Blues fold Academy (6 Viewers)

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Are you sure
If you do not have the physical stature at that age, you will not shine. The smaller players, and late physical developers would quite often not be identified until much later - unless they are exceptional

Yep - even up to U16 at school we'd just play the biggest, strongest lads in the footy team and would win a lot. Had a few that were actually decent but most of the time we just bullied other teams. Terrible at actually playing football though.

 

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[Gibbo]

Worth noting before we get all dewey eyed and romantic about youth programmes:-

There is inherently a huge amount of wastage in them. Under Robins we have had Bayliss and Shipley in year 1 but nobody has established themselves since - two players in four years and none in the last three. And judging by what is happening at Gillingham, Eccles looks unlikely to make it through to our 1st team.

Unless you sell on, youth programmes are a very expensive way to acquire players. Out of contract remains the cheapest way - O'Hare, Kelly, Allen, MacFadz, Dabo, Rose (I think), Walker (I think) Marosi, Wilson. With the exception of Kelly, all in just the last 18 months. You know what you are getting, which you don't with an 8 year old.

The higher you go, the more that becomes true. League 2 is a good entry level for a young player, Championship is not.

The additional trick in order to get more throughput through the high fixed cost of an academy has been having a development programme- Hyam, Westbrook, MacCallum. It's a shorter time frame in which to get a return on your investment - one to two years as against 8-10 for a youth player.

Saturday's team by source
Out of contract: Wilson, Dabo, MacFadz, Kelly, Walker, O'Hare
Loan: Ostigaard (MacCallum)
Development; Hyam, MacCallum
Purchase: Biamou (small fee?), Hamer
Youth: A big fat zero

You can see why the accountants look at youth programmes and say "this is genuinely a long odds bet - 20-30 players for one star who makes big bucks."

Note the rules for Premiership clubs are different. You could run a couple of academies on Pogba's wages.

 

[chiefdave]

Out of contract remains the cheapest way - O'Hare, Kelly, Allen, MacFadz, Dabo, Rose (I think), Walker (I think) Marosi, Wilson.

But out of those isn't Marosi the only one that didn't come through the academy system? Just because they didn't come through ours doesn't invalidate it, if all clubs close their academies that out of contract pool of talent disappears.

 

[Gibbo]

But out of those isn't Marosi the only one that didn't come through the academy system? Just because they didn't come through ours doesn't invalidate it, if all clubs close their academies that out of contract pool of talent disappears.

Even better, we are getting players that some other mug has paid to develop. We are not a charity.

I suspect we will live off the left overs from the huge oversized Premiership youth schemes and the commercial academies. In fact maybe the way is to commercially link up with one of the latter. Bremang came from one.

There is no shortage of lads wanting to be footballers.

I am not suggesting we close ours, merely pointing out that it is an old fashioned idea, possibly nearing its sell-buy date and I can see why club owners wonder whether it is worth the bother.

 

[chiefdave]

even better we are getting players that some other mug has paid for.

that's true. but if you take it to its logical conclusion and every team closes their academy because its better to pick up out of contract players where are those players coming from?

If we're going to rely on private academies then we need to be sure of their long term viability. Or are they likely to start disappearing if and when funding dries up?

 

[no_loyalty]

Didn’t blues do this before and we signed up a few players , wasn’t jordan willis one of them?

Yes they have done this before, John Eustace joined us from there.

 

[shmmeee]

Walker cost £600-900k depending on source.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Worth noting before we get all dewey eyed and romantic about youth programmes:-

There is inherently a huge amount of wastage in them. Under Robins we have had Bayliss and Shipley in year 1 but nobody has established themselves since - two players in four years and none in the last three. And judging by what is happening at Gillingham, Eccles looks unlikely to make it through to our 1st team.

Unless you sell on, youth programmes are a very expensive way to acquire players. Out of contract remains the cheapest way - O'Hare, Kelly, Allen, MacFadz, Dabo, Rose (I think), Walker (I think) Marosi, Wilson. With the exception of Kelly, all in just the last 18 months. You know what you are getting, which you don't with an 8 year old.

