could be taking the virus into the vulnerable homes or carrying it out with their own. For this reason I hear bewilderment that they are being asked to do this. Yet Coventry seems to be doing well at the moment.

It would be great if we knew whether we had the virus.

And then there is the NHS.
The numpties who are gathering in groups will /are likely to calling on health services at some point. Hopefully it is not with the virus. Hospitals are the last place to be at the moment.

 

[Astute]

Jury's out on Brown but I'd say out of the 4 before Johnson he's the least bad

Brown? The sidekick of Bliar. The one who was the brain behind the smile.

The one who decimated our private and public pensions. They speeded up privatisation of the NHS. They took us to war on a lie. People are still dying because of it. They continued where the previous Tory government had left off. They were Tories in disguise. Or how about when we retire? The Labour Government passed a new law in 2007 to raise state pension age to 66 between April 2024 and April 2026, then to 67 between April 2034 and April 2036 and to 68 between April 2044 and April 2046.

I was Labour whatever happened until Bliar and Brown got in. Just like you and many others on here still are. The same people who seem to get off on defending 'New Labour' are the same ones that always attack the Tories.

If this is not the case can someone name the last decent Labour government? They are as bad as each other.

 

[Magwitch]

Care workers are valued for the role they do but they are not rewarded. That’s the way it is. They have not had a fair pay rise in 12 years or so.

Some I know are emotionally torn. They have been redeployed into environments that do exactly what we are all told not to do. Gathering with people they do not know and uncertain about their futures. Some are on unpaid leave. They could be taking the virus into the vulnerable homes or carrying it out with their own. For this reason I hear bewilderment that they are being asked to do this. Yet Coventry seems to be doing well at the moment.

It would be great if we knew whether we had the virus.

And then there is the NHS.
The numpties who are gathering in groups will are likely to calling on health services at some point. Hopefully it is not with the virus. Hospitals are the last place to be at the moment.

The fall-out from this and there will be one will be huge it is clear the bulk of the “key” workers are the lowest paid even in the NHS, my daughter who works in a pharmacy is paid just over minimum pay, her boss has five cars ?? I can see a future when these “key” workers will unite and become a huge powerful group. The Tory proposed minimum wage will be redundant they will have to substantially overall a lot of their traditional policies.

 

[David O'Day]

Do the self employed having to have been self employed for over a year and will get fuck all until June.

It was sad watching Martin Lewis try and paint this as a great scheme.

Also why did Dyson get an order 10k ventilators and when the uk has ventilator manufacturers already.

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[Astute]

The fall-out from this and there will be one will be huge it is clear the bulk of the “key” workers are the lowest paid even in the NHS, my daughter who works in a pharmacy is paid just over minimum pay, her boss has five cars ?? I can see a future when these “key” workers will unite and become a huge powerful group. The Tory proposed minimum wage will be redundant they will have to substantially overall a lot of their traditional policies.

The pay in the public sector is well unbalanced. Those at the top are on too much considering those at the bottom are not on anywhere near enough. But that is the same in most sectors in the private sector. You get your decent companies. But they are a rarity. Some of us are lucky but most of us are not. You spend most of your working life struggling but if you reach a decent level it is after you really need the extra money when bringing up a family.

We need a fairer pay structure.

 

[shmmeee]

Totally agree

but I would also add
Blair and Brown before that as failures - not sure you can disagree

so not sure which way is the way to go
Mark Robins for PM

I’m no Blairite, but Blair led us to a decade of sustained growth and rebuilt the public services that had been destroyed by underfunding. I’m not sure some people realise what a state education and health in particular were.

Brown basically eliminated child and pensioner poverty and lead the world response to the GFC saving thousands of jobs. Between them they virtually eliminated homelessness as well. And brought in the NMW and wrote off third world debt. And ran more surpluses than any Tory government.

Not sure you can compare them to Cameron, May and Boris who between them have managed to just divide the country and make it poorer while underfunding public services and raising poverty and homelessness.

 

[Magwitch]

Brown? The sidekick of Bliar. The one who was the brain behind the smile.

The one who decimated our private and public pensions. They speeded up privatisation of the NHS. They took us to war on a lie. People are still dying because of it. They continued where the previous Tory government had left off. They were Tories in disguise. Or how about when we retire? The Labour Government passed a new law in 2007 to raise state pension age to 66 between April 2024 and April 2026, then to 67 between April 2034 and April 2036 and to 68 between April 2044 and April 2046.

