Oh Jeremy Corbyn (24 Viewers)

[Sky Blue Pete]

Was cited as one of the reasons for growing UK poverty in the IFS report.

However it's done now and Johnson has said he's going to level up the country.

Let's hope he does or that he's held to account if he doesn't.

Best joke for decades a Tory party levelling up the country

 

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[Brylowes]

When Corbyn went 3 points ahead of May in the polls centrists said it was poor and he should be thrashing her.

Yet Starmer is polling similar against a, I think it's fair to say, worse PM and it's a resounding success apparently.

And if likeability gets you elected Starmers had it. He has no personality and is up against someone who for all his faults does (Though I'm not sure he'll be in situ come the next election).

The problem with the likes of Corbyn and Foot - even Kinnock - is that when it came to the polling days at election there becomes real concern to make the leap

Now you could rightly say corbyn did get votes at the election against May but having not secured anything like a majority that was his political peak

Starmer is not likely to have a “red under the bed” label to moderates

I’d argue that you’re all giving too much credence to the idea that leaders/parties win elections, as Shmmeee rightly pointed out most people aren’t political nerds ‘and whether they realise it or not are almost entirely reliant on the MSM to keep them informed and shape their opinion.
Corbyn wasn’t really taken seriously and certainly wasn’t considered a serious threat, the election result of 2017 stunned many on both sides of the political spectrum and opened eyes to the idea that Corby’s message was beginning to strike a chord and resonate with many people.
At this point the Conservative/MSM strategy to put down the resurgence of a left leaning Labour Party became, ignore the policies and go after the man, what followed was a deeply unpleasant, cruel, dishonest ‘no holds barred’ witch-hunt / character assassination.

 

[Ian1779]

Was cited as one of the reasons for growing UK poverty in the IFS report.

However it's done now and Johnson has said he's going to level up the country.

Let's hope he does or that he's held to account if he doesn't.

Alot of people voted out because things had got so shit for them that what did they have to lose. It was a huge ‘fuck you’ moment to the Establishment but that’s not how it was taken.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

I'm just happy that the country has been saved from having a nutter in charge

Not so sure about that!

 

[clint van damme]

Alot of people voted out because things had got so shit for them that what did they have to lose. It was a huge ‘fuck you’ moment to the Establishment but that’s not how it was taken.

Let's hope 5hey deliver another fuck you if it doesn't deliver a fair proportion of what was promised

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Supposing Boris is removed before the next election and replaced with someone who isn’t a total buffoon, for argument’s sake let’s say Jeremy Hunt. You’ve got two ‘moderate’ candidates between whom there isn’t much substantial difference. We have been there before and the Tories will still win.

I don’t see how Labour wins again to be honest. We’ve become like the US where it’s all about the personality and nothing substantive

Two things in UK politics need to happen for Labour to have a realistic shot at power: a Lib Dem revival and a Labour comeback in Scotland.

Labour hasn’t won the popular vote in England since 2001, iirc. The Lib Dems being a force helps Labour. They traditionally won a significant section of southern seats and cut into Tory vote shares in marginals (occasionally it did go against Labour).

That’s assuming those Red Wall voters come back to the fold - which isn’t a given because the Tories have already used the slogan ‘Keep Brexit Done’.

Personally, I don’t see a route to power for Labour for 10 years.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Two things in UK politics need to happen for Labour to have a realistic shot at power: a Lib Dem revival and a Labour comeback in Scotland.

Labour hasn’t won the popular vote in England since 2001, iirc. The Lib Dems being a force helps Labour. They traditionally won a significant section of southern seats and cut into Tory vote shares in marginals (occasionally it did go against Labour).

That’s assuming those Red Wall voters come back to the fold - which isn’t a given because the Tories have already used the slogan ‘Keep Brexit Done’.

Personally, I don’t see a route to power for Labour for 10 years.

