Fans allowed in? - Updated! (2 Viewers)

[shmmeee]

This just arrived on the BBC website

"Fans in stadiums: Boris Johnson says supporters could return in England in October"


Fans in stadiums: Boris Johnson says supporters could return in England in October

Lots has of conditions. Can’t see us being able to get more than 5-6k in under those rules would we?

 

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[steve cooper]

But you’ve got to take it as a whole. Like I say you don’t dispute terror attack deaths because someone had a heart attack from the bomb noise or was ill anyway, the event as a whole caused all those people to die who wouldn’t have otherwise. Same with the pandemic.

Also look at the States where they’ve bought into this “it ain’t so bad” nonsense and have over 100k dead.

Focusing on death certificates is just a distraction. They aren’t some solid gold proof of death cause, all deaths tend to be a mix of issues coming together. You might get hit by a car and die from drowning in the internal bleeding, should we not put down car crash as cause of death?

What matters is the headline figure of how many extra people died.

This whole thing is really complicated, and beyond my understanding because of lack of full details. Say for example someone died of cancer because they were too frightend to go to hospital for treatment, but the hospital is open for them to attend. now we are talking about the fear of catching the virus having a material influence upon their death. Can this be attributed to Covid as being the cause?
someone else with exactly the same condition could decide to get treatment and may survive.

 

[shmmeee]

This whole thing is really complicated, and beyond my understanding because of lack of full details. Say for example someone died of cancer because they were too frightend to go to hospital for treatment, but the hospital is open for them to attend. now we are talking about the fear of catching the virus having a material influence upon their death. Can this be attributed to Covid as being the cause?
someone else with exactly the same condition could decide to get treatment and may survive.

Yes it can because their fear is of COVID. Their death is COVID related and they wouldn’t have died if there wasn’t a pandemic.

Edit: to expand on this, it’s about how well we’ve done managing it. Government action to reduce fear includes clear messaging, safety procedures in place, etc. No different to reducing deaths directly from COVID in healthy people.

You could easily say someone only died from COVID directly because they didn’t take enough precautions, or had a certain condition, or were a certain age, until you salami slice away every single death. What would be the point in that? That’s why the only sensible measure is deviation from the norm (excess deaths).

Excess deaths also has the benefit of being a lot harder for governments to hide, and cuts right through the silly “cause of death” arguments. An authoritarian regime could lean on medics to record something else, but hiding the fact people are dead full stop is a lot harder in most countries.

The government is pushing this nonsense specifically because it prevents them from being compared with similar countries and undoubtedly coming off badly.

 

[better days]

I’m not being pessimistic or optimistic. I’m living in a place that has put up another load of restrictions for the 2nd time, meaning I can’t work, exercise or even go for a pint. Nothing to do with optimism.

I've been to HK a few times so have a good idea of how things are there - parts of London probably have similar density
Out of interest your first post said the 2nd wave is worse than the first
Is that in terms of the severity of the illness or the number of cases?

 

[kg82]

I've been to HK a few times so have a good idea of how things are there - parts of London probably have similar density
Out of interest your first post said the 2nd wave is worse than the first
Is that in terms of the severity of the illness or the number of cases?

I’ll say numbers for now, but there’s been more deaths than the in the initial outbreak (that may have been people catching it before though).

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

We have to go back to normal eventually, if you will forever be worried about people breathing near you then I'd suggest staying indoors for the next 20 years to be certain.. It's for the best


BTW, the death rate for actual covid is nowhere near what you are being fed... They've put it down as a cause of death for literally everything and anything...
Its a total disgrace the nonsense we've been fed over the last few months

And your medical and scientific expertise is ..........

 

[mark82]

And your medical and scientific expertise is ..........

 

[fernandopartridge]

I've been to HK a few times so have a good idea of how things are there - parts of London probably have similar density
Out of interest your first post said the 2nd wave is worse than the first
Is that in terms of the severity of the illness or the number of cases?

Inner London boroughs are far more densely populated per km

 

[kg82]

Inner London boroughs are far more densely populated per km

Nah, the area I live (Mong Kok) is the most densely populated area on earth. But you go to the new territories and some of the islands and there’s nothing for miles!

 

[clint van damme]

Nah, the area I live (Mong Kok) is the most densely populated area on earth. But you go to the new territories and some of the islands and there’s nothing for miles!

