Take the knee (19 Viewers)

[clint van damme]

I don't think it is. Their excuse seems to be the burning of a Union flag by a rogue protester. If I found myself in the minority not booing I'd have walked out.

Ok. Not racist, genuine grievance - seriously?

 

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[Brighton Sky Blue]

Ok. Not racist, genuine grievance - seriously?

I don't think this is coming across as I wanted. I mean they are attempting to use a rogue protester to discredit the wider movement.

 

[clint van damme]

I don't think this is coming across as I wanted. I mean they are attempting to use a rogue protester to discredit the wider movement.

They certainly are and I can say quite confidentlly they would have booked whatever.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Haven’t seen anyone row back this fast since Steve Redgrave’s day.

Would you defend a black player raising their fist in the name of equality or not? I’m not asking because there’s a right or wrong answer, I’m asking because you profess to know more about the players’ intentions than the players themselves.

The days where protest is only allowed if it fits the parameters of what you personally find acceptable are long gone. This is their fight, not yours.

I don't defend Black Power salutes, no. Perhaps the gesture means something different to those standing doing it, I don't know. But I'm not wrong in saying what that movement stood for and as I keep saying, the black community itself was heavily divided on it as a symbol.

You're starting to piss me off, just call me a racist and be done with it.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

They certainly are and I can say quite confidentlly they would have booked whatever.

Yes so my point was never that they were specifically booing Kazim-Richards for his salute.

 

[dancers lance]

Haven’t seen anyone row back this fast since Steve Redgrave’s day.

Would you defend a black player raising their fist in the name of equality or not? I’m not asking because there’s a right or wrong answer, I’m asking because you profess to know more about the players’ intentions than the players themselves.

The days where protest is only allowed if it fits the parameters of what you personally find acceptable are long gone. This is their fight, not yours.

However, surely the 'This is their fight, not yours' does nothing for a cause that is desperate for open dialogue. When you close down debate, and do not allow a counterpoint with explanation you submit to supposition. To not allow debate waters down any actions that relate to the cause itself, people just do things because of peer pressure, the message is lost and nothing changes.

 

[SBT]

I don't defend Black Power salutes, no. Perhaps the gesture means something different to those standing doing it, I don't know. But I'm not wrong in saying what that movement stood for and as I keep saying, the black community itself was heavily divided on it as a symbol.

You're starting to piss me off, just call me a racist and be done with it.

I don’t know if you’re necessarily a racist, but I think you’re complacent to the point of being actively resistant to those who would stand up against racism. And, with respect, that isn’t much better unfortunately.

I know that’s uncomfortable to hear. But until people are prepared to defend those making even the most token gestures against racism - even if they have to get out of their own personal comfort zone to do so - we won’t get far as a society. So don’t be too surprised if not much progress gets made on your watch.

 

[skybluetony176]

The raised fist means solidarity. Not sure why anyone would get upset about that.

 

[SBT]

However, surely the 'This is their fight, not yours' does nothing for a cause that is desperate for open dialogue. When you close down debate, and do not allow a counterpoint with explanation you submit to supposition. To not allow debate waters down any actions that relate to the cause itself, people just do things because of peer pressure, the message is lost and nothing changes.

I think before you even get to the open dialogue part, you have to know you’re being heard, and are being supported. If people are booing you for trying, and those who say they support you won’t even defend you, what hope do you have in getting to the dialogue part? I’m sure there are players who would love to have a proper debate about racial equality in football, but there’s not much hope for that if they can’t even kneel for five seconds without taking abuse for it first.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I don’t know if you’re necessarily a racist, but I think you’re complacent to the point of being actively resistant to those who would stand up against racism. And, with respect, that isn’t much better unfortunately.

I know that’s uncomfortable to hear. But until people are prepared to defend those making even the most token gestures against racism - even if they have to get out of their own personal comfort zone to do so - we won’t get far as a society. So don’t be too surprised if not much progress gets made on your watch.

I haven't been opposed to the knee at all and if you knew more about me you'd know what else I do in the community that is directed at social cohesion. My issue is specifically with Black Power and violent protest, that's what the salute is most associated with. If for the player it means something else and they've explained it as much, fine. Martin Luther King himself didn't see it as a useful gesture.

 

[Frostie]

The raised fist means solidarity. Not sure why anyone would get upset about that.

Only one person is tbf.

 

[SBT]

I haven't been opposed to the knee at all and if you knew more about me you'd know what else I do in the community that is directed at social cohesion. My issue is specifically with Black Power and violent protest, that's what the salute is most associated with. If for the player it means something else and they've explained it as much, fine. Martin Luther King himself didn't see it as a useful gesture.

Anyone with an internet connection can learn about the Black Power salute and what it meant to people in the 60s. But if you choose to use that knowledge as an excuse to automatically write off or undermine racial protests in 2020, rather than taking a minute to understand why people like Dabo are doing it today, I don’t think that’s especially helpful.

I’m glad you’re doing work to make things better in your community, and I applaud you for it. But we all still have blind spots, and we all stand to gain from listening to why protests are happening, rather than deciding which ones are and aren’t acceptable to us ahead of time.

 

[dancers lance]

The raised fist means solidarity. Not sure why anyone would get upset about that.

I think before you even get to the open dialogue part, you have to know you’re being heard, and are being supported. If people are booing you for trying, and those who say they support you won’t even defend you, what hope do you have in getting to the dialogue part? I’m sure there are players who would love to have a proper debate about racial equality in football, but there’s not much hope for that if they can’t even kneel for five seconds without taking abuse for it first.

