so where are we right now CCFC wise (9 Viewers)

[oldskyblue58]

just a few thoughts really

- havent found the link to TF's and to be honest I am almost at the point I am not interested in what he said. It will be the same things, the same spin, the same stating the obvious. It is often what he doesn't say that's important. Yes the business has to be sustainable, yes funds will be used to pay for day to day trading, yes we all hope more players will come in, yes we all hope for a tilt at promotion etc.... but what is the plan TF and how will you stick to it?

- Waggott I think that in him we actually have someone that understands the transfer market and will do some clever dealing. I think he can work within the budget which must also be within the FFP rules (two different things really the budget is for breakeven, the way the FFP rules work the actual limit might be bigger than the budget to breakeven). I am willing to believe for now that by the end of August we will have a fighting chance in this division and the squad will be bigger and competitive because of Waggotts skills..... but time will tell

- Gael's sale I didn't like, we should be holding on to our best talent, should be building teams with them, maximising the benefit to the club. However I suspect cashflow for running the club and bringing in new players is so tight that some unpopular decisions have to be taken simply to keep going. That sale could fund 4 players wages brought in on free transfers..... or it could knock a hole in this years losses and fund day to day costs .... it certainly will give the club more room to operate under the FFP rules should they choose to. Who else in our squad would command a reported £1m? I didnt like it but can see perhaps why

- player sales .... we dont like it but it is where we are. There are no great funds to come in, player sales are a major source of income and a necessity. It isnt a secret, TF has said there will be Waggott has said there will be, the auditors have said there will be ........ so why is anyone surprised when there are ? The crux of the matter is not the sales .... the crux of the matter is what are the replacements both in quantity and quality

- New players ..... give them a chance folks, at least let them play a few games for us before slagging them off.

- existing players ..... well the same really, give them the chance to make amends (especially likes of McSheffery, Bell, Baker) before we nail them to the wall. Ok i accept they perhaps deserve less sympathy but ....

- AT .... well I guess he gets a chance again from me. Tried to be fair to him last season but am still of the opinion that he was for much of the season short of what was required. He has to start much better in his organisation and understanding this year. He is what we have and as such we support him but that doesnt mean we shouldnt question him

The Council - heard a radio report from Mr Mutton this morning. Suggesting a rent reduction would be appropriate, not actually the Councils decision but there you go. It would seem appropriate however. Some of the comments appeared contradictory and simplistic though. "I dont know the figures for the CCFC budget" followed by "last year they lost 6 to 7m and already lost £3.7m league money" and other such stuff .... surely that says the council have seen some figures?. I stopped listening to be honest, radio was on but it wasnt going in.

- "the radio was on but it wasnt going in" "the article was in the paper but I couldnt be bothered to read it" ......... these I think are worrying thoughts or comments. I feel so worn down by all the double talk and spin that like many fans I am losing interest. For a few brief moments last week there was a football buzz about CCFC then they sold Bigi and it was all about finance and SISU again. It almost felt like a positive direction for the club lost

- Just to be clear the £52m debt in CCFC accounts to 2011 is not the relevant figure.... the relevant debt is the £29.7m owed to SISU by the whole group of companies plus the £2m to ARVO. The debt shown in the CCFC accounts includes losses pre SISU that SISU wrote down when they bought in. It is just a quirk in group accounts that they could adjust if they wanted to. What SISU have funded is Group losses to 31/05/11 £21m plus the debt they took over £8m plus any losses or funding requirement since then (after accounting for Prozone sale, money from the likes of Dann, Gunnarrson etc, not paying the rent and reducing the escrow account, less the costs of Waggott and/or other specialists)

Seems to be a roller coast ride as ever ...... good news followed by bad followed by positive followed by bad followed by bad followed by positive..... cant wait till the season starts and hopefully we start winning much more regularly..... surely our results will be better this coming season ??????

 

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[Wrenstreetcarpark]

The Council - heard a radio report from Mr Mutton this morning. Suggesting a rent reduction would be appropriate, not actually the Councils decision but there you go. It would seem appropriate however. Some of the comments appeared contradictory and simplistic though. "I dont know the figures for the CCFC budget" followed by "last year they lost 6 to 7m and already lost £3.7m league money" and other such stuff .... surely that says the council have seen some figures?. I stopped listening to be honest, radsio was on but it wasnt going in.

