Budget (8 Viewers)

[cov donkey kick]

Think robins will get money to trade but it will be a percentage of s/t revenue if he got 25% last season then 25% of a bigger take up will be increased.

 

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[HuckerbyDublinWhelan]

......... but Newcastle fans do pack out their ground and buy merchandise!!

And Ashley does buy players - Joelinton and Almiron cost 70 mil between them.

The fact they’re not worth that is neither here or there. Newcastle fans are the epitomy of entitled fans.

They’ve been telling Ashley to sell up and fuck off and at the same time expect him to pump in 100s of millions and are outraged he expects a return

 

[skybluesam66]

I guess the question is whether he will be prepared to wheel and deal with any of our major assets

O hare I would keep as his value will increase and difficult to replace

Hamer is a difficult one, if somebody came with a good offer, it may be worth listening - as that may enable us to invest across the 1st 11 and bring in 3 good championship players

At this stage, I am not sure if we have anybody else who would bring in enough to make a difference

 

[Deleted member 5849]

and are outraged he expects a return

I'm not entirely convinced a sport involving clubs, community, and people, is something where an owner should expect a return.

 

[mrtrench]

I guess the question is whether he will be prepared to wheel and deal with any of our major assets

O hare I would keep as his value will increase and difficult to replace

Hamer is a difficult one, if somebody came with a good offer, it may be worth listening - as that may enable us to invest across the 1st 11 and bring in 3 good championship players

At this stage, I am not sure if we have anybody else who would bring in enough to make a difference

I think it's unlikely that someone would pay enough for Hamer, who performed for only the first half of one season, such that we can buy three good Championship players with the proceeds. It might pay their wages if they came on frees.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

I think it's unlikely that someone would pay enough for Hamer, who performed for only the first half of one season, such that we can buy three good Championship players with the proceeds. It might pay their wages if they came on frees.

I guess we also have to think about whether selling somebody like Hamer stops us having to sell O'Hare, say.

tbh, next season has to be consolidation really. We'll now have a squad with championship experience, which we didn't have at the start of this season, so the likes of Hyam are hopefully going to learn from it. The art will be plucking the edge of squad players from other sides, the players with potential, and the occasional wildcard (coming back from injury etc - we don't do this bit well!). I doubt we'll see any established championship players as such.

14th next season would be an achievement.

 

[HuckerbyDublinWhelan]

I'm not entirely convinced a sport involving clubs, community, and people, is something where an owner should expect a return.

I think those days are long gone. They’re all businesses now whether we like it or not. The expenditure alone required to run a football club at a decent level runs into millions.

The only people with that capital are big businesses.

Fans have become more demanding, and ruthless, and as I said expect an owner to pump in millions and when it doesn’t work - they become hostile.

How can you expect anyone to take the vitriol that Ashley has taken and then throw their money in with no gratitude whatever.

 

[shmmeee]

I think those days are long gone. They’re all businesses now whether we like it or not. The expenditure alone required to run a football club at a decent level runs into millions.

The only people with that capital are big businesses.

Fans have become more demanding, and ruthless, and as I said expect an owner to pump in millions and when it doesn’t work - they become hostile.

How can you expect anyone to take the vitriol that Ashley has taken and then throw their money in with no gratitude whatever.

You can’t hold both the views you’ve expressed in this thread though.

Either they’re just businesses and like any business needs to attract customers with an attractive product.

Or they’re more than that and fans have some kind of moral obligation to support.

Can’t have it both ways.

 

[Legia Sky Blue]

And Ashley does buy players - Joelinton and Almiron cost 70 mil between them.

The fact they’re not worth that is neither here or there. Newcastle fans are the epitomy of entitled fans.

They’ve been telling Ashley to sell up and fuck off and at the same time expect him to pump in 100s of millions and are outraged he expects a return

Has Ashley pumped in 100s of millions or is that a lazy urban myth? On the face of it your quoting the excessive amounts spent on 2 under performing players backs that up, but the context changes somewhat when you consider Newcastle received £126m in TV payments last season alone. Add on gate money, match day revenue, sponsorship, merchandise sales etc, and the purchase of Joelinton and Almiron is perfectly affordable, without Ashley having to dip into his own funds.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

I think those days are long gone. They’re all businesses now whether we like it or not. The expenditure alone required to run a football club at a decent level runs into millions.

