Coronavirus Thread (Off Topic, Politics) (354 Viewers)

[Grendel]

The UK is a nation of tinhat

I'm not being sensitive but you're projecting the actions of thousands onto a country of 60 million.
It's like me trying to claim that this - Thousands of anti-vaccine protesters gather in London is somehow representative of widespread UK opinion, when it's not.

I’m not as this is a specific policy aimed at a section of the community who will see their lifestyles impacted if they are not going to take a vaccine.

Of course the majority aren’t opposed to something that does not impact them.

 

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[Grendel]

It’s a fair point, however isn’t there an argument to say that protesting against a life-saving vaccine is much more indicative of a crank than protesting against a government who have clearly made several mistakes? One saves lives, the other has cost lives

I don’t actually believe in a green card system as it is dividing society with such an approach, I’m not going to use the Holocaust analogies as they are just outlandish but forcing people is a dangerous road to go down

Some countries are opening up to 12 years old to have it. Ban them from school if they don’t?

Your comparison is utterly invalid as the lives of those having the vaccine are not at risk

 

[Sick Boy]

I’m not as this is a specific policy aimed at a section of the community who will see their lifestyles impacted if they are not going to take a vaccine.

Of course the majority aren’t opposed to something that does not impact them.

At the moment the alternative here would be to reimpose restrictions and close businesses for those who have no intention of getting vaccinated and who still think it’s a hoax.

 

[COV]

I don’t actually believe in a green card system as it is dividing society with such an approach, I’m not going to use the Holocaust analogies as they are just outlandish but forcing people is a dangerous road to go down

Some countries are opening up to 12 years old to have it. Ban them from school if they don’t?

Your comparison is utterly invalid as the lives of those having the vaccine are not at risk

What’s the alternative though?

 

[Grendel]

What’s the alternative though?

There isn’t one. We have never forced MMR we have never forced flu vaccines. You encourage take up not force. Democratic societies don’t force or then victimise those concerned about it

 

[skybluetony176]

I don’t actually believe in a green card system as it is dividing society with such an approach, I’m not going to use the Holocaust analogies as they are just outlandish but forcing people is a dangerous road to go down

Some countries are opening up to 12 years old to have it. Ban them from school if they don’t?

Your comparison is utterly invalid as the lives of those having the vaccine are not at risk

Are they forcing people though? It seems people have a choice. Get vaccinated and a card or don’t and don’t. It’s up to individuals. If they exclude themselves from the wider society that is their choice.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

There isn’t one. We have never forced MMR we have never forced flu vaccines. You encourage take up not force. Democratic societies don’t force or then victimise those concerned about it

I’m coming to this opinion and think I’d probably make a point if football goes down this route

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Are they forcing people though? It seems people have a choice. Get vaccinated and a card or don’t and don’t. It’s up to individuals. If they exclude themselves from the wider society that is their choice.

You don’t really believe that’s ok do you? The consequence is having Covid and being seriously ill and dying not being able to eat our or go to football or travel abroad

 

[COV]

There isn’t one. We have never forced MMR we have never forced flu vaccines. You encourage take up not force. Democratic societies don’t force or then victimise those concerned about it

Well maybe that’s how it will pan out.

Maybe it will end up similar to when they wanted to introduce ID cards for everyone

 

[David O'Day]

You don’t really believe that’s ok do you? The consequence is having Covid and being seriously ill and dying not being able to eat our or go to football or travel abroad

It's still a choice though.

 

[clint van damme]

It's the misconception that many against vaccine passports are simply 'anti-vaxx'. It isn't true. Also, I would say a large amount of people with scepticism about this vaccine aren't your usual type screaming about autism from MMR etc.

We don't protest like the French do for example, but look at the numbers of people deleting the app. That's the kind of action the public will take. The proposed vaccine passport is making waves, but as a nation we aren't really a proactive one when it comes to dissent.

I'm very sceptical about vacinne passports (particularly for domestic use) but unfortunately its not something I'd be too vocal about because I don't want to look to be aligning myself with wankers calling for doctors and nurses to be hung and they'll be all over any anti passport protests.

 

[skybluetony176]

You don’t really believe that’s ok do you?

