George Floyd (13 Viewers)

[Ring Of Steel]

As I said in a previous post the city has a lot to do in owning up to its wealth coming from the enslavement of Africans. Museum of Bristol has nothing. It needs a dedicated museum that educates people about how entrenched it was in the city’s economy. If that was there the statue would have been moved to there some time ago with no trouble and still be standing but when the idea gets bought up we get the same tired old white middle class voices saying “time to move on, it was ages ago, we’re all equal now”etc. There would have been nothing to check in the river if certain people were prepared to stand up and accept the historical reality.

Completely agree, big chunks of the country are pretty bad for always looking to the past though what with all banging on about the wartime spirit, 'we won two world wars' and all that (right before breaking down in tears as there's no bogroll or penne left on the shelves). There's loads to be proud of, but the inability to deal with the darker aspects detracts from it. That statue was a bone of contention even when I lived there, unbelievable that it was still standing in 2020 celebrating a slave trader.



Whatever your opinions of whether it was right or wrong, it was very effective- awareness of the issue is heightened, its made the news all over the place, people are talking about racism as an issue. Whether right or wrong, mission accomplished.

 

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[skybluetony176]

If that's true and someone's stitched him up they're as bad as the cunts throwing bricks

It will be some EDL snowflake nut job pissed of because we’ve released a kick it out two tone kit.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Not saying snipe them all from bridges but letting them all walk away with no action kind of defeats the object of something being illegal.

It makes people think they can do whatever the fuck they want and are untouchable. It then attracts more people who want to act up and get away with it under the guise of a protest.

As has been said who's going to say they'll get away with. It's videod so identify people where possible, arrest later. Going for it then would potentially cause bigger problems and there would undoubtedly be some bellends in the crowd waiting for them to do it to cause trouble. Weren't given the opportunity and it resulted in no-one getting hurt or growing animosity.

Image if they'd waded in and it kicked off and what was a protest march spread out onto the other carriageway and resulted in injury to people and damage to property as cars got damaged, not to mention how much more disruption it would've caused to those travelling. Would that have been a better outcome?

 

[Liquid Gold]

It's a much more effective way of policing than storming in, causing a riot and radicalising more people like they do in the states. If those that were actually causing trouble end up in court and those that were peacefully protest don't then it's all good no?

 

[David O'Day]

As has been said who's going to say they'll get away with. It's videod so identify people where possible, arrest later. Going for it then would potentially cause bigger problems and there would undoubtedly be some bellends in the crowd waiting for them to do it to cause trouble. Weren't given the opportunity and it resulted in no-one getting hurt or growing animosity.

Image if they'd waded in and it kicked off and what was a protest march spread out onto the other carriageway and resulted in injury to people and damage to property as cars got damaged, not to mention how much more disruption it would've caused to those travelling. Would that have been a better outcome?

Yep it's the same reason the Bristol police didn't intervene as it would likely cause bigger issues.

Watch record and arrest later

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[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Do you think women would have won the right to vote if the suffragettes didn't break the law?

The peaceful protests had almost no effect - it became more prominent once they got more violent and broke the law.

But what eventually won them the right to vote IMO was WWI and that they played a large role filling in the jobs the men had done before they were sent to fight. But without the protests as well it'd have never have been mentioned after the war.

 

[Nick]

It's a much more effective way of policing than storming in, causing a riot and radicalising more people like they do in the states. If those that were actually causing trouble end up in court and those that were peacefully protest don't then it's all good no?

If they all end up in court then great! Will be interesting to hear how many of them are or if the people driving are done for motoring offences.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

The peaceful protests had almost no effect - it became more prominent once they got more violent and broke the law.

But what eventually won them the right to vote IMO was WWI and that they played a large role filling in the jobs the men had done before they were sent to fight. But without the protests as well it'd have never have been mentioned after the war.

Its not as if the statue only became an issue at the weekend as people fancied a riot.

 

[rondog1973]

This guy Liam Howse has been knocking around on the forum for years, generally chatting rubbish and pissing people off. I believe he goes on the FL pages and Sunderland forums giving it large and stoking up trouble. I get the impression he has fairly serious learning difficulties so would be dubious about this accusation. Seems more likely to me he’s been stitched up by an oppo fan or even one of our own.