I went to the New Territories for the racing a Sha Tin. It was mobbed and it wasn't even a major meeting!

Some stadium.

 

[shmmeee]

Nah, the area I live (Mong Kok) is the most densely populated area on earth. But you go to the new territories and some of the islands and there’s nothing for miles!

heh Mong cock

No you grow up.

 

[kg82]

I went to the New Territories for the racing a Sha Tin. It was mobbed and it wasn't even a major meeting!

Some stadium.

Well yeah, Sha Tin’s a bit crowded! Great racecourse though, better than happy valley on HK island, in my opinion.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

My argument is based on the fact that people have had covid, recovered then died of something different several weeks later and its being recorded still as covid.

We've also had multiple cases of people dying from natural causes, heart attacks etc etc and have also had their deaths being recorded as covid... This is a travesty.. It's also a massive lie

I'm not disputing that covid can kill, I'm definitely disputing it's severity and it's mortality rate

1% high? Ebola is at over 30%

But what if Covid damaged their lungs and they died of a different respiratory illness months later they'd have survived but for the damage? It remains Covid related.

 

[Evo1883]

[/QUOTE]

But what if Covid damaged their lungs and they died of a different respiratory illness months later they'd have survived but for the damage? It remains Covid related.

It's like saying somebody who died from being hit by a bus 3 months after the end of ww2... Died because of ww2...

This is basically what's happening today

 

[Evo1883]

And your medical and scientific expertise is ..........

Same as yours I suspect.. There isn't really anything I've said that's out of the ordinary... That's why there is to be an urgent inquiry into the actual death figures...

Because they are false

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

It's like saying somebody who died from being hit by a bus 3 months after the end of ww2... Died because of ww2...

This is basically what's happening today
[/QUOTE]

No it's not because there's no causal link. If someone dies of the flu because thier lungs can't absorb as much oxygen because they were damaged by Covid is a causal link.

 

[mark82]

It's like saying somebody who died from being hit by a bus 3 months after the end of ww2... Died because of ww2...

This is basically what's happening today

Not really. You can see from excess deaths that the figures aren't far off. Trying to argue it's not as bad as people are making out is lunacy. Also, let's not forget that deaths are only so "low" because precautionary actions were taken. Would be much higher otherwise.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Same as yours I suspect.. There isn't really anything I've said that's out of the ordinary... That's why there is to be an urgent inquiry into the actual death figures...

Because they are false

What about people that've died and not been tested? Covid could be cause/factor of death and not been recorded as such.

 

[usskyblue]

It's like saying somebody who died from being hit by a bus 3 months after the end of ww2... Died because of ww2...

This is basically what's happening today

Covid only needs one person to carry the virus to retain the potential of returning to square one, or worse.

Read whatever you want in to the fact that it’s only politicians that don’t won’t you to know that m8...

 

[Evo1883]

It's like saying somebody who died from being hit by a bus 3 months after the end of ww2... Died because of ww2...

This is basically what's happening today

No it's not because there's no causal link. If someone dies of the flu because thier lungs can't absorb as much oxygen because they were damaged by Covid is a causal link.
[/QUOTE]

Most people don't get to a point where covid is that serious, some people don't even realise they had it and felt fine.. It's a massive reach to accept the cause of death as covid 19 several weeks after recovery... Massive

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Average deaths is the best way to measure, and they're up by > 45k.

Anyway, I came over here to avoid this kind of thing, there's enough of this off topic, and now I'm contributing too!

 

[mark82]

Just to also point out, the 44,000 number published by the government is deaths from confirmed cases with actual diagnosis from a test only. The number where Covid has been listed on the death certificate as a contributing factor is higher than that at 54,000. Total excess deaths is 65,000 (all figures as of late June).

 

[Evo1883]

Average deaths is the best way to measure, and they're up by > 45k.

Anyway, I came over here to avoid this kind of thing, there's enough of this off topic, and now I'm contributing too!

Of course, but we discussed that people are having illnesses untreated and serious health problems too because they won't attend doctors or hospitals....

 

[Evo1883]

Just to also point out, the 44,000 number published by the government is deaths from confirmed cases with actual diagnosis from a test only. The number where Covid has been listed on the death certificate as a contributing factor is higher than that at 54,000. Total excess deaths is 65,000 (all figures as of late June).

