Dan Bartlett (2 Viewers)

[Briles]

Forgot about him. Turned out for the u23s today. I know a year of the 2 hes been here he had an ACL injury, still only 20, anyone know much about him?

 

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[PVA]

I think he played one game for the first team (FL Trophy or League Cup) and didn't look very good to be honest. But from memory it was a poor team performance as a whole so unfair to judge him on that.

Get the feeling he was signed as an u23 squad filler rather than a prospect for the first team though.

 

[mrtrench]

Get the feeling he was signed as an u23 squad filler rather than a prospect for the first team though.

I'm sure you're right. I expect the Management team had a meeting to discuss who they should sign as filler for the U23 squad who would never make the first team. I bet that's the way they operate all the time: looking for ways to spend money that will never pay back.

 

[PVA]

I'm sure you're right. I expect the Management team had a meeting to discuss who they should sign as filler for the U23 squad who would never make the first team. I bet that's the way they operate all the time: looking for ways to spend money that will never pay back.

Well that's exactly what they do. Chris Badlan said so.

But I'm sure you know better than our Head of Recruitment.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Well that's exactly what they do. Chris Badlan said so.

But I'm sure you know better than our Head of Recruitment.

But you must surely sign them with some hope that they will develop into a potential first teamer. Otherwise what's the point? Signing someone you know isn't going to be good enough? You're just wasting wages and we haven't got any budget to waste on U23 fillers. Taking up spots that could either be used to get first teamers that haven't been playing much some minutes or a chance to see if some of the academy lads can step up.

Of course you're going to have to accept most probably won't make it but it has to be the intention that you're seeing enough in them that they might.

 

[fatso]

TBF, it now looks like Bakayoko, Kastaneer, Bosma, Mason, Hilsner, and Jobello Were all signed as fillers and nothing else.

 

[skyblueelephant76]

TBF, it now looks like Bakayoko, Kastaneer, Bosma, Mason, Hilsner, and Jobello Were all signed as fillers and nothing else.

Jobello was ever present in the first 10 league games last season before he got injured, he wasn't signed as a 'filler'.

 

[fatso]

Jobello was ever present in the first 10 league games last season before he got injured, he wasn't signed as a 'filler'.

Then he should be congratulated for turning into one.

 

[PVA]

But you must surely sign them with some hope that they will develop into a potential first teamer. Otherwise what's the point? Signing someone you know isn't going to be good enough? You're just wasting wages and we haven't got any budget to waste on U23 fillers. Taking up spots that could either be used to get first teamers that haven't been playing much some minutes or a chance to see if some of the academy lads can step up.

Of course you're going to have to accept most probably won't make it but it has to be the intention that you're seeing enough in them that they might.

But that's the point, they aren't taking up spots that could be used for first teamers or academy kids - they are supplementing them.

It's important to have an u23 squad for the reasons you mentioned, but without the squad fillers it wouldn't be possible to put out an u23 team. The academy play once a week as it is so don't want to burn the kids out with two games a week every week and you don't want first teamers playing in the 23s every week.

As such you need some fillers to literally make up the numbers so we can field a 23s team.

Of course there are players who are signed with a view to stepping up to the first team (Hyam, Drysdale for example), but then some are signed as fillers - youngsters released elsewhere signed for free on low wages who might have a small chance at stepping up but the reality is they likely won't progress past the 23s.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

But that's the point, they aren't taking up spots that could be used for first teamers or academy kids - they are supplementing them.

It's important to have an u23 squad for the reasons you mentioned, but without the squad fillers it wouldn't be possible to put out an u23 team. The academy play once a week as it is so don't want to burn the kids out with two games a week every week and you don't want first teamers playing in the 23s every week.

As such you need some fillers to literally make up the numbers so we can field a 23s team.

Of course there are players who are signed with a view to stepping up to the first team (Hyam, Drysdale for example), but then some are signed as fillers - youngsters released elsewhere signed for free on low wages who might have a small chance at stepping up but the reality is they likely won't progress past the 23s.

