Competitive Squad Get it out there lads................. (3 Viewers)

[dongonzalos]

The council say any deal for 50% of the stadium will only be agreed, if whoever gets it agrees to make the squad competitive.

Sisu are releasing players left right and centre.
So if they tell the council we will make 5 new signings that sounds quite good.
However as fans this is our chance to get it out there what competitive really is I make it 11 signings 7 experienced freebies and 4 season long loanees.

I have emailed Cllr Mutton to express this view and contacted the telegraph asking them to do a story reviewing what we need.

You may or may not agree with 11 but I think you may find it will be more that 4-5.

I think it is important whilst talks are going on, we need to try and define what makes a squad competitive

Someone else has suggested 20 experienced, 4 raw kids, 4 loanees I agree with that.

Below I am been very generous on some players classing them as experienced.

We currently have 27 if the 5 go that we think will go that leaves 22, 9 of whom are untested kids.

So my logic is 7 experienced signings, 4 loanees.

Gives you a squad of 28, 20 experienced, 4 raw kids 4 loanees.

We need to get this out there as fact that it is the minimum to make us competitive

Please get the message out there by whatever means you can so we can set the goal posts


This is the squad on the offal

1 Joe Murphy Goalkeeper Exp Pro
2 Richard Keogh Defender Leaving
3 Chris Hussey Defender Exp Pro
6 James McPake Defender Leaving
7 David Bell Midfielder Exp Pro
8 Carl Baker Midfielder Exp Pro
11 Gary McSheffrey Striker Exp Pro
12 Gary Deegan Midfielder Exp Pro
13 Chris Dunn Goalkeeper Exp Pro (I am been generous)
14 Cody McDonald Striker Exp Pro
15 Martin Cranie Defender Leaving
19 Roy O'Donovan Striker Leaving
24 Richard Wood Defender Exp Pro
26 Jordan Clarke Defender Exp Pro (I am been generous)
27 Shaun Jeffers Striker Raw
28 Callum Wilson Striker Raw
29 Billy Daniels Striker Raw
30 Nathan Cameron Defender Experienced Pro (I am been generous)
31 Cyrus Christie Defender Experienced Pro (I am been generous)
32 Conor Thomas Midfielder Experienced Pro (I am been generous)
33 Lee Burge Goalkeeper Raw
34 Gael Bigirimana Midfielder Leaving
35 Joshua Ruffels Midfielder Raw
36 Aaron Phillips Midfielder Raw
37 Jordan Willis Defender Raw
38 Will Roberts Midfielder Raw
39 Joe Henderson Raw

 

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[sky blue john]

" The council say any deal for 50% of the stadium will only be agreed, if whoever gets it agrees to make the squad competitive."

The above point if true says to me that if the council are saying whoever then they must be talking to more than one set of interested parties ?

 

[We'll_live_and_die]

" The council say any deal for 50% of the stadium will only be agreed, if whoever gets it agrees to make the squad competitive."

The above point if true says to me that if the council are saying whoever then they must be talking to more than one set of interested parties ?

The above point if true will have a link?

 

[smileycov]

You say SISU are releasing "Left Right and Centre"....who has actually left? While i am not a SISU fan, you have to be accurate if you want to go to print say, or get the paper to back you. You claim some of the above are leaving, not actually factual yet is it!!

I prefer to wait until they have released a few or the embargo is lifted and they do not buy.
Before we start kicking off about the squad being ripped apart before it has!! They have "apparantely turned down an offer for keogh" is that not positive action?

 

[dongonzalos]

I hardly think getting a message out there saying this is what we think is competitive can really be described as kicking off.

There is a bidding war going on for Keogh so there is a good chance he will be going.

Clingan has gone.

Platt has gone

It is very likely cranie will be offered a contract by a championship club.

Mcpake is available to hibs for 100k

An offer of 800k to 1 million will only not happen if biggi himself says no. We cannot afford to turn down 1 million.

The council have said they will not sell 50 % of the Ricoh to SISU unless they provide a business plan that includes making the team competitive.

I have used the term whoever as some people think others are involved I do not know who is involved.

Is it really unreasonable to get the message out there. This is what we the fans class as competitive.

If any or all of the above players don't leave then you can scale down the need for transfers accordingly.