A clincher for the Tories in 2015 was ‘vote Labour get SNP’ after of course Labour sacrificed itself as an entity in Scotland to save the union the year before. They made the same (less crucial) argument in 2019 and it’s those fuckers who will probably form the last UK government. As Gordon Brown said, the UK is on the verge of being a failed state.

 

[Brylowes]

Supposing Boris is removed before the next election and replaced with someone who isn’t a total buffoon, for argument’s sake let’s say Jeremy Hunt. You’ve got two ‘moderate’ candidates between whom there isn’t much substantial difference. We have been there before and the Tories will still win.

I don’t see how Labour wins again to be honest. We’ve become like the US where it’s all about the personality and nothing substantive

I completely agree, it’s populist politics for the masses, I know plenty of people who vote/ like Boris because he makes them laugh.
Might as well install Simon Cowell as speaker and Ant and Dec as lead political commentators.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I completely agree, it’s populist politics for the masses, I know plenty of people who vote/ like Boris because he makes them laugh.
Might as well install Simon Cowell as speaker and Ant and Dec as lead political commentators.

It’s the same with Sturgeon’s ratings and their tie to the independence vote. Sure, perceive her to be competent (which I dispute but OK), but would you vote to separate a country because of who’s in charge at the time? It’s all short termist, reactionary, quick buck politics that doesn’t actually fix the problems.

 

[Brylowes]

It’s the same with Sturgeon’s ratings and their tie to the independence vote. Sure, perceive her to be competent (which I dispute but OK), but would you vote to separate a country because of who’s in charge at the time? It’s all short termist, reactionary, quick buck politics that doesn’t actually fix the problems.

Hmmm, it’s a bit like selling a stadium because of who’s in charge at the time,

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

A clincher for the Tories in 2015 was ‘vote Labour get SNP’ after of course Labour sacrificed itself as an entity in Scotland to save the union the year before. They made the same (less crucial) argument in 2019 and it’s those fuckers who will probably form the last UK government. As Gordon Brown said, the UK is on the verge of being a failed state.

The main issue in Scotland is that Tories are gobbling up the Unionist vote. Scottish Labour still hasn’t got a strong position on independence.

Likewise, in the rest of the UK, when it came to Brexit, Labour dithered and tried to appease both Leave and Remain. In 2019 it haemorrhaged votes to both unambiguously Leave and Remain parties. Labour fundamentally did not come to grips with both referendum results.

The 2010s should show to any aspiring political leader that if you try to sit on the fence, you run the risk of getting impaled.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

The main issue in Scotland is that Tories are gobbling up the Unionist vote. Scottish Labour still hasn’t got a strong position on independence.

Likewise, in the rest of the UK, when it came to Brexit, Labour dithered and tried to appease both Leave and Remain. In 2019 it haemorrhaged votes to both unambiguously Leave and Remain parties. Labour fundamentally did not come to grips with both referendum results.

The 2010s should show to any aspiring political leader that if you try to sit on the fence, you run the risk of getting impaled.

To be honest I would drop ‘Scottish Labour’ in favour of ‘Progressive Unionist’ or something like that. Though the horse bolted years ago.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

To be honest I would drop ‘Scottish Labour’ in favour of ‘Progressive Unionist’ or something like that. Though the horse bolted years ago.

It’s difficult to imagine a more dysfunctional political entity than the Labour Party. Then there’s Scottish Labour.

 

[Grendel]

Best joke for decades a Tory party levelling up the country

Which is just a boring sound byte. A lot of people here seem to see New Zealand as some kind of socialist utopia (it of course is capitalist as is every scandavian society as none are stupid enough to believe the capture of means of production from the private sector as a way to evenly distribute wealth is remotely intelligent) and yet it has and continues to have policies which result in wealth distribution between the rich and the poor almost identical to the U.K.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Which is just a boring sound byte. A lot of people here seem to see New Zealand as some kind of socialist utopia (it of course is capitalist as is every scandavian society as none are stupid enough to believe the capture of means of production from the private sector as a way to evenly distribute wealth is remotely intelligent) and yet it has and continues to have policies which result in wealth distribution between the rich and the poor almost identical to the U.K.