Yes, seen this guy on Facebook before and he does appear to have learning difficulties.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

It's a good job this lot causing mayhem weren't football fans or they'd be expecting early morning knocks.

As for the statue, it has no place and was rightly pulled down, but there are channels that should have done this legally and there has to be recourse otherwise the precedents are set. There would be nothing to stop that Sunderland nutter who was shouting at the JH statue following suit. The law can't distinguish that one is a legitimate protest and the other one isn't.

Part of this issue people have been using the legal recourse for years to remove the statue. Just constantly ignored. This wasn't an off-the-cuff thing.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

I agree it has no place, but that battle should have continued and made a national issue if need be. I'd certainly never heard about it until yesterday. However it can't be that if we don't like or disagree with something that we break the law to change it, however strong our beliefs.

Magna Carta was 'breaking the law' as law at the time stated the monarch had absolute control and pleas from the barons were ignored by him and just drawing up said document was treasonable and punishable by death as it questioned his authority.

Same with the Declaration of Independence. America was still a British colony at the time it was signed.

 

[David O'Day]

Part of this issue people have been using the legal recourse for years to remove the statue. Just constantly ignored. This wasn't an off-the-cuff thing.

The issue is it was listed by historic england and the merchant venturers who erected the statue in 1895 still exist.

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[shmmeee]

You can if what they're saying is complete shite and untrue. Much of what Farage says is.

And that is true of all sides. No platform unless evidence provided to back up what you're saying.

Nah. Fuck that noise. Beat them with the wet end of the arm of their own arguments. If you can’t beat a racist in an argument you’ve got problems.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

The issue is it was listed by historic england and the merchant venturers who erected the statue in 1895 still exist.

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This is them
Our Members


"An article in local magazine Venue, in 2002, claimed that many members were not active in charity. However, the society says that the qualification for potential members is being "prominent in their own sphere of business and active in the charitable or public life of the area". There were no female full members of the society until 2003 (though Margaret Thatcher had earlier been made an honorary member), and no ethnic minority members until 2020 when Marti Burgess, a partner at Bevan Brittan, was appointed.[13] There is a list of members, with brief biographies, on the website.[14]

Venue claimed that the Merchant Venturers control 12 charities and 40 trust funds, and also a private unlimited company, SMV Investments, that has major investments in defence contracting, tobacco, genetically modified agriculture and the petroleum industry. Merchant Venturers serve on the boards of many local charitable and cultural organisations, and are guaranteed seats on the University of Bristol Court and the Downs Committee. It quotes Paul Burton of the University's School of Policy Studies as saying, "they exert quite a bit of influence and we, the people of Bristol, don't know much about them and can't hold them to account".[15]"

 

[Nick]

This is them
Our Members


"An article in local magazine Venue, in 2002, claimed that many members were not active in charity. However, the society says that the qualification for potential members is being "prominent in their own sphere of business and active in the charitable or public life of the area". There were no female full members of the society until 2003 (though Margaret Thatcher had earlier been made an honorary member), and no ethnic minority members until 2020 when Marti Burgess, a partner at Bevan Brittan, was appointed.[13] There is a list of members, with brief biographies, on the website.[14]

Venue claimed that the Merchant Venturers control 12 charities and 40 trust funds, and also a private unlimited company, SMV Investments, that has major investments in defence contracting, tobacco, genetically modified agriculture and the petroleum industry. Merchant Venturers serve on the boards of many local charitable and cultural organisations, and are guaranteed seats on the University of Bristol Court and the Downs Committee. It quotes Paul Burton of the University's School of Policy Studies as saying, "they exert quite a bit of influence and we, the people of Bristol, don't know much about them and can't hold them to account".[15]"

Nearly mistook it for a Yewtree hitlist.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Nah. Fuck that noise. Beat them with the wet end of the arm of their own arguments. If you can’t beat a racist in an argument you’ve got problems.

Trouble with it is if they have people with a similar view watching/listening even if you wipe the floor with them they'll accuse you of being the one making stuff up to support your argument or revise it in their head that you lost. There are people who think Johnson is bettering Starmer at PMQ's FFS. For some just the fact of being given airtime is proof enough that it has validity and truth (ignoring the fact the same could be said of the counterargument)

Of course the danger is it goes underground more, but I'm not looking to silence/ban it - just a necessity to back it up with incontrovertible data.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

Nearly mistook it for a Yewtree hitlist.