The only people with that capital are big businesses.

Fans have become more demanding, and ruthless, and as I said expect an owner to pump in millions and when it doesn’t work - they become hostile.

How can you expect anyone to take the vitriol that Ashley has taken and then throw their money in with no gratitude whatever.

They're only long gone because we consent to them being long gone.

The vitriol that the likes of Ashley get is as much because it's an unemotional investment opportunity. Of course some mentalists would not be happy regardless, but it's a lot easier to be tolerant of an owner who takes over because they want to give something back to community, runs out of money, so sells up. It's not easy to be tolerant of an owner such as ours who restricts our budget because they want payback on loans - that's having cake and eating it, spunking £millions on the hope of top flight payday and, when that doesn't work, being determined to find a return no matter what.

 

[mrtrench]

I guess we also have to think about whether selling somebody like Hamer stops us having to sell O'Hare, say.

tbh, next season has to be consolidation really. We'll now have a squad with championship experience, which we didn't have at the start of this season, so the likes of Hyam are hopefully going to learn from it. The art will be plucking the edge of squad players from other sides, the players with potential, and the occasional wildcard (coming back from injury etc - we don't do this bit well!). I doubt we'll see any established championship players as such.

14th next season would be an achievement.

Agree... I don't think we will be looking at established Championship players either... indeed I don't think we should.

 

[Grendel]

Yeah, I’m not judging until the transfer window shuts. Just saying that there’s a certain price of entry for the division and you’ve got to meet that before you really start to get the benefits of a 32k stadium. The idea that it’s consumers fault for not buying the product enough is nuts. If we are a top half Championship club we’d see 20k+ easily IMO, and it’s not a million miles off.

You only have to meet a entry price if you are bothered to have a ticket in the first place.

Our owners have no interest in the clubs as a succesful entity. It has clearly been funding operational losses and cash flow concerns where needed but is taking more money back than it pays in - this will have been stalled by the pandemic probably but they will still continue this approach.

More money will be raised on player sales and less invested back in. Money will continue be be paid back and whichever division we are in this will make no difference

 

[mrtrench]

They're only long gone because we consent to them being long gone.

The vitriol that the likes of Ashley get is as much because it's an unemotional investment opportunity. Of course some mentalists would not be happy regardless, but it's a lot easier to be tolerant of an owner who takes over because they want to give something back to community, runs out of money, so sells up. It's not easy to be tolerant of an owner such as ours who restricts our budget because they want payback on loans - that's having cake and eating it, spunking £millions on the hope of top flight payday and, when that doesn't work, being determined to find a return no matter what.

As much as I want to disagree, because I disagree with the notion that people should be expected to put money into something without a return, football has changed so much since the 70s that nobody in their right mind would put money into a club expecting both a profit and promotions. It has become a vanity project for the super-rich.

Even League 2 clubs make a loss most years.

 

[AFCCOVENTRY]

You only have to meet a entry price if you are bothered to have a ticket in the first place.

Our owners have no interest in the clubs as a succesful entity. It has clearly been funding operational losses and cash flow concerns where needed but is taking more money back than it pays in - this will have been stalled by the pandemic probably but they will still continue this approach.

More money will be raised on player sales and less invested back in. Money will continue be be paid back and whichever division we are in this will make no difference

Don’t be silly. Of course the owners want CCFC to be a successful entity.

 

[Sky Blue Harry H]

Our owners have no interest in the clubs as a succesful entity

If we are successful and that will generate more income, then you think our owners have no interest in that? It will affect cashflow, so they will obviously be interested in that, otherwise why would they be interested in generating cash from player sales?

 

[Deleted member 5849]

because I disagree with the notion that people should be expected to put money into something without a return,

People do that for all kinds of things though. Scouts, schools, playing groups, heritage, culture...