Nobody has claimed NZ is socialist or even said they want a pure socialist system?

 

[clint van damme]

Which is just a boring sound byte. A lot of people here seem to see New Zealand as some kind of socialist utopia (it of course is capitalist as is every scandavian society as none are stupid enough to believe the capture of means of production from the private sector as a way to evenly distribute wealth is remotely intelligent) and yet it has and continues to have policies which result in wealth distribution between the rich and the poor almost identical to the U.K.

New Zealand does have almost identical wealth distribution as the UK but the Scandinavian countries you mention don't. Sweden particularly has an far more even distribution.

But you're right to say they are capitalists countries which is what I said earlier, it isn't capitalism but a certain sort of capitalism which is the issue.

 

[skybluetony176]

Which is just a boring sound byte. A lot of people here seem to see New Zealand as some kind of socialist utopia (it of course is capitalist as is every scandavian society as none are stupid enough to believe the capture of means of production from the private sector as a way to evenly distribute wealth is remotely intelligent) and yet it has and continues to have policies which result in wealth distribution between the rich and the poor almost identical to the U.K.

Accusing someone else of using boring sound bytes then go on to use boring sound bytes. Socialism is a wide spectrum just like the right. The Norwegian model of socialism for instance that the Scandinavian countries and New Zealand for that matter specifically embraces elements of capitalism, it just wraps it in social conscience and doesn’t give it the keys to the candy shop.
One personal example I saw of this was at the beginning of the Covid crisis. We deal on a regular basis with a large, very successful Scandinavian multi National who sent us a letter informing us that in the current light of what’s going on they will be paying all suppliers invoices upon receipt to aid their supply network with cash flow in an uncertain climate. Capitalism with a social conscience. Socialism is just a social conscience, a lack of I’m alright Jack so sod the rest.

 

[shmmeee]

When Corbyn went 3 points ahead of May in the polls centrists said it was poor and he should be thrashing her.

Yet Starmer is polling similar against a, I think it's fair to say, worse PM and it's a resounding success apparently.

And if likeability gets you elected Starmers had it. He has no personality and is up against someone who for all his faults does (Though I'm not sure he'll be in situ come the next election).

That was also a colossal misjudgment of the public too. From 2016 onwards the public have split basically straight down the middle. Johnson secured the old Labour vote May couldn’t and the Lib Dem’s abandoned us, but other than that it was basically the same.

Starmer is another Biden and getting the same misjudged comments from people beforehand. It won’t be some glorious Thins Can Only Get Better medley, but he’s got us back in contention from 20 points behind in extraordinary circumstances.

Let’s see where all this shakes out. People are loathe to turn against a government in a crisis and that’s all we’ve had under Johnson. Now Brexit has been Done and when the pandemic is over the landscape will be very different and competence will come to the fore IMO.

 

[clint van damme]

Accusing someone else of using boring sound bytes then go on to use boring sound bytes. Socialism is a wide spectrum just like the right. The Norwegian model of socialism for instance that the Scandinavian countries and New Zealand for that matter specifically embraces elements of capitalism, it just wraps it in social conscience and doesn’t give it the keys to the candy shop.
One personal example I saw of this was at the beginning of the Covid crisis. We deal on a regular basis with a large, very successful Scandinavian multi National who sent us a letter informing us that in the current light of what’s going on they will be paying all suppliers invoices upon receipt to aid their supply network with cash flow in an uncertain climate. Capitalism with a social conscience. Socialism is just a social conscience, a lack of I’m alright Jack so sod the rest.

British environmentalist Jonathan Porritt has written about this. A lot of his peers believe capitalism cannot solve the human races environmental issues.
He believes capitalism is the only answer but it needs tweeking, he refers to it as compassionate capitalism or sustainable capitalism.