And not only is it not the Council's business but would Mutton actually have the support of all the members? He is the leader of the Labour Group at the moment but would he be able to persuade the rest of the Council that they should do a deal with SISU? Is he using his support of the Club to prop up his leadership now that he is being challenged? He is a politician: whose interest is he most interested in?

 

[Sub]

i agree with nearly everything you have wrote there OSB apart from giving a cut in rent. why should they be given a cut in rent because they messed up? if you or i lose our job we have to pay the mortgage or lose our house why should SISU have it any different because they cant run a piss-up in a brewery?? i just dont think it should be reduced because of their miss mangaement and getting us relegated i know this will prove unpopular with some folks but its just my opinion

 

[oldskyblue58]

Just to add a couple of things

SISU ....... I do not believe for one second that there has been a change in thinking by them. What has changed is that they have fewer options and choices they can make. Bottom line they want out but cant because of the client losses that would incur. They are left with strict budget control ..... we are left with the results of their lack of understanding and management and all that means for CCFC

GH ..... to paraphrase "In Hoffman I have no reason to trust", I don't think there is anything to report. I dont doubt him as a fan, just seen nothing that makes me believe in anything else that has been attributed to him regarding CCFC

The CT ..... sorry but in my opinion they have far too often failed the fans and club with inaccurate reporting and hyped headlines.... the information is there to be had and their links to all concerned better than most ..... why do they get it wrong so often ?

 

[skyblueman]

Just thinking the exact same thing Sub - seriously why should the rent be reduced? It's not the landlords fault the club made a mess of it - can't see how their costs are going to suddenly drop because we are in L1

 

[ccfcway]

any news on the reduction on match day tickets, shirts, car parking, beers, pies etc ?

Surely if SISU can claim a reduction in rent, we can also claim a reduction as part of having an inferior product.

 

[oldskyblue58]

Sub and skyblueman ...... I agree thats what they signed up for ...... even go to suggest that reducing the rent is like rewarding failure...... however I think I take a more pragmatic view. It is better for all concerned to be paying a lower rent for now in League 1 than to have the club go out of business and for ACL to lose the tenant. Is that fair on other council tenants absolutely not. But the whole process has to move forward one way or another. Is it even going to happen ? I have no idea

wrenstreetcarpark ..... i certainly agree

 

[torchomatic]

Couldn't agree more, OSB. I can't see how fans can actively want the club to pay over the odds for our rent. Yes, they agreed to it ,but when they did the football and financial world was vastly different to what it is today. We are now tumbling down the leagues, fans are boycotting and we need every penny we can get.

Higher rent will be equate to more player sales. "We shouldn't reduce rent, etc etc" and "We shouldn't sell our best players, etc etc".

Cause and effect.

 

[stupot07]

To be honest I think the rent should be paid on a sliding scale based on which league we are in perhaps as a fixed % of income. Yes they would get lower rent now but if we got to the premier league they would be quids in.

I agree with OSB having a tenant and getting some money in is better than not having a tenant and not income stream.

This is not a house, it's a business and everything is up for negotiation.

If you want to go down the house route, if you lost your job you can take a 3 month payment break, you could remortgage to pay the lower interest only, which housing benefit can cover, if your house go reposessed you've get re-accommodated into social housing with housing benefit paying your rent. Sorry thay was very simplistic but shows it's not all black and white.

 

[Sub]

cause is miss mangement, effect is selling players driving their client base away (the Fans) with bully boy tactics, less tv revenue all their own doing its a never ending circle and the blame is clearly at SISU's feet. how many times last season did we post warnings that they were going to get us relegated with there constant cuts and selling of players or releasing and no investment?
yes there has to be a way forward but for ACL the council and everybody else to take the hit, i dont think so SISU have made millions from other businesses about time THEY paid the price for their own mistakes not everybody else !!!