I was Labour whatever happened until Bliar and Brown got in. Just like you and many others on here still are. The same people who seem to get off on defending 'New Labour' are the same ones that always attack the Tories.

If this is not the case can someone name the last decent Labour government? They are as bad as each other.

And I agree with your assessment of previous Labour Governments, who can argue ? BUT the voting public recently massively rejected the Corbyn alternative, although admittedly too complicated manifesto. Corbyn proposed to give the pension stolen from the Waspi women back, rejected, they proposed a fixed retirement age of 66, rejected, proposed a revamped social care system for all, rejected, huge increase in NHS support and rejection of the private practices in it, rejected, shall I go on.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Brown? The sidekick of Bliar. The one who was the brain behind the smile.

The one who decimated our private and public pensions. They speeded up privatisation of the NHS. They took us to war on a lie. People are still dying because of it. They continued where the previous Tory government had left off. They were Tories in disguise. Or how about when we retire? The Labour Government passed a new law in 2007 to raise state pension age to 66 between April 2024 and April 2026, then to 67 between April 2034 and April 2036 and to 68 between April 2044 and April 2046.

I was Labour whatever happened until Bliar and Brown got in. Just like you and many others on here still are. The same people who seem to get off on defending 'New Labour' are the same ones that always attack the Tories.

If this is not the case can someone name the last decent Labour government? They are as bad as each other.

I don’t know where you get the idea I always vote Labour. I didn’t vote for them in 2015 and only did so with a very heavy heart in 2019. I work in the public sector and so in a two party system they are pretty much my only option to not get screwed over.

Gordon Brown for his faults, and he has many, was in my view better than the other 3. That doesn’t make him a messiah

 

[Astute]

I’m no Blairite, but Blair led us to a decade of sustained growth and rebuilt the public services that had been destroyed by underfunding. I’m not sure some people realise what a state education and health in particular were.

Brown basically eliminated child and pensioner poverty and lead the world response to the GFC saving thousands of jobs. Between them they virtually eliminated homelessness as well. And brought in the NMW and wrote off third world debt. And ran more surpluses than any Tory government.

Not sure you can compare them to Cameron, May and Boris who between them have managed to just divide the country and make it poorer while underfunding public services and raising poverty and homelessness.

Labour took over a very healthy economy.

And this is what I am saying. Bliar and Brown constantly get defended. Ignore the bad but push the good.

You would have a field day if it was the Tories that decimated private pensions, made us work longer, escalated privatisation of the NHS and took us to war on a lie which is still costing lives.

 

[NortonSkyBlue]

Labour took over a very healthy economy.

And this is what I am saying. Bliar and Brown constantly get defended. Ignore the bad but push the good.

You would have a field day if it was the Tories that decimated private pensions, made us work longer, escalated privatisation of the NHS and took us to war on a lie which is still costing lives.

On reflection they all fucked us over. As has been mentioned there should be a realignment of the way we are governed but with so much debt accrued by this situation it will only get worse IMO.
Boris is in the strongest position of any prime Minister since Blair and is relatively bulletproof.

 

[Magwitch]

Yesterday we witnessed in one moment the change in our future lives when millions and it was millions stood outside applauding our NHS, I dare our current Government after this crisis is over to go anywhere near back to the neglect they have imposed in the last 10 years, including social care.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

America has moved to the right over the last few decades but it wasn't always like this.

The New Deal was probably one of the most left wing policies they have ever had for the era.

The jury is still out though if it worked or not. The American economy was on the edge of struggling after the change from the trickle down economics previously used.

The Second World War came just in time for their economy to be the driving force to continue full employment for that time.

FDR was the best President of the modern era because of that. Bernie Sanders would have been FDR Mk II but the Democratic higher ups decided to coalesce around Biden instead and the boomers fell in line for him.

Sanders has about 70-80% of the under 45 vote. They will not turn out for Biden and as boomers overall tend to be Republican, Biden will lose unless coronavirus kills hundreds of thousands or even millions because of Trump.

 

[Astute]

And I agree with your assessment of previous Labour Governments, who can argue ? BUT the voting public recently massively rejected the Corbyn alternative, although admittedly too complicated manifesto. Corbyn proposed to give the pension stolen from the Waspi women back, rejected, they proposed a fixed retirement age of 66, rejected, proposed a revamped social care system for all, rejected, huge increase in NHS support and rejection of the private practices in it, rejected, shall I go on.

Yes go on.

I got hammered on here for saying Corbyn would never get voted in whatever he offered. Then when I got asked why I got hammered as it looked anti Labour. And you are not allowed to be anti Labour on here. But you are praised for being anti Tory.