Of course you could argue that the return of owning a football club is the ego boost / the ability to lay at something we'd all love to do, really / the ability to use it as a networking tool etc.

 

[Grendel]

Don’t be silly. Of course the owners want CCFC to be a successful entity.

no they don’t if it requires a deviation from their strategy of recovering theit monies

It may happen it may not but it is of no interest to them if it requires spend to achieve it

 

[Grendel]

If we are successful and that will generate more income, then you think our owners have no interest in that? It will affect cashflow, so they will obviously be interested in that, otherwise why would they be interested in generating cash from player sales?

Player sales have sustained the club

The year we made a “profit” the operating loss was nearly £4 million from memory - sales keep the club existing

 

[mrtrench]

no they don’t if it requires a deviation from their strategy of recovering theit monies

It may happen it may not but it is of no interest to them if it requires spend to achieve it

SISU aren't stupid. So why would they put so much money into a football club, knowing that they almost all lose money all of the time?

They were wrong but I think they thought there were two reasons:

1. Primarily, I think it was a property play. They thought they could get the Ricoh for peanuts and then sell on immediately.

2. At the time, we had only just been relegated from the Premiership, having been there from the very start. Ranson convinced them that it wouldn't take a lot of money to get us back quickly. When has that ever worked for anyone ever? There's plenty done it and reached the top (was Jack Walker the first?), but none have made money from it.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

SISU aren't stupid. So why would they put so much money into a football club, knowing that they almost all lose money all of the time?

High risk v high return, innit. Either in terms of their whole portfolio they can afford a couple of high risk projects that, if they fail, c'est la vie, or people invest knowing full-well there's every chance they don't get their cash back, but are aware that the returns they *could* get are well beyond a Coventry Building Society ISA.

 

[HuckerbyDublinWhelan]

Has Ashley pumped in 100s of millions or is that a lazy urban myth? On the face of it your quoting the excessive amounts spent on 2 under performing players backs that up, but the context changes somewhat when you consider Newcastle received £126m in TV payments last season alone. Add on gate money, match day revenue, sponsorship, merchandise sales etc, and the purchase of Joelinton and Almiron is perfectly affordable, without Ashley having to dip into his own funds.

Newcastle’s wage bill is 65 million this year. That in itself is half that money.

Ashley isn’t a bad owner, he makes prudent decisions to keep Newcastle profitable. They may get relegated but he makes sure they get back up straight away.

They are worth the 300 million that Amanda Staveley offered because the business is a successful entity

They're only long gone because we consent to them being long gone.

The vitriol that the likes of Ashley get is as much because it's an unemotional investment opportunity. Of course some mentalists would not be happy regardless, but it's a lot easier to be tolerant of an owner who takes over because they want to give something back to community, runs out of money, so sells up. It's not easy to be tolerant of an owner such as ours who restricts our budget because they want payback on loans - that's having cake and eating it, spunking £millions on the hope of top flight payday and, when that doesn't work, being determined to find a return no matter what.

We had to consent to them to keep up. The community is running out of rich individuals who want to just blow their money on a football club

I would love a rich Arab - ala Man City to come in and throw a billion at us, but the reality is theyre not interested in us

Richard Overson is the closest we’ve got but I’d imagine every bit of investment he puts in gets him some sort of kick back down the line

 

[fernandopartridge]

I suspect that it's possible that the investors could be persuaded to put some more money in - although they must be pretty pissed off with the returns so far and may instead want to wait until we are top half with 20k gates before doing so. A final push if you like once we've done the groundwork to put us close.

There is another possibility. I don't know if CCFC is the only investment in the fund that the investors have bought. It's possible that the club is bundled in with other assets and that SISU decides how to spread money across all assets in that fund. If that were the case, it's possible that SISU could unilaterally decide to allocate some more money to CCFC in order to realise the Premiership money and a long-awaited profit and sale of the club.

It does seem likely to me that the investors are delighted that they are now within touching distance again after being so far away in the last 5 years or so.