Try and get ahead of the game for once and influence negiotions whilst it is happening.

The deal could be done. SISU or whoever could show the council a business plan for 3 to 5 signings in the same week the above mentioned people agree to go.

3 to 5 signings sound good then on paper but in reality it does not make us competitive.

 

[sky blue john]

Sisu definately stuck between a rock and a hard place currently.
Obviously they can't seem to be selling anyone before the stadium deal is done.

 

[dongonzalos]

They have been asked to

Show they have the money to do the deal
Show they have a business plan to develop to arena
Show they have a business plan that includes making the team competitive

Are these 3 criteria too much to ask for.

Is the fans getting a message out there saying what they define as competitive really that outrageous and kicking off.

The term door and mat come to mind.

 

[SkyBlue_Bear83]

Listing Christie and Thomas as "exp pro" isn't being generous it is being stupid and desperate, basically anyone who has played over 5 games you have listed as experienced pro.

I say we need 10 signings, we can lose Cranie, ROD, Bell. Anyone else that leaves on top of that we need another signing.

 

[torchomatic]

Platt and Cranie went of their own choice, they weren't forced out.

I want Keogh to stay, but we are skint and getting skinter by the hour, so a bid of £1M would never been turned down by any club in our position regardless of who the owners were.

As for Cranie, he is a good defender and I will be surprised if we can keep hold of him. Not particularly because of who owns the club but because of the package he will be offered by teams in a higher league. I don't know why fans are so surprised to see the squad breaking up.

The cupboard is bare.

I hardly think getting a message out there saying this is what we think is competitive can really be described as kicking off.

There is a bidding war going on for Keogh so there is a good chance he will be going.

Clingan has gone.

Platt has gone

It is very likely cranie will be offered a contract by a championship club.

Mcpake is available to hibs for 100k

An offer of 800k to 1 million will only not happen if biggi himself says no. We cannot afford to turn down 1 million.

The council have said they will not sell 50 % of the Ricoh to SISU unless they provide a business plan that includes making the team competitive.

I have used the term whoever as some people think others are involved I do not know who is involved.

Is it really unreasonable to get the message out there. This is what we the fans class as competitive.

If any or all of the above players don't leave then you can scale down the need for transfers accordingly.

Try and get ahead of the game for once and influence negiotions whilst it is happening.

The deal could be done. SISU or whoever could show the council a business plan for 3 to 5 signings in the same week the above mentioned people agree to go.

3 to 5 signings sound good then on paper but in reality it does not make us competitive.

 

[dongonzalos]

Platt and Cranie went of their own choice, they weren't forced out.

I want Keogh to stay, but we are skint and getting skinter by the hour, so a bid of £1M would never been turned down by any club in our position regardless of who the owners were.

As for Cranie, he is a good defender and I will be surprised if we can keep hold of him. Not particularly because of who owns the club but because of the package he will be offered by teams in a higher league. I don't know why fans are so surprised to see the squad breaking up.

The cupboard is bare.

Yep agree with all of that, however we are getting side tracked from the point.

The talks are moving at a fast pace.

One of the conditions of the talks is investment in the team to make it competitive.

Who determines competitive. If you have an opinion what competitive is. Now is the time to express your opinion.

Not once the deal is done, as by then your opinion will count for nothing.

It may count for nothing anyway. Alternatively you may influence what the council asks for.

Don't try and it will definately count for nothing. Wait and you maybe too late.

Give it a go and who knows

 

[dongonzalos]

Listing Christie and Thomas as "exp pro" isn't being generous it is being stupid and desperate, basically anyone who has played over 5 games you have listed as experienced pro.

I say we need 10 signings, we can lose Cranie, ROD, Bell. Anyone else that leaves on top of that we need another signing.

Just trying to compromise and get a balance and not sound too alarming.

Just dont want to get sidetracked from the point tell the council what you think it will take to make this squad competitive. They are currently in talks about this.

Your opinion could be important, it may get ignored but give it a go.

 

[dongonzalos]

Tweeted the telegraph trying to see if they would run a story about how many potential replacements we will need to be 'competitive'. Unfortunately they seem to be of the view that the players have to leave first.


What concerns me is that the talks are not waiting on this and the term competitive will be getting thrashed our there as we speak.