This isn't a party political broadcast. It is a place for debate. In a debate you are supposed to look at all sides. And it is better if you are truthful.

But not on here.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Never been in such a surreal

Labour took over a very healthy economy.

And this is what I am saying. Bliar and Brown constantly get defended. Ignore the bad but push the good.

You would have a field day if it was the Tories that decimated private pensions, made us work longer, escalated privatisation of the NHS and took us to war on a lie which is still costing lives.

If he thinks they weren't totally shit, he's going to say why if you say they were. That doesn't make them constantly defended.

It is, in fact, a debate.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Labour took over a very healthy economy.

And this is what I am saying. Bliar and Brown constantly get defended. Ignore the bad but push the good.

You would have a field day if it was the Tories that decimated private pensions, made us work longer, escalated privatisation of the NHS and took us to war on a lie which is still costing lives.

The Tories in that time also sent unemployment over 10% twice and were directly responsible for Black Monday.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

he looks like he’s had a really bad facelift?

He is a rarity in that he does better in elections by hiding away and not saying anything.

 

[shmmeee]

Labour took over a very healthy economy.

And this is what I am saying. Bliar and Brown constantly get defended. Ignore the bad but push the good.

You would have a field day if it was the Tories that decimated private pensions, made us work longer, escalated privatisation of the NHS and took us to war on a lie which is still costing lives.

Im sorry, I know you have this weird bee in your bonnet but on any metric whatsoever Brown and Blair knock the lightweights that followed them into a cocked hat. I hate Thatcher but even I can admit she was effective in pushing her vision for the country forward. And do you even understand what growth is? If the economy grows it by definition is getting better even if it was good before.

We get it. You don’t like politicians and think anyone who points out how melodramatic you are is “defending them”. I’ll leave it at that because I really can’t be arsed with this conversation again. This isn’t becoming the Brexit thread.

 

[Astute]

I don’t know where you get the idea I always vote Labour. I didn’t vote for them in 2015 and only did so with a very heavy heart in 2019. I work in the public sector and so in a two party system they are pretty much my only option to not get screwed over.

Gordon Brown for his faults, and he has many, was in my view better than the other 3. That doesn’t make him a messiah

I didn't say he wasn't the best out of anything or anyone.

Was trying to put a bit of balance into the discussion of the Tories being at fault for everything.

The older someone is the more likely that they vote Tory. Why is this?

I will never vote Tory. They are always miles from my ideals. But I have reached a stage in life where I need a reason to vote Labour.

Pumping 50 billion and running costs of countless millions each year to have free internet for all wasn't a vote winner for me. Then the numbers didn't match. All experts in the field said it would take much longer to implement than we were told. Didn't give you much faith in everything else on offer. They even wanted to spend countless billions taking train services back. Anyone with a brain would just wait for the present contracts to end.

But yeah what was on offer was great.

 

[tisza]

We're ramping it up here.
Lockdown (but still some anomalies). Only those over 65 allowed in shops, pharmacies etc between 9 and 12 o'clock. Not allowed outside those times.
But apparently haircuts and manicures considered essential activities!!

 

[Magwitch]

[QUOTE
Boris is in the strongest position of any prime Minister since Blair and is relatively bulletproof.[/QUOTE]
Sorry,,but Boris Johnson will eventually pay the political price for his dithering at the outset of this crises. The death toll will rise to the thousands, he came on tv talking up the herd immunity and following the science while Italians and Spanish were dying in the hundreds. Although in a horrid difficult position his initial leadership has failed and will cost hundreds possibly thousands of lives.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I didn't say he wasn't the best out of anything or anyone.

Was trying to put a bit of balance into the discussion of the Tories being at fault for everything.

The older someone is the more likely that they vote Tory. Why is this?

I will never vote Tory. They are always miles from my ideals. But I have reached a stage in life where I need a reason to vote Labour.

Pumping 50 billion and running costs of countless millions each year wasn't a vote winner for me. Then the numbers didn't match. All experts in the field said it would take much longer to implement than we were told. Didn't give you much faith in everything else on offer. They even wanted to spend countless billions taking train services back. Anyone with a brain would just wait for the present contracts to end.

But yeah what was on offer was great.

I wanted the 2017 manifesto again. If you were in my position as a teacher can you see why I just couldn’t vote Conservative? The roof of one of my classrooms fell in a few years ago and the Tories of that time were proposing to cut my school’s funding. Labour were arguing for big investment in education. It was a no brainer.