 

[torchomatic]

But everybody else will pay the price! Us lot, the fans! If the club went under because those who could refused bloody-mindedly to reduce the rent would you go "Oh no, my club have gone" or would you go "Ha ha! It's all their own fault". That what it comes down to. Regardless of the whys and wherefores this club is in serious financial peril. Cutting off your nose to spite your face isn't the way forward for Coventry City.

 

[skyblueman]

Sub and skyblueman ...... I agree thats what they signed up for ...... even go to suggest that reducing the rent is like rewarding failure...... however I think I take a more pragmatic view. It is better for all concerned to be paying a lower rent for now in League 1 than to have the club go out of business and for ACL to lose the tenant. Is that fair on other council tenants absolutely not. But the whole process has to move forward one way or another. Is it even going to happen ? I have no idea

wrenstreetcarpark ..... i certainly agree

I for one would certainly appreciate a rent reduction - my point is that to be fair to the owners of the stadium the agreement should be honoured - standard business practice - it's a difficult position to put the council in as their No1 obligation is to the citizens of Coventry - why should the quality of council services be compromised by mismanagement of a football club? Besides the club isn't going to go bust because of the forward rent - problems go much deeper than that - and if the club are still committing to spending money on other contracts like bringing in new people then that's not going to look too good either - If the club really is on it's knees then it should hold up it's hands and say it CAN'T pay and be prepared to back that up with numbers - either SISU can manage their obligations or they can't in which case they should move over and let someone else manage it

 

[oldskyblue58]

another thought on a thought that perhaps hasnt been highlighted enough (I know some posters have provided some good commentary on it) .....

In my opinion aside from the 3 new players coming the best news last week that came out was that we are going to be a category 2 academy. The ability to find, nurture and develop our own talent is essential to the long term future of this club. It was therefore important to hear of the clubs commitment to its youth policy and academy ...... it wasnt so long ago that there were headlines that the academy was to be scrapped for lack of funding

 

[Wrenstreetcarpark]

The rent is an issue, that is clear. What about the interest on the loans to CCFC that are mounting and increasing the debt? What other savings can the Club make? It is an easy call to make: we won't pay the rent now what are you going to do Mr Councilman? It will be you Mr Councilman that puts the Club out of business: how will that go down PR-wise?

There has to be some arrangement worked out on rent: sliding scale for league, base rate for average attendance plus percentage on bigger attendance, deferred rent rolled up to be paid if/when there is success, deferred rent put before re-payment of other loans to CCFC.

Why should ACL make a gift of loadsamoney to a gang of shysters headed by Joy Seppala? Forgo your interest payments Joyless and then we can see you are not just screwing Coventry.

 

[torchomatic]

Local Government services are compromised by managers in Local Government every day of the year.

Who knows, maybe the club wouldn't go bust; but players would have to be sold, more youth would have to be played in their place. Results would suffer...fans would moan. Vicious circle.

I for one would certainly appreciate a rent reduction - my point is that to be fair to the owners of the stadium the agreement should be honoured - standard business practice - it's a difficult position to put the council in as their No1 obligation is to the citizens of Coventry - why should the quality of council services be compromised by mismanagement of a football club? Besides the club isn't going to go bust because of the forward rent - problems go much deeper than that - and if the club are still committing to spending money on other contracts like bringing in new people then that's not going to look too good either - If the club really is on it's knees then it should hold up it's hands and say it CAN'T pay and be prepared to back that up with numbers - either SISU can manage their obligations or they can't in which case they should move over and let someone else manage it

 

[stupot07]

I for one would certainly appreciate a rent reduction - my point is that to be fair to the owners of the stadium the agreement should be honoured - standard business practice - it's a difficult position to put the council in as their No1 obligation is to the citizens of Coventry - why should the quality of council services be compromised by mismanagement of a football club? Besides the club isn't going to go bust because of the forward rent - problems go much deeper than that - and if the club are still committing to spending money on other contracts like bringing in new people then that's not going to look too good either - If the club really is on it's knees then it should hold up it's hands and say it CAN'T pay and be prepared to back that up with numbers - either SISU can manage their obligations or they can't in which case they should move over and let someone else manage it

The council take no money out of then club at the moment, so In the short to medium term there would be no impact in public services.