 

[clint van damme]

Now Brexit has been Done and when the pandemic is over the landscape will be very different and competence will come to the fore IMO.

let's hope so, god knows we need it to.

 

[Grendel]

British environmentalist Jonathan Porritt has written about this. A lot of his peers believe capitalism cannot solve the human races environmental issues.
He believes capitalism is the only answer but it needs tweeking, he refers to it as compassionate capitalism or sustainable capitalism.

His net worth is around £5 million - a real true comrade

 

[clint van damme]

His net worth is around £5 million - a real true comrade

he's not claiming to be a 'comrade'. Weird comment.

 

[Grendel]

New Zealand does have almost identical wealth distribution as the UK but the Scandinavian countries you mention don't. Sweden particularly has an far more even distribution.

But you're right to say they are capitalists countries which is what I said earlier, it isn't capitalism but a certain sort of capitalism which is the issue.

Sweden is interesting

https://www.eapn.eu/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/EAPN-PW2019-Sweden-EN-EAPN-4306.pdf

 

[clint van damme]

Sweden is interesting

https://www.eapn.eu/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/EAPN-PW2019-Sweden-EN-EAPN-4306.pdf

pretty much the same problems as the UK though their GINI coefficient is better it has been rising for years, as has the UKs.

These problems really need fixing. Strong economies shouldn't be seeing ever increasing rises in poverty or homelessness. We should be able to fix these issues.

 

[Brylowes]

Well if there’s one thing this pandemic and it’s economic fallout has shone a light on, everyone’s a socialist when the need arises.

 

[skybluetony176]

His net worth is around £5 million - a real true comrade

Another lazy sound byte.

 

[skybluetony176]

Well if there’s one thing this pandemic and it’s economic fallout has shone a light on, everyone’s a socialist when the need arises.

Same when the banks collapsed because capitalism was allowed to behave like kids in the sweet shop. Socialism to the rescue, bail out the banks and make the things not responsible for the collapse pay the price. As a wise man said "Austerity is the idea that the 2008 financial crash was caused by Wolverhampton having too many libraries.". Capitalist who are out of control rely on socialism to bale them out at the cost of a continuation of socialism for the masses.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Same when the banks collapsed because capitalism was allowed to behave like kids in the sweet shop. Socialism to the rescue, bail out the banks and make the things not responsible for the collapse pay the price. As a wise man said "Austerity is the idea that the 2008 financial crash was caused by Wolverhampton having too many libraries.". Capitalist who are out of control rely on socialism to bale them out at the cost of a continuation of socialism for the masses.

The great MLK did once say 'socialism for the rich, rugged individualism for the poor'

 

[Grendel]

Nobody has claimed NZ is socialist or even said they want a pure socialist system?

Do not diss Tone he knows his socialism when he sees it

I think you can add Sweden, New Zealand, Costa Rica and Luxembourg to the Socialists list just of the top of my head. Costa Rica is actually a massive socialist success story, the country has been transformed over the last decade.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Do not diss Tone he knows his socialism when he sees it

In which case I don't agree with him. The truth is most countries like ours have a blend of capitalist and socialist policy agendas, the question is more where the balance should lie between the two. Even the USA still maintains a social security system, state education, emergency medical treatment for all, subsidised healthcare for the elderly and very poor and so on.

 

[It’sabatch87]

There has not been a socialist election victory in the uk since late 1974,I think socialism is finished here.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

There has not been a socialist election victory in the uk since late 1974,I think socialism is finished here.

Never say never

 

[mrtrench]

Never say never

Agree. We shouldn't be complacent.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

There has not been a socialist election victory in the uk since late 1974,I think socialism is finished here.

To my knowledge the last Communist MP was elected in 1945 and a TUSC candidate has never been elected?

 

[fernandopartridge]

There has not been a socialist election victory in the uk since late 1974,I think socialism is finished here.

What's happened since 1974?