Our NHS would have had a much better go of fighting this disease with a Labour government in power for the last decade. A real one mind you, not the neoliberal version.

 

[David O'Day]

Yesterday we witnessed in one moment the change in our future lives when millions and it was millions stood outside applauding our NHS, I dare our current Government after this crisis is over to go anywhere near back to the neglect they have imposed in the last 10 years, including social care.

They'll stand and applaud yet have voted in a decade of governments that have eroded the NHS

 

[Astute]

And I agree with your assessment of previous Labour Governments, who can argue ? BUT the voting public recently massively rejected the Corbyn alternative, although admittedly too complicated manifesto.

Keep an eye on this thread. You will see plenty argue.

 

[SkyBlueDom26]

Coronavirus UK: Could deaths be lower than feared? | Daily Mail Online

New research shows that if Britain follows the same trajectory as China then 5,700 people, not 20,000, are expected to die - and the peak could be a week from Sunday.

A new paper by Professor Tom Pike, from Imperial College London, compares deaths for confirmed Covid-19 cases in China with eight other countries - all of which have implemented some form of social distancing measures.

The estimates for the UK - if it follows the same trajectory as China - shows the UK could have 5,700 deaths, and the daily peak would be 260 fatalities on April 5.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

We're ramping it up here.
Lockdown (but still some anomalies). Only those over 65 allowed in shops, pharmacies etc between 9 and 12 o'clock. Not allowed outside those times.
But apparently haircuts and manicures considered essential activities!!

Tell Boris that

 

[SkyBlueDom26]

Lets hope the peak is next Sunday then! I still think it will be at least 2 weeks but who knows...

 

[skybluetony176]

I’m no Blairite, but Blair led us to a decade of sustained growth

It is worth pointing out that they did that on the foundations laid by Majors government. It was widely reported at the time that the 1997 GE was the most important GE in a lifetime as the economic outlook at the time was so good that whoever won the election was basically guaranteed 2 terms.

 

[SkyBlueCRJ]

Granted I'll agree that Boris' hesitancy to act in implementing draconian measures sooner will inevitably cost lives but to solely blame him for pushing herd immunity is questionable to say the least. Surely the blame for that ridiculous battle plan against the virus should be against Patrick Vallace? Realistically it's not in Boris' remit to oppose scientific advise as he's no more qualified to do that than you or I. To suggest otherwise IMO just highlights people's bias against him.

 

[Astute]

On reflection they all fucked us over. As has been mentioned there should be a realignment of the way we are governed but with so much debt accrued by this situation it will only get worse IMO.
Boris is in the strongest position of any prime Minister since Blair and is relatively bulletproof.

Exactly.

It has been generations since we had a government for the people that didn't mess the economy up.

You have one side that leans too much towards the rich. Then you have the other side that either scares you with too generous proposals or takes over from hammering the man on the street.

Why can't we have honest policies from a party? Hopefully after this mess is over we can.

Come on Labour. Say it out loud. If you want better facilities, better NHS fairer pay to all you have to pay for it in higher tax. Raise tax collected from over whatever the average wage is. The majority won't pay more but the better off would. My vote would be there. Would even consider my first ever vote for the Tories if they offered it. My problem would be the same as each time though.

Could I trust them?

 

[David O'Day]

It is worth pointing out that they did that on the foundations laid by Majors government. It was widely reported at the time that the 1997 GE was the most important GE in a lifetime as the economic outlook at the time was so good that whoever won the election was basically guaranteed 2 terms.

The Major government was still massively underfunding the NHS, 24 hours to save the NHS and all that

 

[Ring Of Steel]

Granted I'll agree that Boris' hesitancy to act in implementing draconian measures sooner will inevitably cost lives but to solely blame him for pushing herd immunity is questionable to say the least. Surely the blame for that ridiculous battle plan against the virus should be against Patrick Vallace? Realistically it's not in Boris' remit to oppose scientific advise as he's no more qualified to do that than you or I. To suggest otherwise IMO just highlights people's bias against him.

yes, you are right- my point was always that the made up science was wrong, and that’s Vallance and Cummings. The buck stops with Boris though, and to say that he was unable to oppose it is a bit silly.

 

[skybluetony176]

Yesterday we witnessed in one moment the change in our future lives when millions and it was millions stood outside applauding our NHS, I dare our current Government after this crisis is over to go anywhere near back to the neglect they have imposed in the last 10 years, including social care.

We celebrated the NHS at the opening of the London Olympics to a rapturous applause. Just before the Tory government raped the NHS of funds. It will happen again under this government, they don’t give a fuck.