Waiting IMO will be too late.

 

[SonofErnie]

Tweeted the telegraph trying to see if they would run a story about how many potential replacements we will need to be 'competitive'. Unfortunately they seem to be of the view that the players have to leave first.


What concerns me is that the talks are not waiting on this and the term competitive will be getting thrashed our there as we speak.

Waiting IMO will be too late.

I can see from the numerous postings you have made and responded to, that this issue is very close to your heart, however I'm not sure how you are ever going to be in a position to define what competitive means in this context i.e. legally enforceable. In fact it could end up being deemed an unfair contract clause.

Bringing in the right number of replacements will not guarantee a competitive team, by which I assume you mean one which challenges for promotion ? And if by some major fluke we end up back in the Premier league in the next 5 years, what will a competitive squad look like then ?

I'm not trying to dampen your obvious enthusiasm for this cause, but I'm not sure exactly what you would like the Council to insist on in their negotiations that is more specific than requiring a competitive squad, which after all some clubs have failed to achieve even after spending significant sums of money.

I'd be interested to know your thoughts

 

[dongonzalos]

It is the council, who and I will stand to be corrected if I have it wrong. However I am sure have stated any deal for half the stadium must include a business plan that includes investment in the team in order to make the team competitive.

I assume by making such a statement they believe this is possible.

They will I again assume have an idea in their head's what defines competitive otherwise how can it be a criteria of the deal.

My point is the council will have an idea of competitive, sisu will have an idea of competitive and we the fans will have an idea.

I think whilst deals are getting drawn up we the fans should not miss out on getting our view over about what we see as competitive.

Myself personally I would like to have a side that with a bit of luck and hardwork. Has a chance of getting 6th.

I know this is a personal opinion but I think a squad of 28 is required. However I don't think only 11 of those 28 should be experienced professionals and the rest untested kids.

If all the players leave that are speculated to leave.
Then I think each one needs to be replaced. I am not unrealistic and expect like for like just free transfers and season long loans including some Wiley characters at this level.

You mix that with what is left you may have a chance.

Let's not forget if the speculation is true as well of the wages freed from fattie clingan Platt mcpake biggie rod cranie Keogh Clarke Harris. We may have around 2 million coming in in fees.

How this is agreed in a contract is obviously for the council to determine as they have set it as a criteria if a deal is to be done.

The only way I can see it working is if the deal is written up agreed in principle. Council and sisu agree that each player that has left will be replaced and a squad of 28 with only 6 untested kids in it.

This is just an example whatever variation of this will be determined by whatever the agreement of competitive is.

Then once these players are in and the squad is ready SISU will have proved their commitment to the team. Get the paperwork signed off.

You have not damped my view you ask very valid questions.

My feeling is for the first time in 5 years we have someone fighting our corner. Someone who has something SISU want and so can make them listen.

We the fans now need to let the council know what we think would make this team competitive. However we must also be realistic.

 

[dongonzalos]

Apologies for the long post but it is not easy to put it in a paragraph.

 

[SonofErnie]

That was my point really. There are many views on what constitutes 'competitive' and how do you a. Define it b. Put it into a contract and c. Police/enforce it. As much as it is an admirable thing to aim for I don't think it will be enforceable.

 

[dongonzalos]

That was my point really. There are many views on what constitutes 'competitive' and how do you a. Define it b. Put it into a contract and c. Police/enforce it. As much as it is an admirable thing to aim for I don't think it will be enforceable.

Yes the council may have their own idea of how to enforce it as I believe they have stipulated it as criteria and unless they can enforce then what is the point of stipulating it and coming out in the press saying it has to be the case or there will be no deal.

Maybe they have different ideas but I think don't sign the deal till the players our here in skyblue shirts.

I can't really come up with another way.

 

[Grendel]

They can't stipulate amount of players signed that's saying they know what constitutes football strategy.

The only thing they can ever do is have some gaurentee that a portion of revenue is spent on the playing side of the club.

 

[dongonzalos]

This may sound a bit far fetched but you could also hire an independent person. Say a experienced manager of old. To review the squad as the players come in. When they say yes it is realistic that that squad could challenge for 6th. Sign the deal.