Here's a decent history of the plaque, the involvement of these Merchant Venturers and explains some of the anger. They sound a really nice bunch.

Colston & the Merchant Venturers – exposed again as slave traders and Tory bigots | Alternative Bristol

They know how this looks for them by the sounds of it, promising to educate themselves.

 

[Liquid Gold]

Nah. Fuck that noise. Beat them with the wet end of the arm of their own arguments. If you can’t beat a racist in an argument you’ve got problems.

Problem is living in a post truth society how do you beat someone with an argument when people just ignore what they don't agree with.

 

[shmmeee]

Problem is living in a post truth society how do you beat someone with an argument when people just ignore what they don't agree with.

And the problem with your tactic is “platforms” are free and numerous these days. If you keep them off the mainstream the same people just add in a layer of conspiracy about how the “MSM” is ignoring them because they’re telling the truth.

There’s always going to be idiots. Most people aren’t idiots. You gotta trust them. The alternative is having some governmental body decide which ideas are valid and no thank you very much.

What we shouldn’t do is the BBC tactic of having one shouty ill informed person from t he left argue with a shouty ill informed person from the right. Get the actual experts in who can argue the point properly from evidence. Not Eddie fucking Izzard or Ash Sakar.

 

[shmmeee]

Trouble with it is if they have people with a similar view watching/listening even if you wipe the floor with them they'll accuse you of being the one making stuff up to support your argument or revise it in their head that you lost. There are people who think Johnson is bettering Starmer at PMQ's FFS. For some just the fact of being given airtime is proof enough that it has validity and truth (ignoring the fact the same could be said of the counterargument)

Of course the danger is it goes underground more, but I'm not looking to silence/ban it - just a necessity to back it up with incontrovertible data.

There’s no such thing as incontrovertible data. That’s why “race realist” scientists still exist. Look at Grendel and his stats.

You need to poke and prod their ideas and expose the fundamental flaws.

Just because a few morons cling to their delusions doesn’t mean it’s not worthwhile. For your PMQs example, see the polling. On the whole it works.

 

[Ian1779]

And the problem with your tactic is “platforms” are free and numerous these days. If you keep them off the mainstream the same people just add in a layer of conspiracy about how the “MSM” is ignoring them because they’re telling the truth.

There’s always going to be idiots. Most people aren’t idiots. You gotta trust them. The alternative is having some governmental body decide which ideas are valid and no thank you very much.

What we shouldn’t do is the BBC tactic of having one shouty ill informed person from t he left argue with a shouty ill informed person from the right. Get the actual experts in who can argue the point properly from evidence. Not Eddie fucking Izzard or Ash Sakar.

I don’t disagree with the last point, but when you’re bringing in Farage, Grimes or Harwood representing for the right - they will brazenly lie without it being challenged. The most articulate and informed person from the left doesn’t get a word in because as soon as the words leave the mouths of these knob heads it’s nailed on as fact.

 

[shmmeee]

I don’t disagree with the last point, but when you’re bringing in Farage, Grimes or Harwood representing for the right - they will brazenly lie without it being challenged. The most articulate and informed person from the left doesn’t get a word in because as soon as the words leave the mouths of these knob heads it’s nailed on as fact.

I think my point is don’t make it a left vs right thing but a fact vs fiction thing.

Worth noting for example that support for immigration rises when Farage gets prominence. People don’t like him and he doesn’t help his own cause.

 

[Ian1779]

Who says he’s pandering? And by this logic no Labour MP should ever go on Question Time.

I have my doubts about how well he’ll handle it but talking to people who disagree with you is a vital part of politics.

In my opinion he shouldn’t have said that pulling down the statue was wrong. Now he did to his credit follow it through by saying it should have been taken down years ago. But you can guarantee that most people that were regular listeners would have stopped paying attention after his first sentence.

And yes - you do have to talk to people you disagree with. There are a multitudes of other platforms - it doesn’t have to be the one that employs Nigel Farage.