How many players have we got that are back-up first teamers that when needed to come in due to injury/suspension/form are totally off the pace due to lack of match practice? These games should be used to at least give them that. If you're signing players just to fill the U23's without expecting them to progress bin the U23's off and play behind closed door friendlies for the squad players and test the academy lads out once in a while. Stop wasting an already meagre budget on players you don't think will make it. It might only be a small amount here or a small amount there but it all adds up and you take on half a dozen of those and you've got the money for someone who would be looking to be at least around the first team squad. That's far more useful to a club like us with a small budget.

I'm all for taking a punt on a young prospect but not if we're signing them just for the sake of it. We either see a potential there that could result in progressing to the first team or we don't sign them full stop.

 

[PVA]

How many players have we got that are back-up first teamers that when needed to come in due to injury/suspension/form are totally off the pace due to lack of match practice? These games should be used to at least give them that. If you're signing players just to fill the U23's without expecting them to progress bin the U23's off and play behind closed door friendlies for the squad players and test the academy lads out once in a while. Stop wasting an already meagre budget on players you don't think will make it. It might only be a small amount here or a small amount there but it all adds up and you take on half a dozen of those and you've got the money for someone who would be looking to be at least around the first team squad. That's far more useful to a club like us with a small budget.

I'm all for taking a punt on a young prospect but not if we're signing them just for the sake of it. We either see a potential there that could result in progressing to the first team or we don't sign them full stop.

I agree that we should have more first teamers getting minutes in the u23s but that's not how Robins sees it, hence the need for squad fillers.

 

[The Philosopher]

TBF, it now looks like Bakayoko, Kastaneer, Bosma, Mason, Hilsner, and Jobello Were all signed as fillers and nothing else.

Sam Mc was a filler / punt from non-league. You never know how a player is going to turn out until you get them in the camp.

 

[Gibbo]

Sam Mc was a filler / punt from non-league. You never know how a player is going to turn out until you get them in the camp.

Yes, but what is our conversion rate in last 4 years? Bayliss, Shipley, Sam Mac and it looks like Eccles. That means probably 20 or so rejects. Is that good? And the higher we are up the League the harder it is to blood them

 

[mark82]

Then he should be congratulated for turning into one.

Had a serious injury, followed by setbacks.

 

[Frostie]

Yes, but what is our conversion rate in last 4 years? Bayliss, Shipley, Sam Mac and it looks like Eccles. That means probably 20 or so rejects. Is that good? And the higher we are up the League the harder it is to blood them

Depends what you mean by "conversion rate"?

If you mean go on to have a career with us or others in the EFL or PL then I believe it's one of the highest conversion rates in the country. It's why our Academy/Development staff are often sought after by other clubs - Rioch, Halsall, Stevens, Widdrington etc.

 

[ccfc1234]

TBF, it now looks like Bakayoko, Kastaneer, Bosma, Mason, Hilsner, and Jobello Were all signed as fillers and nothing else.

Badlan has a very good record at identifying players who won't make an impact at first team level. If his MO is as described above, he has assembled a decent, if not slightly expensive U23 squad.

His words about Kastaneer ought to be in a capability report of some kind, they are so misaligned to reality. If he signed Kasta on a punt and never saw him live, fair enough. However, if you believe some on here we scout in person which makes it all the more of an error of judgement and it's not an isolated incident.

 

[Frostie]

Badlan has a very good record at identifying players who won't make an impact at first team level. If his MO is as described above, he has assembled a decent, if not slightly expensive U23 squad.

His words about Kastaneer ought to be in a capability report of some kind, they are so misaligned to reality. If he signed Kasta on a punt and never saw him live, fair enough. However, if you believe some on here we scout in person which makes it all the more of an error of judgement and it's not an isolated incident.

Interesting take.
Can you advise of all these other clubs that have a better record from a similar outlay?

 

[PVA]

Badlan has a very good record at identifying players who won't make an impact at first team level. If his MO is as described above, he has assembled a decent, if not slightly expensive U23 squad.

His words about Kastaneer ought to be in a capability report of some kind, they are so misaligned to reality. If he signed Kasta on a punt and never saw him live, fair enough. However, if you believe some on here we scout in person which makes it all the more of an error of judgement and it's not an isolated incident.

I have no idea if Kastaneer was watched in person but I wouldn't be surprised if he wasn't.

The days of sending a scout to watch every possible signing are long gone.

I wouldn't be surprised if none of Kasta, Jobello, Hilssner and Da Costa were watched in person by Badlan.