I have the right to be protected against people who are willing to put me at risk as much as people have the choice to not be vaccinated. If I go to the cinema I want people in there with me to have done as much to protect me as I have to protect them.
The people who are refusing the vaccine are selfish, is it unfair on them to exclude them or unfair on everyone else to be put at what is at the end of the day avoidable risk?

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

It's still a choice though.

The choice is to take the vaccine or not. The argument needs to be won on the grounds of being right not manipulation and coercion. I’ve changed my mind now having seen the vitriol. Science and evidence wins not threats. It’s not about slippery slope it’s just wrong to coerce people to take vaccines. I may change my mind again if someone can show me facts about the issues the minority are causing

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

I'm very sceptical about vacinne passports (particularly for domestic use) but unfortunately its not something I'd be too vocal about because I don't want to look to be aligning myself with wankers calling for doctors and nurses to be hung and they'll be all over any anti passport protests.

Again, it's the extremists isn't it.

I'm against vaccine passports but those twats yesterday aren't anything I want to associate myself with.

 

[Grendel]

I’m also very sceptical about school age children having it. The evidence their is beyond dispute - though still minuscule the chance of death from a vaccine is greater than COVID - so will a government be liable for any deaths from it?

 

[Sick Boy]

The choice is to take the vaccine or not. The argument needs to be won on the grounds of being right not manipulation and coercion. I’ve changed my mind now having seen the vitriol. Science and evidence wins not threats. It’s not about slippery slope it’s just wrong to coerce people to take vaccines. I may change my mind again if someone can show me facts about the issues the minority are causing

They’re extremists who can’t be reasoned with.

 

[Grendel]

They’re extremists who can’t be reasoned with.

Younger people who are not taking it aren’t - they just see no personal benefit

 

[Sick Boy]

Younger people who are not taking it aren’t - they just see no personal benefit

I’m on about those at the protests and who spread misinformation. The younger people not taking it in the UK is down the government’s messaging around it.

 

[COV]

Younger people who are not taking it aren’t - they just see no personal benefit

Must be a bit more than that, if you were apathetic & didn’t care one way or the other you’d probably do it just to keep people happy, ie parents, grandparents etc

 

[Grendel]

I’m on about those at the protests and who spread misinformation. The younger people not taking it in the UK is down the government’s messaging around it.

Is it? What about every other country - we haven’t had 80 cities rammed with protesters.

I’d wager as a percentage more people in the U.K. will take the vaccine than any other country in Europe

You’ve just admitted the green card is restricting liberty and forcing people to take it

What an odd thing to say

 

[Grendel]

Must be a bit more than that, if you were apathetic & didn’t care one way or the other you’d probably do it just to keep people happy, ie parents, grandparents etc

We’ve got a very high natural uptake compared to mainland Europe - what are you on about?

 

[skybluetony176]

The choice is to take the vaccine or not. The argument needs to be won on the grounds of being right not manipulation and coercion. I’ve changed my mind now having seen the vitriol. Science and evidence wins not threats. It’s not about slippery slope it’s just wrong to coerce people to take vaccines. I may change my mind again if someone can show me facts about the issues the minority are causing

There is the argument that the people who are refusing the vaccine are driving the need and therefore the decision to have a vaccine passport in the first place.

 

[Sick Boy]

Is it? What about every other country - we haven’t had 80 cities rammed with protesters.

I’d wager as a percentage more people in the U.K. will take the vaccine than any other country in Europe

You’ve just admitted the green card is restricting liberty and forcing people to take it

What an odd thing to say

What have the Italian protestors got to do with young people not taking it in the Uk and the UK government’s messaging?

 

[COV]

Is it? What about every other country - we haven’t had 80 cities rammed with protesters.

I’d wager as a percentage more people in the U.K. will take the vaccine than any other country in Europe

You’ve just admitted the green card is restricting liberty and forcing people to take it

What an odd thing to say

You might want to alter that to any European country of reasonably similar population- France, Italy, Germany etc

The smaller countries by virtue of the number of people will probably be much more voluntarily compliant and will have fewer wanting to protest and go against it

Europe: COVID-19 vaccination rate by country 2023 | Statista

As of January 18, 2023, Portugal had the highest COVID-19 vaccination rate in Europe having administered 272.78 doses per 100 people in the country, while Malta had administered 258.49 doses per 100.

www.statista.com

 

[stupot07]

Going forward, you'd assume it will increase as a %age however.