 

[Liquid Gold]

And the problem with your tactic is “platforms” are free and numerous these days. If you keep them off the mainstream the same people just add in a layer of conspiracy about how the “MSM” is ignoring them because they’re telling the truth.

There’s always going to be idiots. Most people aren’t idiots. You gotta trust them. The alternative is having some governmental body decide which ideas are valid and no thank you very much.

What we shouldn’t do is the BBC tactic of having one shouty ill informed person from t he left argue with a shouty ill informed person from the right. Get the actual experts in who can argue the point properly from evidence. Not Eddie fucking Izzard or Ash Sakar.

You’re projecting again, I didn’t say I agree with deplatforming.

 

[shmmeee]

In my opinion he shouldn’t have said that pulling down the statue was wrong. Now he did to his credit follow it through by saying it should have been taken down years ago. But you can guarantee that most people that were regular listeners would have stopped paying attention after his first sentence.

And yes - you do have to talk to people you disagree with. There are a multitudes of other platforms - it doesn’t have to be the one that employs Nigel Farage.

Most people don’t support vigilante justice and will probably agree with him. If we’re going to win we need to talk to the country and not ourselves TBH. I don’t think pulling down a statue is the hill to die on.

 

[Ian1779]

Most people don’t support vigilante justice and will probably agree with him. If we’re going to win we need to talk to the country and not ourselves TBH. I don’t think pulling down a statue is the hill to die on.

No it probably isn’t - but it is part of a wider movement that Labour should be supportive of. There are a lot of BAME voters that are looking at the Labour Party wondering why all of a sudden they have been abandoned. Lisa Nandy yesterday saying that she didn’t know if Trump was a racist... I mean really??

Maybe not a major point in isolation but part of a pattern of other statements and announcements over the last 6/8 weeks

 

[shmmeee]

You’re projecting again, I didn’t say I agree with deplatforming.

Then I don’t get your argument. Sorry.

 

[RegTheDonk]

Minneapolis City Council are announcing they are going to disband the police department. How does that work? They are saying they've tried reform in the past and it hasn't worked.

Whatever way they do it (perhapls like when the RUC re-evolved into PSNI) it seems that the people in charge there have listened to the protests and are trying to make a change for the better.
NOW that's been achieved, can the public acknowledge that and stop the looting, smashing up places and fighting with the cops?

 

[Ring Of Steel]

Whatever way they do it (perhapls like when the RUC re-evolved into PSNI) it seems that the people in charge there have listened to the protests and are trying to make a change for the better.
NOW that's been achieved, can the public acknowledge that and stop the looting, smashing up places and fighting with the cops?

Is there still a statue of Cecil Rhodes at Oxford University?

 

[David O'Day]

Is there still a statue of Cecil Rhodes at Oxford University?

Yep

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[Ring Of Steel]

Yep

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One of Rhodes's primary motivations in politics and business was his professed belief that the Anglo-Saxon race was, to quote his will, "the first race in the world".[3] Under the reasoning that "the more of the world we inhabit the better it is for the human race",[3] he advocated vigorous settler colonialism and ultimately a reformation of the British Empire so that each component would be self-governing and represented in a single parliament in London. Ambitions such as these, juxtaposed with his policies regarding indigenous Africans in the Cape Colony—describing the country's native black population as largely "in a state of barbarism", he advocated their governance as a "subject race"

 

[RegTheDonk]

Is there still a statue of Cecil Rhodes at Oxford University?

So what are you asking for? What do you want?

 

[Ring Of Steel]

So what are you asking for? What do you want?

In this particular instance attempting to make the point that just because one statue was pulled down, thats not going to solve everything and we can't- or at least shouldn't- all just go back to how we were before as if nothing happened. Nobody is calling for looting and people getting injured as far as I can see, thats just kicking off for the sake of it which deflects from the point. However commemorating & celebrating racists and white supremacists in the place which produced 11 of the last 14 PMs, in this day and age is that really necessary?

 

[Grendel]

Is there still a statue of Cecil Rhodes at Oxford University?

You know full well there is so why the grandstanding?

 

[Nick]

With all of the anger and stuff about police brutality in America, on the way to the M6 did anybody stop off at where one of the most serious cases in the last few years happened?