 

[Grendel]

i agree with nearly everything you have wrote there OSB apart from giving a cut in rent. why should they be given a cut in rent because they messed up? if you or i lose our job we have to pay the mortgage or lose our house why should SISU have it any different because they cant run a piss-up in a brewery?? i just dont think it should be reduced because of their miss mangaement and getting us relegated i know this will prove unpopular with some folks but its just my opinion

The comment about what would happen if you refuse to pay rent is irrelevant. If you signed an agreement to live in a bedsit and were charged a rent to leave in a mansion you may have some legal comeback.

This rent level is unjust. Actually it is an outrage. It will deter any future investment and ultimately prevent us moving forward. It needs dealing with now.

 

[oldskyblue58]

I for one would certainly appreciate a rent reduction - my point is that to be fair to the owners of the stadium the agreement should be honoured - standard business practice - it's a difficult position to put the council in as their No1 obligation is to the citizens of Coventry - why should the quality of council services be compromised by mismanagement of a football club? Besides the club isn't going to go bust because of the forward rent - problems go much deeper than that - and if the club are still committing to spending money on other contracts like bringing in new people then that's not going to look too good either - If the club really is on it's knees then it should hold up it's hands and say it CAN'T pay and be prepared to back that up with numbers - either SISU can manage their obligations or they can't in which case they should move over and let someone else manage it

My starting point would be that i agree..... have always honoured any business agreement I have been in.... but that doesnt mean that contracts cannot be reviewed and/or altered. The decision is for ACL, I think public announcements by council or its leader are not helpful, mislead people to think they call the shots, and create pressures that are not needed. The council and charity do not earn a penny from this.

I also agree about the problems at CCFC ...... they are not in trouble because of the rent and never have been. SISU are playing hard ball or trying to.

My finishing position is that one way or another the whole rent issue needs to be put to bed sooner rather than later. Perhaps by saying no or perhaps by saying we will reduce the rent by x amount for now if CCFC can prove and keep proving a sustainable business then review as crowrds and league membership improves. There are compromise options such as this that may well suit all concerned. Either way they need to deal with it not make self promoting sound bites out of it

 

[Wrenstreetcarpark]

The comment about what would happen if you refuse to pay rent is irrelevant. If you signed an agreement to live in a bedsit and were charged a rent to leave in a mansion you may have some legal comeback.

This rent level is unjust. Actually it is an outrage. It will deter any future investment and ultimately prevent us moving forward. It needs dealing with now.

Actually they are living in a mansion but having drunk and gambled the rent money all they can pay for is a bedsit (perhaps with housing benefit).

 

[skyblueman]

The compromise would be to defer a percentage of the rent for a period of time - in the same way some councils allow some businesses to defer a portion of their business council tax - it still has to be paid though in the future - that for me is the only sensible option for all concerned - the key for me is getting SISU to actually understand that they cannot negotiate their way out of trouble here - FUND it properly or GO AWAY

 

[Godiva]

Now here's where you can all accuse me for being naive, but I think the ship is now stabilizing and we are heading for calmer waters.
I have made a real nuisance of myself over the last 1½ years trying to explain why I find the actions made by the new regime (after sisu took control when Ranson, Hoffmann and Elliott left) necessary and key to our survival. I think sisu have got most of their decisions right since March last year - with one obvious (and spectacular) exception: Ken Dulieu.

I was also supportive of their decision to halt the rent payments. It was a necessary move as it was the only way to gain access to serious negotiation. £1.2m yearly rent is ridicolous. It was a figure we should be able to afford in PL, but in the championship it was simply too big a cost compared to our income. You can argue that the rent figure was known by sisu when they took over, but back then (before the financial crunch when investment money was easy to find) it was their plan to buy the stadium anyway, so negotiating lower rent cost was not on the agenda. As the reality changed with the global finacial meltdown and its impact on everything from access to investment funds to lower income on matchday, the £1.2m rent stood out as one of the largest single item in the accounts.
We should all be happy that the club is gaining support from the council to the rent negotiation with ACL.