Hamer more likely due to the fee involved.

 

[ccfc1234]

I have no idea if Kastaneer was watched in person but I wouldn't be surprised if he wasn't.

The days of sending a scout to watch every possible signing are long gone.

I wouldn't be surprised if none of Kasta, Jobello, Hilssner and Da Costa were watched in person by Badlan.

Hamer more likely due to the fee involved.

I had a long debate on here where I was told the opposite and the moneyball approach was not City's and we had a great scouting infrastructure. I would tend to agree with you and a family.friend who is the agent for a few Newcastle players that its mostly done on stats and videos unless the outlay is significant.

 

[ccfc1234]

Interesting take.
Can you advise of all these other clubs that have a better record from a similar outlay?

As a % of outlay there are quite a few. It only takes a Ben Godfrey at Norwich signed from York for very little, sold for 25m. That was clearly the hope for the likes of Thompson, Drysdale, Morgan Williams etc but they have all struggled and are finding they best fit in teams well short of Championship standard.
Got to buy a ticket but Badlan has brought quite a few!

 

[Frostie]

As a % of outlay there are quite a few. It only takes a Ben Godfrey at Norwich signed from York for very little, sold for 25m. That was clearly the hope for the likes of Thompson, Drysdale, Morgan Williams etc but they have all struggled and are finding they best fit in teams well short of Championship standard.
Got to buy a ticket but Badlan has brought quite a few!

I meant how many "successful" transfers others were making with such small outlays.

You've so far managed to name 1 but it's actually incorrect.
Although the initial payment for Godfrey to York was pretty small it included various clauses including a sizeable sell on fee so actually Norwich paid over £2.5m for him.
To give you an idea that would be our highest outlay on a single player since Lee Hughes 20 years ago.

How many of their other transfers have been as successful as Godfrey for small outlays though?

Ben Marshall £1.5m & a 4 year contract on huge wages. Had to tear up his contract & pay him off after just 1 year & he immediately dropped into the 12th tier!
Moritz Leitner £1.5m & again 4 year deal on big money, frozen out for over a year on huge money to sit around doing nothing.
Tom Trybull, Josip Drmic, similar story. Both were free transfers but being paid huge money by Norwich to play for other clubs.


Brentford are the model many want to emulate but even then the fees they pay are miles above what we're paying.

You don't think we've done quite well out of the likes of McCallum though?
Which other clubs have signed a teenager for nothing & sold him for £3m+ within 18 months?

What was the outlay on our starting XI in the Championship on Monday incidentally? All bar Eccles & Kelly recruited by our current setup of course.

 

[ccfc1234]

I meant how many "successful" transfers others were making with such small outlays.

You've so far managed to name 1 but it's actually incorrect.
Although the initial payment for Godfrey to York was pretty small it included various clauses including a sizeable sell on fee so actually Norwich paid over £2.5m for him.
To give you an idea that would be our highest outlay on a single player since Lee Hughes 20 years ago.

How many of their other transfers have been as successful as Godfrey for small outlays though?

Ben Marshall £1.5m & a 4 year contract on huge wages. Had to tear up his contract & pay him off after just 1 year & he immediately dropped into the 12th tier!
Moritz Leitner £1.5m & again 4 year deal on big money, frozen out for over a year on huge money to sit around doing nothing.
Tom Trybull, Josip Drmic, similar story. Both were free transfers but being paid huge money by Norwich to play for other clubs.


Brentford are the model many want to emulate but even then the fees they pay are miles above what we're paying.

You don't think we've done quite well out of the likes of McCallum though?
Which other clubs have signed a teenager for nothing & sold him for £3m+ within 18 months?

What was the outlay on our starting XI in the Championship on Monday incidentally? All bar Eccles & Kelly recruited by our current setup of course.

Frostie, with respect you do get a bit carried away with yourself and have drawn some slightly strange and incoherent parallels. I used the Ben Godfrey transfer simply as an example of how a player can be plucked from relative football obscurity (York city) and can subsequently net a club 20 million profit. I was not citing the Norwich transfers as a collective. Why have you therefore listed Norwich city signings? There are many small teams like Accrington Stanley who have cut their cloth well and trade players to balance the books.