The higher you go, the more that becomes true. League 2 is a good entry level for a young player, Championship is not.

The additional trick in order to get more throughput through the high fixed cost of an academy has been having a development programme- Hyam, Westbrook, MacCallum. It's a shorter time frame in which to get a return on your investment - one to two years as against 8-10 for a youth player.

Saturday's team by source
Out of contract: Wilson, Dabo, MacFadz, Kelly, Walker, O'Hare
Loan: Ostigaard (MacCallum)
Development; Hyam, MacCallum
Purchase: Biamou (small fee?), Hamer
Youth: A big fat zero

You can see why the accountants look at youth programmes and say "this is genuinely a long odds bet - 20-30 players for one star who makes big bucks."

Note the rules for Premiership clubs are different. You could run a couple of academies on Pogba's wages.

You say that as if we haven't sold the following players for 6 figure fees in the last few seasons; G Thomas, Harries, Stevenson, Bayliss, Maddison*, Wilson*, McCallum (who joined at 16/17). Frankly, this influx of players have been the lifeline for the club when we were at the depths of L1 and 2.

That's not even mentioning the players who actually play in the first team over those seasons.

* denotes additional clauses paid out on.

 

[fernandopartridge]

It is an odd decision from Blues, Demarai Gray another relatively recent academy graduate from there.

 

[clint van damme]

Educational? That sounds a good scam business model.

I won't name the club but a scam is exactly how they used it.
My mates son left because they were taking in anybody and getting a government subsidy and it was hurting the lads who actually had ability.

 

[fernandopartridge]

All football and education academies are linked to an education and training provider. That provider has access to education and skills funding agency money that is approximately 4k per student per year if on a full time programme.
That money has to cover everything from kit, to teaching staff, venue hire and also coaching staff. A new start up generally needs around 20 students to get going and that will just about cover probably a couple of young coaches and a tutor.
Their education will generally be a BTEC qual worth around 3 a-levels and some will do English and Maths too depending on grades gained at GCSE.

The market for these is becoming saturated and diluting the quality at each venue.

Strachan used to be the only one about, but now there are about 12 in Coventry and Warwickshire of varying quality. Most non-league clubs have one.

As they are funded by "education " money, they are subject to all of the same quality control processes as colleges, including ofsted.

What ESFA programme is that under? I recall from my days at the LSC / SFA we had some football clubs on the books but not that many

 

[shepardo01]

What ESFA programme is that under? I recall from my days at the LSC / SFA we had some football clubs on the books but not that many

Goes to the education and training providers. They have to be recognised to access it. They have the academies under their umbrella. Under full time study programmes.

 

[fernandopartridge]

Goes to the education and training providers. They have to be recognised to access it. They have the academies under their umbrella.

I getcha, do CCFC use City College or whatever it's called now?

 

[shepardo01]

I getcha, do CCFC use City College or whatever it's called now?

Football league are/have a recognised provider, LFE i think...league football education. As do premier league. Gone are the days of the players attending henley college. All delivered in House now EG, at the Higgs.

 

[SlowerThanPlatt]

I can understand Brentford and Huddersfield looking in different directions as the best players these clubs produced were Jon Stead and Jay Tabb. Good Championship campaigners but never going to attract large fees.

Ironically, the most successful Brentford B team product in the 4 years they’ve run it is Chris Mepham who was sold to Bournemouth and was there since U15, an age group they no longer cater for. The same with Lewis O’Brien at Huddersfield who won their POTY last season. Brentford’s relative success has been down to good scouting at first team level and little to do with their restructuring.

Birmingham is an odd one as they’ve consistently produced a good standard of player and said they were going for Cat 1 a few months back.

 

[BornSlippySkyBlue]

Are you sure
If you do not have the physical stature at that age, you will not shine. The smaller players, and late physical developers would quite often not be identified until much later - unless they are exceptional

There’s a lad in my son’s team (u12) been at the West Brom academy for a couple of years now who is the smallest in the team. He’s good, but not ‘that’ good. Have also seen CCFC scouts at a few matches over Elmdon / Brum airport region.