So where are we right now?
First of all we're in league 1 - and before anyone gets started let me just say that no way were sisu planning, hoping or striving for relegation. Relegation has made their job tougher, and the value of the club - their investment - smaller.
But in league 1 we are the big guns. A big club with a great stadium and a historical legacy. Attracting players in competition with Crawley, Stevenage, Yeovil etc will be easier when compared to all the glamorous clubs in the championship.
We should be able to compete in this division, and if we can we could actually get into a winning mentality that can propel us forward even when we get back up. We have seen so many other clubs coming from league 1 full of momentum and blaze through the championship with ease.

Second we are finally getting our finances in order. The wages have come down to match our income and with a few good player deals we should very close to overall breakeven. At least cashflow wise, which is the most important issue.

Third we now seem to have a very capable board and management. I really like Fisher - maybe because I can decode his words. I am not turned off by the spin he has to produce. He is walking a fine line when he speaks - if his too direct he may inflate any positive feelings there may be and if he says nothing the fans find the club to secretive and non-communicating. He cannot come out and say: Yes, we are trying to sell Keogh as we need the money to rebuild the team. First of all it would bring down the price of the player, second it would upset the rest of the team making them all feel very unsecure. Third if he fails to sell him for any reasons, Keogh would feel unwelcome and his performance would suffer greatly. So he spins it. Tells us they try to keep him and have presented him a new contract (probably one that is easily bettered by any championship club). Tells us if don't sign the club will have to cash in now or get nothing when he leaves for free next summer.
Maybe you feel it's devious and even a sort of lying, but I find it to be good management.
Then there's Waggot who seem to handle contract negotiations and player trading with more flair than we have seen for quite some time.
And I am also pretty confident with the player management team - AT, Carsley and Shaw. I have long wondered if Harrison had lost it, now he's gone and fresh idea's in training and tactics can be implemented.

My fourth and final note is related to us - the fans. If we get off to a reasonable start I think we will concentrate on supporting the team. Slowly we will put sisu out of our minds and just forget they are there. Sure, a few die hards will keep crusading against them, but there will be fewer that listens. One of the most destructive elements last season and easily as guilty of our relegation as any other reasons was the sisu-out-campaign. A steady start to the next season should eliminate that destructive force. We will never come to love sisu, but we should reach a state where we just accept they are there in the background.

So I am actually quite optimistic.
Bring on Yeovil!

 

[Grendel]

The compromise would be to defer a percentage of the rent for a period of time - in the same way some councils allow some businesses to defer a portion of their business council tax - it still has to be paid though in the future - that for me is the only sensible option for all concerned - the key for me is getting SISU to actually understand that they cannot negotiate their way out of trouble here - FUND it properly or GO AWAY

I disagree. The club I feel will be stuck for ever in the doldrums unless certain things are resolved and this is one of them.
I also suspect if the hapless mob that got us into this mess in the first place were still in charge the club would feel a lot less sympathy for the council and more for them.
Both parties need to agree a sensible and fair payment - the current level isn't in any shape or form.

 

[skyblueman]

Godiva - I liked the 'So I am feeling quite optimistic.' Line - until you followed it with 'Bring on Yeovil'

 

[skyblueman]

I disagree. The club I feel will be stuck for ever in the doldrums unless certain things are resolved and this is one of them.
I also suspect if the hapless mob that got us into this mess in the first place were still in charge the club would feel a lot less sympathy for the council and more for them.
Both parties need to agree a sensible and fair payment - the current level isn't in any shape or form.

OK so let's reduce the rent to zero and everything will be rosy in the garden? Not if you've loosing £400k a month it isn't - the rent is not the problem here - the OWNERS have got to fund it - it's their company

 

[Grendel]

OK so let's reduce the rent to zero and everything will be rosy in the garden? Not if you've loosing £400k a month it isn't - the rent is not the problem here - the OWNERS have got to fund it - it's their company

It's disproportionate and unfair. What do you want a happy Council and a bankrupt football club. How very odd.