I know I will get ripped for this one but just an idea. Get a manager who has recently done it a league one level.

 

[Sky Blue Kid]

Torchomatic.....Platt and Cranie went of their own choice, they weren't forced out.



Cranie hasn't gone yet

 

[ccfcway]

This may sound a bit far fetched but you could also hire an independent person. Say a experienced manager of old. To review the squad as the players come in. When they say yes it is realistic that that squad could challenge for 6th. Sign the deal.

I know I will get ripped for this one but just an idea. Get a manager who has recently done it a league one level.

CCFC employ manager who has done it at League One level,

If only !

 

[dongonzalos]

They can't stipulate amount of players signed that's saying they know what constitutes football strategy.

The only thing they can ever do is have some gaurentee that a portion of revenue is spent on the playing side of the club.

Yes fair point. How about not signing the deal though until they are happy with SISU's investments in the playing side. So it is not stipulated in the contract. However the deal is not done till sufficient investment is made first.

Again it would need an independent source to determine what is sufficient.

Also that way Duffy once this happened Andy Thorn really would have to do the business no excuses.

 

[Sky Blue Kid]

This may sound a bit far fetched but you could also hire an independent person. Say a experienced manager of old. To review the squad as the players come in. When they say yes it is realistic that that squad could challenge for 6th. Sign the deal.

I know I will get ripped for this one but just an idea. Get a manager who has recently done it a league one level.

I would never "Rip your statement apart" mate, you've got ba**s and passion. You've got great ideas that deserve to blossom.:claping hands:

 

[dongonzalos]

CCFC employ manager who has done it at League One level,

If only !

I knew that was coming

 

[Sky Blue Kid]

I would never "Rip your statement apart" mate, you've got ba**s and passion. You've got great ideas that deserve to blossom.:claping hands:

Before anyone makes a comment, NO I'm not being sarcastic.

 

[Grendel]

CCFC employ manager who has done it at League One level,

If only !

Yes I nearly laughed out loud at this. If as this post implies the council should act like directors of football ensuring the owners are commited to promotion challenges then the manager would be out the door as statistically he is the worst in our history! No point in rambling on about poor squads he has no track record.

Really though this is all nonsense. What owners have to demonstrate surely is that the club is run as a solvent stand alone business. It could very reasonably argue that with projected attendances of 7,000 next season that the squad has to be small. It can't be seen to run at a loss. Councils have no jurisdiction in dictating private business strategy and they never should.

 

[dongonzalos]

Before anyone makes a comment, NO I'm not being sarcastic.

Ha ha cheers

 

[thegameaintstraight]

That was my point really. There are many views on what constitutes 'competitive' and how do you a. Define it b. Put it into a contract and c. Police/enforce it. As much as it is an admirable thing to aim for I don't think it will be enforceable.

A simple definition of 'competitive' - " Will achieve promotion 2013". You can make up your own contract conditions for non compliance. SISU out springs to mind.

Just joking SoE, you are absolutely correct.

 

[dongonzalos]

Yes I nearly laughed out loud at this. If as this post implies the council should act like directors of football ensuring the owners are commited to promotion challenges then the manager would be out the door as statistically he is the worst in our history! No point in rambling on about poor squads he has no track record.

Really though this is all nonsense. What owners have to demonstrate surely is that the club is run as a solvent stand alone business. It could very reasonably argue that with projected attendances of 7,000 next season that the squad has to be small. It can't be seen to run at a loss. Councils have no jurisdiction in dictating private business strategy and they never should.

So why then have they stipulated that a business plan requiring investment in the team to make the team competitive is required before any deal will be done.

I hope I am not losing it but I am sure I read that in a quote from the council.

 

[Sky Blue Kid]

Yes I nearly laughed out loud at this. If as this post implies the council should act like directors of football ensuring the owners are commited to promotion challenges then the manager would be out the door as statistically he is the worst in our history! No point in rambling on about poor squads he has no track record.

Really though this is all nonsense. What owners have to demonstrate surely is that the club is run as a solvent stand alone business. It could very reasonably argue that with projected attendances of 7,000 next season that the squad has to be small. It can't be seen to run at a loss. Councils have no jurisdiction in dictating private business strategy and they never should.