I'm not clued up on this at all, but to what extent would SISU's investors know what their capital was being invested in?

 

[mrtrench]

I'm not clued up on this at all, but to what extent would SISU's investors know what their capital was being invested in?

100%. This isn't a "Fidelity UK Special Situations" unit trust (and even then the information is there for anyone who wants to find it). People putting money with SISU will be very wealthy and sophisticated investors... which may be through their Wealth Manager but they will know.

 

[Grendel]

I'm not clued up on this at all, but to what extent would SISU's investors know what their capital was being invested in?

I assume they would as hedge fund investments are high risk strategy investments

 

[Samo]

They are in a cash neutral world and can continue to pay down the loan account to the investors - a million was done in the last published accounts - they will not move for five years and whichever league we are now in will just adjust spend and continue to lay back money owed

But doesn't this depend on what the club is now worth, or rather, how much a buyer would be prepared to pay for it?

 

[Grendel]

SISU aren't stupid. So why would they put so much money into a football club, knowing that they almost all lose money all of the time?

They were wrong but I think they thought there were two reasons:

1. Primarily, I think it was a property play. They thought they could get the Ricoh for peanuts and then sell on immediately.

2. At the time, we had only just been relegated from the Premiership, having been there from the very start. Ranson convinced them that it wouldn't take a lot of money to get us back quickly. When has that ever worked for anyone ever? There's plenty done it and reached the top (was Jack Walker the first?), but none have made money from it.

Yes it’s worth remembering Sisu really were just a funding arm for Ranson who had convinced them he could deliver high returns

I don’t agree with the property play. Remember ranson was as a long lost poster once said like a cheap Tupperware salesman going from club to club to find a home for his shoddy investments. I think he had very specific intentions and certainly they were not for the good of the club

The property play only happened when they woke up and realised Ranson was just a shameless chancer and woefully out his depth and the money was all gone

 

[Grendel]

But doesn't this depend on what the club is now worth, or rather, how much a buyer would be prepared to pay for it?

No one to my knowledge has seriously tried to buy it and who would for the £20m asking price?

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

No one to my knowledge has seriously tried to buy it and who would for the £20m asking price?

I’m certain groups have seriously tried to buy over the last 2-3 years

 

[Grendel]

I’m certain groups have seriously tried to buy over the last 2-3 years

If you include Hoffman that wasn’t serious

 

[HuckerbyDublinWhelan]

No one to my knowledge has seriously tried to buy it and who would for the £20m asking price?

Is £20 million the asking price? Where’s that figure come from

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

If you include Hoffman that wasn’t serious

Nope friend I know from school who was part of a genuine consortium. Not sure who was heading it up

 

[Grendel]

Is £20 million the asking price? Where’s that figure come from

It’s the money owed in Otium (I thinks it’s less now) the point is if it’s paid off then that would I assume be a reason to sell

 

[Sky Blue Harry H]

Player sales have sustained the club

The year we made a “profit” the operating loss was nearly £4 million from memory - sales keep the club existing

Ergo, the less successful we are, the less likelihood of income via fans, the less likelihood of having players with value. This affects likely cash flow. More success equals higher cash income via TV, fans and higher player value (sales). The only caveat is if it forces up salaries. The owners would obviously prefer us to be successful, as there is a likelihood there will be a correlation with cashflow.

 

[shmmeee]

Ergo, the less successful we are, the less likelihood of income via fans, the less likelihood of having players with value. This affects likely cash flow. More success equals higher cash income via TV, fans and higher player value (sales). The only caveat is if it forces up salaries. The owners would obviously prefer us to be successful, as there is a likelihood there will be a correlation with cashflow.

Being blunt I worry there’s a cliff edge in wages at Championship level that throws the model off. It’s roughly a four fold increase in wages but AFAIK not a four fold increase in revenue.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Being blunt I worry there’s a cliff edge in wages at Championship level that throws the model off. It’s roughly a four fold increase in wages but AFAIK not a four fold increase in revenue.

Think that’s right and why now if anyone has money they don’t mind using for their club they should get together with some rich friends and make an offer