Back to Ben Godfrey you quite strangely suggested Norwich paid 2.5 million? That statement is wholly inaccurate and a blatant manipulation of the facts to prove a spurious point. Norwich paid the modest fee of 150k with some stratigic add ons and sell on clauses inserted. Given he was sold for circa 25m of course York cashed in.
By the same token we paid very modest money for Declan drysdale and had he not been average and had instead flourished and was brought by Tottenham for 25m are you suggesting that Tranmere would not have got a lot more from their likely add ons?

 

[Frostie]

Frostie, with respect you do get a bit carried away with yourself and have drawn some slightly strange and incoherent parallels. I used the Ben Godfrey transfer simply as an example of how a player can be plucked from relative football obscurity (York city) and can subsequently net a club 20 million profit. I was not citing the Norwich transfers as a collective. Why have you therefore listed Norwich city signings? There are many small teams like Accrington Stanley who have cut their cloth well and trade players to balance the books.

Back to Ben Godfrey you quite strangely suggested Norwich paid 2.5 million? That statement is wholly inaccurate and a blatant manipulation of the facts to prove a spurious point. Norwich paid the modest fee of 150k with some stratigic add ons and sell on clauses inserted. Given he was sold for circa 25m of course York cashed in.
By the same token we paid very modest money for Declan drysdale and had he not been average and had instead flourished and was brought by Tottenham for 25m are you suggesting that Tranmere would not have got a lot more from their likely add ons?

For some reason, people can't be happy with the incredible progress we've made in recent years & instead want to belittle the incredible work that goes in behind the scenes without any understanding of it.

The whole point you seemingly fail to grasp is how many "successful" transfers are others others making with such small outlays??
You've managed to list 1 transfer by 1 club 5 years ago whilst, as I've highlighted, they are also splurging huge amounts on duds - we are not.

Badlan has a very good record at identifying players who won't make an impact at first team level.

Do you honestly believe that to be true?
I'll ask again... What was the outlay on our starting XI in the Championship on Monday?

 

[Torquay Sky Blue]

Some of them need filling in

 

[SBchimp]

I don't think Kastaneer was ever considered as a 23 or a filler. He was seen more as a marque signing, hence the reason he's on a never ending contract! The likes of Bartlett, McCallum, Drysdale, Newton and indeed Reid are brought in as projects and have to be seen as having a chance, I don't think anyone would come into the 23s group as a no-hope. The same can be said for the 18s, a few key, plenty of projects, some of which may be long shots.
That said there have been a few duds, none of which would have cost much money to recruit within the 23's tho.

 

[larry_david]

Think Bartlett was rated highly, he made his debut very early on in the League Cup but the injury has taken that out of him now. I saw him play a few weeks ago, admittedly only one game, but he didn't bring much to the table.

I'm very curious to see what happens at the end of the season regarding some of the under 23s.

Williams for example excelled on his league debut last season (actually was it season before) but seems to have stood still.
Drysdale i'm sure is the long term Mcfadz.
Young went out and did well on loan, has come back and got something like 5 assists under his belt and a goal.
Ngandu was highly rated but seems to have stood still, he is under 23s capt though in William's absence.
Bremang has always looked good when i've seen him but he's hardly getting any game time now so yo have to assume the worst.
Jack Burroughs looks like he's got a chance, and MR spoke really highly of him a week or so ago.

Exciting times but let's see what happens in the coming months. I'd like to think they all have a chance of kicking on.

 

[ccfc1234]

8

For some reason, people can't be happy with the incredible progress we've made in recent years & instead want to belittle the incredible work that goes in behind the scenes without any understanding of it.

The whole point you seemingly fail to grasp is how many "successful" transfers are others others making with such small outlays??
You've managed to list 1 transfer by 1 club 5 years ago whilst, as I've highlighted, they are also splurging huge amounts on duds - we are not.



Do you honestly believe that to be true?
I'll ask again... What was the outlay on our starting XI in the Championship on Monday?

Frostie splurging is relative to income and bank balance. It's entirely possible that 100k spent by us equates to 10million or more to another club.

You have again asserted that I don't know what goes on behind the scenes? Do you? By phrasing it as you have, your suggesting your privy to things the majority are not. Please don't again send me links to Michael Roses scout bigging up his customers (Badlan), it's gullible.