The one thing you omit kduffy.....Coventry Council CARE about our Football Club. anyone with an ounce brains will realise that a team cannot run 3-4 experienced Pro's and the other 12 being kids. 16 players being the bare minimum.
There has to be a line drawn in the sand, That SISU MUST adhere to. You sure you're not working for SISU?.....Just a thought!

 

[Grendel]

So why then have they stipulated that a business plan requiring investment in the team to make the team competitive is required before any deal will be done.

I hope I am not losing it but I am sure I read that in a quote from the council.

You are talking specifics though. As stipulated above any agreement has to be on percentage of turnover. What can be defined as competitive? That once a budget is in place the council can dictate who and how many are signed? The manager may decide to spend 75% of the budget on one player. Are you saying mutton and his cronies can veto that?

Also please remember 90% of the electorate donor actively support the club so the council cannot pure focus on this. Clauses have to be very generic.

 

[Grendel]

The one thing you omit kduffy.....Coventry Council CARE about our Football Club. anyone with an ounce brains will realise that a team cannot run 3-4 experienced Pro's and the other 12 being kids. 16 players being the bare minimum.
There has to be a line drawn in the sand, That SISU MUST adhere to. You sure you're not working for SISU?.....Just a thought!

The council are elected to perform many things running a football club supporters by a tiny fraction of the electorate is not one of them.

 

[Sky Blue Kid]

The council are elected to perform many things running a football club supporters by a tiny fraction of the electorate is not one of them.

As long as the Council stick by what they said(No sell out unless the team is made competitive) imo minimum 25-30 experienced Pro's
I will be happy.

 

[dongonzalos]

"Whilst I have seen a number of options I haven't seen a firm business case which shows adequate levels of resources will go into the football club to make it competitive next season."

I have never said I want the council to run the football club.

This is a massive deal for the council and I am sure they will allocate the sufficient time to it. Enough time they think is necessary to get a result they are happy with and the electorate are happy with.
Whilst only a small proportion of the electorate attend the Ricoh. The deal affects all, as it impacts on council budgets and fundings. I believe The Ricoh is a source of income for the council, it has invested a lot of the electorates money into it. So it will allocate the right time to it.

However again that is getting side tracked.

The above quote shows the council has an idea about what funding has to go into the team to make it competitive. Otherwise how do they know this has not been met so far.

Hence they must have a definition in their heads.

Is it the same as ours.

 

[shmmeee]

No point buying in subs when we have kids, I'd be happy to fill in the blanks on this team then everyone not mentioned is backup. We have a decent squad and I don't think we need 30 players.

Murphy
Clarke ????? Wood ????? (NEED another LB as we have none coming through)
?????
????? Thomas
McSheffrey
????? McDonald

That's 5 signings and I think would make us competitive, obviously if we get key injuries then loans need to be looked at, but I think that's a fair balance between running a tight ship and spending on players who won't get a game. It gives us this squad:

GK: Murphy, Dunn, Burge - Looks good to me for a promotion push
LB: ????, Hussey - I like Hussey, but we do need backup and as I said no point in buying subs
CBs: ?????, Wood, Cameron, Willis, Henderson - a little light, but again any injuries to the first two would require a loanee
RB: Clarke, Christie - Looks good for L1
DCM/CM: ????, ????, Deegan, Thomas, Bell, Baker, Ruffles, Bigi - You'd hope the backup three of Deegan, Bell and Baker would be able to cut it in L1, but this is our weakest area and one we desperately need decent players in. Norwood would be a step in the right direction
AM: McSheffrey, Baker, Ruffles, Roberts - Again a little weak and I'm reusing Ruffles and Baker, but would be OK and Sheffers isn't really injury prone
ST: ????, McDonald, Jeffers, Daniels - Again quite weak past the first two, maybe get a loanee in here

So worst case scenario is 5 signings (CB, LB, CM, CM, ST) and 2 loans depending on squad fitness (CB, ST)

That's the minimum I want to see. What I don't want is a return to the bad old days of quantity over quality and you have a load of deadwood sat around not playing on 3 year deals.

EDIT: Oh, forgot to say that includes ROD, McPake, Cranie and Keogh going, to be honest I can't see Bigi going and if he did I think we've got better anyway, not been impressed since his first few games really.