He plays in the North Warwickshire league, so the scouts are definitely aware of good young players, even out of the academies.

 

[shepardo01]

I won't name the club but a scam is exactly how they used it.
My mates son left because they were taking in anybody and getting a government subsidy and it was hurting the lads who actually had ability.

Some of them do. Some have high standards in all areas, some pile in the lads, any ability, as numbers = money!
I do know for instance that Strachan is non for profit so all money in goes back into the coaching/education in some way/shape or form.
Be interested to know who you are referring to... although have an idea.
Were they based at one Warwickshire club... and have since moved to another!?

 

[clint van damme]

Some of them do. Some have high standards in all areas, some pile in the lads, any ability, as numbers = money!
I do know for instance that Strachan is non for profit so all money in goes back into the coaching/education in some way/shape or form.
Be interested to know who you are referring to... although have an idea.
Were they based at one Warwickshire club... and have since moved to another!?

Fuck it. It was Mansfield

 

[shepardo01]

Fuck it. It was Mansfield

Haha... they have a couple based in different areas. Don't think all are officially linked with the actual football club. They aren't with LFE either I don't think.
There are a lot locally now, that do great things for the lads involved both educationally and from a football development point of view. Some cater, and cater well for different abilities too.
There are also some, locally included, that falsely promise the lads the world and don't care about the students unless they are decent players.

Virtually none of these football and education academies are a footballing match for a cat 2 academy at a professional club.

A portion of students will go to the USA on scholarships, one or two (very very few) may sign for a lower league club, and a few may play non league football.
A fair few will go to university with their academic qualifications too.

 

[Gibbo]

You say that as if we haven't sold the following players for 6 figure fees in the last few seasons; G Thomas, Harries, Stevenson, Bayliss, Maddison*, Wilson*, McCallum (who joined at 16/17). Frankly, this influx of players have been the lifeline for the club when we were at the depths of L1 and 2.

That's not even mentioning the players who actually play in the first team over those seasons.

* denotes additional clauses paid out on.

That is the point - they don't play in the first team. Only Bayliss and Shipley in the last 3.5 seasons (none at all in the last 2.5 seasons, Not one. Nada). One of the best current prospects is on the bench at Gillingham. I have hopes for Bapaga though, so we might see one next season. But we will only get value from Bapaga if we sell him so as to pay for the lads on the scheme that do not make it.

The team itself gets little from our youth scheme. And you have outgoings for 10 years while they develop.

MacCallum was 'development' - different kettle of fish
Thomas - 1 season
Harries - no seasons
Bayliss - one and a half seasons
Stevenson - one season
Maddison - 1 season
Wilson - 1 season

It''s a business venture, which is fine by me, but lets not get all romantic about it being a building block for a better Coventry City first team. Because it self evidently is not. The assumption is that of the numerous kids passing through, one will be a gem, consequently it is a volume game. You have to have lots and lots of kids

 

[SlowerThanPlatt]

That is the point - they don't play in the first team. Only Bayliss and Shipley in the last 3.5 seasons (none at all in the last 2.5 seasons, Not one. Nada). One of the best current prospects is on the bench at Gillingham. I have hopes for Bapaga though, so we might see one next season. But we will only get value from Bapaga if we sell him so as to pay for the lads on the scheme that do not make it.

The team itself gets little from our youth scheme. And you have outgoings for 10 years while they develop.

MacCallum was 'development' - different kettle of fish
Thomas - 1 season
Harries - no seasons
Bayliss - one and a half seasons
Stevenson - one season
Maddison - 1 season
Wilson - 1 season

It''s a business venture, which is fine by me, but lets not get all romantic about it being a building block for a better Coventry City first team. Because it self evidently is not. The assumption is that of the numerous kids passing through, one will be a gem, consequently it is a volume game. You have to have lots and lots of kids

Like every lower league club any young player with potential goes to a bigger club after a season or two, there is little anyone can do about that. The money has been used to sign better players and keep the club somewhat stable.