You will never have open dialogue with the likes of those Millwall fans that chose to do that, the players know that. However, they are a minority of bigots. When I talk about open dialogue, they are no way included, not least for the fact that they would be incapable.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Anyone with an internet connection can learn about the Black Power salute and what it meant to people in the 60s. But if you choose to use that knowledge as an excuse to automatically write off or undermine racial protests in 2020, rather than taking a minute to understand why people like Dabo are doing it today, I don’t think that’s especially helpful.

I’m glad you’re doing work to make things better in your community, and I applaud you for it. But we all still have blind spots, and we all stand to gain from listening to why protests are happening, rather than deciding which ones are and aren’t acceptable to us ahead of time.

I learnt about it at school and kept up my interest in it since, particularly since my uni was heavy on American students. I didn't say x gesture should be banned, I said I wasn't comfortable with it because my knowledge of it was that it's rooted in support for violent protest. I'm not close minded, if you show me pieces about what it means now and why I'll read them and be open to changing my mind.

But don't talk to me like I'm on a par with those booing the whole movement today, because that's how it feels.

 

[Frostie]

I learnt about it at school and kept up my interest in it since, particularly since my uni was heavy on American students. I didn't say x gesture should be banned, I said I wasn't comfortable with it because my knowledge of it was that it's rooted in support for violent protest. I'm not close minded, if you show me pieces about what it means now and why I'll read them and be open to changing my mind.

But don't talk to me like I'm on a par with those booing the whole movement today, because that's how it feels.

So you think that the likes of Dabo, Rashford etc are encouraging violent protest?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

So you think that the likes of Dabo, Rashford etc are encouraging violent protest?

No, I said the gesture has a historical association with it.

 

[Frostie]

No, I said the gesture has a historical association with it.

By one group who adopted it, almost all others used it, as intended, as a symbol of solidarity.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

By one group who adopted it, almost all others used it, as intended, as a symbol of solidarity.

Pretty significant group.

 

[skybluetony176]

Pretty significant group.

Which group?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Which group?

The Black Power movement.

 

[skybluetony176]

The Black Power movement.

You have to be wearing a black glove for it to symbolise the BPM. The Black Panther Party were very specific about that. Without the glove it just means solidarity.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

You have to be wearing a black glove for it to symbolise the BPM. The Black Panther Party were very specific about that. Without the glove it just means solidarity.

I genuinely never knew that, but I can't find anything that says it-care to link?

 

[skybluetony176]

I genuinely never knew that, but I can't find anything that says it-care to link?

Just google it. There’s a very famous image from the 68 Olympics find anything on that (which will be the top of the first page) and you’ll be able to read all about it and the meaning.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Just google it. There’s a very famous image from the 68 Olympics find anything on that (which will be the top of the first page) and you’ll be able to read all about it and the meaning.

I'm very familiar with all that but don't see anywhere where wearing a glove carries a specific meaning.

 

[skybluetony176]

I'm very familiar with all that but don't see anywhere where wearing a glove carries a specific meaning.

It was part of the uniform. Black leather jacket, black beret, blue shirt and black gloves. Look at any image of BPP members and it’s there, failing that watch Forest Gump.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

It was part of the uniform. Black leather jacket, black beret, blue shirt and black gloves. Look at any image of BPP members and it’s there, failing that watch Forest Gump.

So why did Lewis Hamilton say he was doing one when he didn't wear a glove?

 

[usskyblue]

Republicans be like...

 

[Frostie]

So why did Lewis Hamilton say he was doing one when he didn't wear a glove?

I think you might be conflating Black Power with Black Supremacy.


Hamilton said:

"I remember seeing and reading about their experience (African-American athletes Tommie Smith and John Carlos at the 1968 Olympic Games) and seeing the iconic image of their salute, and that was inspiring for me.

"Racism is something that has been around for hundreds of years and currently continues, the fight continues, and when you've got icons, people like that, who have stood up against this battle, I just find it inspiring.

"I just took a page out of their book, realising that I have this platform, this opportunity to continue to raise awareness, and try to unite people. To try to educate myself, but also educate other people, and that was really where it came from."

 

[David O'Day]

Raised fist - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Otis]

Yeah. I'm in agreement with the message but doing it constantly loses its potency

Be like buying the missus a bouquet of flowers every week. She'd soon get fucked off with it!

That's why I slip in the odd box of Daily Milk and and a handful of Bonsai tree seeds every now again for her.

 

[Covstu]

Yet to see 'marxist' used outside a historical context by anyone who knows what they're talking about. The streak continues

No they seen it on Twitter and Facebook so has to be true

 

[Macca]

Maybe time to rebrand the message? Some football fans aren’t the brightest and can only connect the act of taking the knee to the the BLM activity of the summer. Sadly that largely consisted largely of middle class white anarchists sucker punching people and smashing the place up

 

[David O'Day]

Maybe time to rebrand the message? Some football fans aren’t the brightest and can only connect the act of taking the knee to the the BLM activity of the summer. Sadly that largely consisted largely of middle class white anarchists sucker punching people and smashing the place up

No, no it didn't.

See this is the problem people don't actually know what BLM actually is, what they do and the fact that most of the people involved are normal fold and people of colour.

Yes like any protests you can attract the anarchist etc but most of the violence in the UK this summer happened a the far right any BLM protest.

No ifs, no buts and definitely no excuses the blame lies solely on the Millwall fans for their actions and rest assured that even if the taking of the knee had no links to BLM they would still boo it. They are racists largely and racists are gonna racist as they simply don't agree that black lives matter.

 

[fernandopartridge]

Yet to see 'marxist' used outside a historical context by anyone who knows what they're talking about. The streak continues

Yep, it's a catch all term for anything not far right, see also 'Antifa' and 'Leftie'

 

[Terry Gibson's perm]

Millwall have been hi lighted but it also happened at other grounds, Colchester was one