I am well aware we have signed a lot of players and some have done a decent job but it's impossible to know who is identifying which players. I have an article link I can send to Badlen talking up his scouting methods in finding Dexter Walters, Jordy H, Mason, Baka, Morgan Williams, Thompson, Drysdale, Chaplin and we cant forget Kasta and the adulation he poured on him and the claims he was levels above CCFC. Now I am a believer in judging what people say and Badlan has name checked those signings as part of his philosophy and process of creating a convayer belt to the first team. Chaplin aside, who was average with us but there was mitigation and we didn't loose money on. Who else will be a regular first team player?

We have signed Marosi, Sheaf, Walker and a few others but they were not exactly under the radar and were what we could afford at the time. Some have been decent and some look like this should be their last season, if we stay up.

I feel Badlan has been very average in his role and his statistical analysis of players often extremely wide of the mark. I accept you disagree and you think he is great. But I would respectfully suggest the progression of those we are taking punts on don't bare that out. Also his words on Kasta were so inflated and missjudged it's impossible not to cringe for him and wonder if the guy on this planet. I suspect however if you ask Kasta' s agent he (like Roses' agent) thinks Balden is a legend and his scouting methods are so progressive, that only a few informed people in the game, and yourself are capable of comprehending their brilliance.

We both love CCFC and I hope this summer we sign players of a calibre to take us forward and Badlan is the man to thank. I just right now, based on my own views of his work, have doubts he is as capable as you purport him to be. Hope I am wrong tho and please do gloat if he identifies players to take us to the next level as I am happy to eat humble pie. On that note, we discussed Mason mount a while back as my Stamford bridge ST holding mates didn't rate him and you did. Since I think it's fair to say your perspective has been overwhelmingly proven to be the more informed one and he looks definite starter for the national team this summer.

 

[Deleted member 11652]

8
Frostie splurging is relative to income and bank balance. It's entirely possible that 100k spent by us equates to 10million or more to another club.

You have again asserted that I don't know what goes on behind the scenes? Do you? By phrasing it as you have, your suggesting your privy to things the majority are not. Please don't again send me links to Michael Roses scout bigging up his customers (Badlan), it's gullible.

I am well aware we have signed a lot of players and some have done a decent job but it's impossible to know who is identifying which players. I have an article link I can send to Badlen talking up his scouting methods in finding Dexter Walters, Jordy H, Mason, Baka, Morgan Williams, Thompson, Drysdale, Chaplin and we cant forget Kasta and the adulation he poured on him and the claims he was levels above CCFC. Now I am a believer in judging what people say and Badlan has name checked those signings as part of his philosophy and process of creating a convayer belt to the first team. Chaplin aside, who was average with us but there was mitigation and we didn't loose money on. Who else will be a regular first team player?

We have signed Marosi, Sheaf, Walker and a few others but they were not exactly under the radar and were what we could afford at the time. Some have been decent and some look like this should be their last season, if we stay up.

I feel Badlan has been very average in his role and his statistical analysis of players often extremely wide of the mark. I accept you disagree and you think he is great. But I would respectfully suggest the progression of those we are taking punts on don't bare that out. Also his words on Kasta were so inflated and missjudged it's impossible not to cringe for him and wonder if the guy on this planet. I suspect however if you ask Kasta' s agent he (like Roses' agent) thinks Balden is a legend and his scouting methods are so progressive, that only a few informed people in the game, and yourself are capable of comprehending their brilliance.

We both love CCFC and I hope this summer we sign players of a calibre to take us forward and Badlan is the man to thank. I just right now, based on my own views of his work, have doubts he is as capable as you purport him to be. Hope I am wrong tho and please do gloat if he identifies players to take us to the next level as I am happy to eat humble pie. On that note, we discussed Mason mount a while back as my Stamford bridge ST holding mates didn't rate him and you did. Since I think it's fair to say your perspective has been overwhelmingly proven to be the more informed one and he looks definite starter for the national team this summer.

Great post

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

8
Frostie splurging is relative to income and bank balance. It's entirely possible that 100k spent by us equates to 10million or more to another club.

You have again asserted that I don't know what goes on behind the scenes? Do you? By phrasing it as you have, your suggesting your privy to things the majority are not. Please don't again send me links to Michael Roses scout bigging up his customers (Badlan), it's gullible.