 

[SBchimp]

That is the point - they don't play in the first team. Only Bayliss and Shipley in the last 3.5 seasons (none at all in the last 2.5 seasons, Not one. Nada). One of the best current prospects is on the bench at Gillingham. I have hopes for Bapaga though, so we might see one next season. But we will only get value from Bapaga if we sell him so as to pay for the lads on the scheme that do not make it.

The team itself gets little from our youth scheme. And you have outgoings for 10 years while they develop.

MacCallum was 'development' - different kettle of fish
Thomas - 1 season
Harries - no seasons
Bayliss - one and a half seasons
Stevenson - one season
Maddison - 1 season
Wilson - 1 season

It''s a business venture, which is fine by me, but lets not get all romantic about it being a building block for a better Coventry City first team. Because it self evidently is not. The assumption is that of the numerous kids passing through, one will be a gem, consequently it is a volume game. You have to have lots and lots of kids

Burge?

 

[Terry Gibson's perm]

Being in the lower leagues allowed players like Shipley to get game time would he have made his debut if we had been in the championship.

Some academy players are jo better than kids on the parks but their parents may be able to transport them about and buy the kit they need.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

That is the point - they don't play in the first team. Only Bayliss and Shipley in the last 3.5 seasons (none at all in the last 2.5 seasons, Not one. Nada). One of the best current prospects is on the bench at Gillingham. I have hopes for Bapaga though, so we might see one next season. But we will only get value from Bapaga if we sell him so as to pay for the lads on the scheme that do not make it.

The team itself gets little from our youth scheme. And you have outgoings for 10 years while they develop.

MacCallum was 'development' - different kettle of fish
Thomas - 1 season
Harries - no seasons
Bayliss - one and a half seasons
Stevenson - one season
Maddison - 1 season
Wilson - 1 season

It''s a business venture, which is fine by me, but lets not get all romantic about it being a building block for a better Coventry City first team. Because it self evidently is not. The assumption is that of the numerous kids passing through, one will be a gem, consequently it is a volume game. You have to have lots and lots of kids

You were questioning the worthiness of having an academy. Yet, in the last 5 years, the vast majority of our transfer revenue has come from selling our academy products. That’s without me including academy products who played for us, but we didn’t sell.

Any players who make it into the first team is a bonus.

One for the older heads of the forum, has there ever really been an era in football where teams would have 4+ academy products in their systems?

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

You say that as if we haven't sold the following players for 6 figure fees in the last few seasons; G Thomas, Harries, Stevenson, Bayliss, Maddison*, Wilson*, McCallum (who joined at 16/17). Frankly, this influx of players have been the lifeline for the club when we were at the depths of L1 and 2.

That's not even mentioning the players who actually play in the first team over those seasons.

* denotes additional clauses paid out on.

We also got small fees for Sambou and McCann

 

[fernandopartridge]

That is the point - they don't play in the first team. Only Bayliss and Shipley in the last 3.5 seasons (none at all in the last 2.5 seasons, Not one. Nada). One of the best current prospects is on the bench at Gillingham. I have hopes for Bapaga though, so we might see one next season. But we will only get value from Bapaga if we sell him so as to pay for the lads on the scheme that do not make it.

The team itself gets little from our youth scheme. And you have outgoings for 10 years while they develop.

MacCallum was 'development' - different kettle of fish
Thomas - 1 season
Harries - no seasons
Bayliss - one and a half seasons
Stevenson - one season
Maddison - 1 season
Wilson - 1 season

It''s a business venture, which is fine by me, but lets not get all romantic about it being a building block for a better Coventry City first team. Because it self evidently is not. The assumption is that of the numerous kids passing through, one will be a gem, consequently it is a volume game. You have to have lots and lots of kids

Self-evidently it is, because the significant transfer income from academy products has helped to improve the first team even after the players themselves have moved on.