 

[Sub]

It's disproportionate and unfair. What do you want a happy Council and a bankrupt football club. How very odd.

i agree its disproportionate and unfair even more so now we have been relegated, but would they be asking for the rent to be reduced if we were in the premiership and they had all the extra cash coming in from that? no i dont think they would, they only wanted it reduced when we got relegated which they could of advoided.
Nobody wants the club to go to the wall but i just do not see why ACL and the council should pay for a private companies piss poor running of a football club that they aquired to make a killing on if they could, and now its all gone wrong they want everybody else to bail them out. They have enough money to buy the ground and try to make money that way but not to pay the rent or invest in the team??? how do they manage that?

 

[skyblueman]

It's disproportionate and unfair. What do you want a happy Council and a bankrupt football club. How very odd.

It's not unfair .. it's reality - and what about the loses the charity have to take - how is that fair on them? The ongoing viability of the club is already a BIG concern - a rent reduction isn't going to save it - SISU made a mistake coming in when they did - they CANT make money out of this and they will just leach any money out they can for as long as possible - there will be no investment whatsoever in the club.. I don't really blame SISU, the writing was on the wall before they came in.. the club needs a new beginning

 

[Grendel]

It's not unfair .. it's reality - and what about the loses the charity have to take - how is that fair on them? The ongoing viability of the club is already a BIG concern - a rent reduction isn't going to save it - SISU made a mistake coming in when they did - they CANT make money out of this and they will just leach any money out they can for as long as possible - there will be no investment whatsoever in the club.. I don't really blame SISU, the writing was on the wall before they came in.. the club needs a new beginning

No it doesn't need a new beginning it needs a sensible cost structure and that starts with the rent which is the highest anywhere outside the Premier League. ACL needs some income and so it gets negotiated to a fair level.

 

[ccfcway]

So where are we right now?
First of all we're in league 1 - and before anyone gets started let me just say that no way were sisu planning, hoping or striving for relegation. Relegation has made their job tougher, and the value of the club - their investment - smaller.
But in league 1 we are the big guns. A big club with a great stadium and a historical legacy. Attracting players in competition with Crawley, Stevenage, Yeovil etc will be easier when compared to all the glamorous clubs in the championship.

remind me how we got on with Collins, Symes, Herd etc

 

[torchomatic]

Ah, the ones you "herd" (pun intended) were being shown around the Ricoh.

 

[skyblueman]

Grendal tell you what - lets meet up before the first home game and I'll buy you a pint so we can continue this debate :wave: - don't forget we've on the same side you know

 

[torchomatic]

In simplistic terms, even if our problems were 100% SISUs fault (which they certainly aren't) then I still wouldn't want to see the club going into Admin or having to reduce the squad, etc just to spite them.

 

[skyblueman]

In simplistic terms, even if our problems were 100% SISUs fault (which they certainly aren't) then I still wouldn't want to see the club going into Admin or having to reduce the squad, etc just to spite them.

Nobody want's that...

 

[torchomatic]

I guess not, which is why I can't understand that fans are so vehemently against a rent reduction. If they don't cut costs there then they will simply cut costs elsewhere. The squad. And no one want that!

Nobody want's that...

 

[WillieStanley]

I for one would certainly appreciate a rent reduction - my point is that to be fair to the owners of the stadium the agreement should be honoured - standard business practice - it's a difficult position to put the council in as their No1 obligation is to the citizens of Coventry - why should the quality of council services be compromised by mismanagement of a football club? Besides the club isn't going to go bust because of the forward rent - problems go much deeper than that - and if the club are still committing to spending money on other contracts like bringing in new people then that's not going to look too good either - If the club really is on it's knees then it should hold up it's hands and say it CAN'T pay and be prepared to back that up with numbers - either SISU can manage their obligations or they can't in which case they should move over and let someone else manage it

If I thought that any profits from ACL went in to the day to day running costs of Coventry as a city, then I would be with you. The truth is, the profits don't and what's more, since the opening of the Ricoh, services in the city have declined.

The breakdown of how the council get their money is here.

http://www.coventry.gov.uk/downloads/download/1010/council_tax_booklet_2011-2012