I am well aware we have signed a lot of players and some have done a decent job but it's impossible to know who is identifying which players. I have an article link I can send to Badlen talking up his scouting methods in finding Dexter Walters, Jordy H, Mason, Baka, Morgan Williams, Thompson, Drysdale, Chaplin and we cant forget Kasta and the adulation he poured on him and the claims he was levels above CCFC. Now I am a believer in judging what people say and Badlan has name checked those signings as part of his philosophy and process of creating a convayer belt to the first team. Chaplin aside, who was average with us but there was mitigation and we didn't loose money on. Who else will be a regular first team player?

We have signed Marosi, Sheaf, Walker and a few others but they were not exactly under the radar and were what we could afford at the time. Some have been decent and some look like this should be their last season, if we stay up.

I feel Badlan has been very average in his role and his statistical analysis of players often extremely wide of the mark. I accept you disagree and you think he is great. But I would respectfully suggest the progression of those we are taking punts on don't bare that out. Also his words on Kasta were so inflated and missjudged it's impossible not to cringe for him and wonder if the guy on this planet. I suspect however if you ask Kasta' s agent he (like Roses' agent) thinks Balden is a legend and his scouting methods are so progressive, that only a few informed people in the game, and yourself are capable of comprehending their brilliance.

We both love CCFC and I hope this summer we sign players of a calibre to take us forward and Badlan is the man to thank. I just right now, based on my own views of his work, have doubts he is as capable as you purport him to be. Hope I am wrong tho and please do gloat if he identifies players to take us to the next level as I am happy to eat humble pie. On that note, we discussed Mason mount a while back as my Stamford bridge ST holding mates didn't rate him and you did. Since I think it's fair to say your perspective has been overwhelmingly proven to be the more informed one and he looks definite starter for the national team this summer.

Like lift muzac, that just sounds wrong on every level.

 

[Frostie]

8
Frostie splurging is relative to income and bank balance. It's entirely possible that 100k spent by us equates to 10million or more to another club.

You have again asserted that I don't know what goes on behind the scenes? Do you? By phrasing it as you have, your suggesting your privy to things the majority are not. Please don't again send me links to Michael Roses scout bigging up his customers (Badlan), it's gullible.

I am well aware we have signed a lot of players and some have done a decent job but it's impossible to know who is identifying which players. I have an article link I can send to Badlen talking up his scouting methods in finding Dexter Walters, Jordy H, Mason, Baka, Morgan Williams, Thompson, Drysdale, Chaplin and we cant forget Kasta and the adulation he poured on him and the claims he was levels above CCFC. Now I am a believer in judging what people say and Badlan has name checked those signings as part of his philosophy and process of creating a convayer belt to the first team. Chaplin aside, who was average with us but there was mitigation and we didn't loose money on. Who else will be a regular first team player?

We have signed Marosi, Sheaf, Walker and a few others but they were not exactly under the radar and were what we could afford at the time. Some have been decent and some look like this should be their last season, if we stay up.

I feel Badlan has been very average in his role and his statistical analysis of players often extremely wide of the mark. I accept you disagree and you think he is great. But I would respectfully suggest the progression of those we are taking punts on don't bare that out. Also his words on Kasta were so inflated and missjudged it's impossible not to cringe for him and wonder if the guy on this planet. I suspect however if you ask Kasta' s agent he (like Roses' agent) thinks Balden is a legend and his scouting methods are so progressive, that only a few informed people in the game, and yourself are capable of comprehending their brilliance.

We both love CCFC and I hope this summer we sign players of a calibre to take us forward and Badlan is the man to thank. I just right now, based on my own views of his work, have doubts he is as capable as you purport him to be. Hope I am wrong tho and please do gloat if he identifies players to take us to the next level as I am happy to eat humble pie. On that note, we discussed Mason mount a while back as my Stamford bridge ST holding mates didn't rate him and you did. Since I think it's fair to say your perspective has been overwhelmingly proven to be the more informed one and he looks definite starter for the national team this summer.

Fair enough, you're entitled to your opinion. Knowing how difficult player recruitment can be though I respectfully disagree with the majority of it (except the last point about Mason Mount obviously! )