Of course, but what's happened is the government has realised that people have died several weeks after recovery (makes sense anyway as most victims are elderly and most people that die naturally are elderly) but have been recorded as covid 19 on the certificate.. This information is false isn't it

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Of course, but we discussed that people are having illnesses untreated and serious health problems too because they won't attend doctors or hospitals....

And also avoiding illnesses because they're not going out so not catching other diseases, whilst also not having car crashes etc.

There's zero doubt there have been a vast amount of extra deaths on the average. There's one thing that's changed. The evidence is all there.

 

[Evo1883]

And also avoiding illnesses because they're not going out so not catching other diseases, whilst also not having car crashes etc.

There's zero doubt there have been a vast amount of extra deaths on the average. There's one thing that's changed. The evidence is all there.

Well 170,000 people die every year through heart disease

Less than 2000 a year in a car crash .. That's not a great comparison


They've probably avoided the common cold though

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Well 170,000 people die every year through heart disease

Less than 2000 a year in a car crash .. That's not a great comparison

OK, so you're saying 65k (over a third) more have died of heart disease, in a quarter of a year through not getting treatment?

It actually proves my point.

 

[Evo1883]

OK, so you're saying 65k (over a third) more have died of heart disease, in a quarter of a year through not getting treatment?

It actually proves my point.

Like is said I believe the numbers are massively underestimated especially in elderly people.. How many under 65s have died?

And its the government who are saying the numbers are probably wrong and need to be urgently looked at...


There were over 40,000 excess deaths in 1999/2000s winter season, it does happen

And again in 14/15 too

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

And also avoiding illnesses because they're not going out so not catching other diseases, whilst also not having car crashes etc.

There's zero doubt there have been a vast amount of extra deaths on the average. There's one thing that's changed. The evidence is all there.

Yep ochums razor

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Where's Dom when you need him for a bit of sanity, and rational discussion!

 

[Evo1883]

Anyway haven't you heard, we've a new confirmed stadium to look forward too lol

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Like is said I believe the numbers are massively underestimated especially in elderly people.. How many under 65s have died?

And its the government who are saying the numbers are probably wrong and need to be urgently looked at...


There were over 40,000 excess deaths in 1999/2000s winter season, it does happen

And again in 14/15 too

There is far more important things that need to be urgently looked at regarding our handling of this crisis than recording. Dealing with the situation on the ground is far more urgent than the admin around it.

Face it, it's another example of the govt looking to shift blame or fudge the figures to fit in with their own desires to allow the economy to open up. Economy can't open up because figures are too high so change the figures until it can.

 

[Evo1883]

There is far more important things that need to be urgently looked at regarding our handling of this crisis than recording. Dealing with the situation on the ground is far more urgent than the admin around it.

Face it, it's another example of the govt looking to shift blame or fudge the figures to fit in with their own desires to allow the economy to open up. Economy can't open up because figures are too high so change the figures until it can.

I think proper recording of deaths actually DOES or WOULD help deal with the crisis better.. But at the end of the day I doubt we will agree... So it's probably best if its just about the footy PUSB

 

[chiefdave]

Like is said I believe the numbers are massively underestimated especially in elderly people.. How many under 65s have died?

And its the government who are saying the numbers are probably wrong and need to be urgently looked at...


There were over 40,000 excess deaths in 1999/2000s winter season, it does happen

And again in 14/15 too

Very rough figures and obviously it could take months / years to have the data properly analysed but it looks like around 10% of excess deaths are under 65.

Are you suggesting deaths of anyone over the age of 65 are acceptable? Life expectancy in the UK is over 80 years so drawing a line at 65 seems rather arbitrary.

Of course we have years with excess deaths. I would suggest that when that occurs there is probably a reason for it (harsh winter, flu outbreak, ineffective flu vaccine spring to mind as possibilities) and that is looked into with the hope lessons can be learnt and a repeat avoided.

What seems to be increasingly suggested is that we have a known cause of excess death and we just accept the deaths and go about business as usual.

 

[wingy]

There will be attempts at rewriting this .
There are five years to do it .
The bloke sanctioning this is a proven liar almost on a daily basis.
O will stick with the medics and scientists.
There is an age element evident .
Both in terms of effects of the pathogen and perception of tackling it or not.
This age discrepancy is going to pose a huge problem should a secondary lockdown be required .
Unofficially it could represent a policy like euthenasia .
What would the policy become or look like if the 20-40 demographic were the hardest hit.
Trouble ahead potentially .