And FWIW, surely it's in government's interests to include it, as what it then does is make %age of infected people suffering seriously from Covid... lower? Going forward, if people get reinfected but do relatively OK, that's surely a very valuable thing to know, and also to see playing out?

Exactly. And how do we know what the % is of current infections if they don't include them in the figures. And of course we don't know the number who are asymptomatic but may transmit it to someone else. I'd personally rather have the whole story than some government fudge.

Testing capacity has definitely gone down. People at work and members of my family have struggled to get a test in recent weeks and have had to travel to Tamworth to get tested.

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

 

[Grendel]

What have the Italian protestors got to do with young people not taking it in the Uk and the UK government’s messaging?

Nothing as we haven’t tried to force people to have it as Italy are —- yet, but there is a suggestion we will and I oppose it

The government messaging jibe is silly as the natural U.K. uptake has been excellent and far better than most countries.

 

[COV]

We’ve got a very high natural uptake compared to mainland Europe - what are you on about?

You just said that the reason young people are slower to get it/ not getting it is that they see no personal benefit.

I’m saying there must be more to it than just that alone.

 

[Grendel]

You might want to alter that to any European country of reasonably similar population- France, Italy, Germany etc

The smaller countries by virtue of the number of people will probably be much more voluntarily compliant and will have fewer wanting to protest and go against it

Europe: COVID-19 vaccination rate by country 2023 | Statista

As of January 18, 2023, Portugal had the highest COVID-19 vaccination rate in Europe having administered 272.78 doses per 100 people in the country, while Malta had administered 258.49 doses per 100.

www.statista.com

Hungary lol. They ended up using the Russian vaccine didn’t they? You’ll be praising Belarus soon

 

[Grendel]

You just said that the reason young people are slower to get it/ not getting it is that they see no personal benefit.

I’m saying there must be more to it than just that alone.

7 out of 10 have which is fantastic

 

[COV]

Hungary lol. They ended up using the Russian vaccine didn’t they? You’ll be praising Belarus soon

Who is praising anyone? You’re very prickly. Nobody is being praised as far as I can tell, but a much smaller population is more likely to have a higher rate, that’s all. You may well be right compared to bigger nations.

 

[CCFCSteve]

The blame lies less with them and more the terrible messaging in my view

I’m on about those at the protests and who spread misinformation. The younger people not taking it in the UK is down the government’s messaging around it.

Some of the messaging hasn’t helped, in particular the focus by media and certain governments on clotting, however, with a small amount of research on Google ie just checking real world data regarding vaccines preventing serious illness, most people should be able to get comfortable the benefits outweigh the risks. Theyve also been offered a vaccine which risks less severe side affects and again can easily check the risk of these online

By saying it’s due to messaging, it’s suggesting under 30s aren’t very clever. Most know what they are doing, I just think many are making the wrong choice at the moment.

 

[Grendel]

Who is praising anyone? You’re very prickly. Nobody is being praised as far as I can tell, but a much smaller population is more likely to have a higher rate, that’s all. You may well be right compared to bigger nations.

I’m hardly prickly - Hungary used the Sputnik vaccine as the EU procurement policy was so negligent they had no supply - they broke ranks and used an inferior vaccine

I’m sure as Ring of Steel you were very scathing we didn’t go the Eu procurement route didn’t you? I’ll try and find it

 

[COV]

Some of the messaging hasn’t helped, in particular the focus by media and certain governments on clotting, however, with a small amount of research on Google ie just checking real world data regarding vaccines preventing serious illness, most people should be able to get comfortable of the benefits. Theyve also been offered a vaccine which risks less severe side affects.

By saying it’s due to messaging, it’s suggesting under 30s aren’t very clever. Most know what they are doing, I just think many are making the wrong choice at the moment.

Could also be that younger people don’t like the government or politicians in general, can only speak for me but when I was younger I would have had zero interest whatsoever an anything a politician said.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

There isn’t one. We have never forced MMR we have never forced flu vaccines. You encourage take up not force. Democratic societies don’t force or then victimise those concerned about it

But then certain people (not you, tbf) said don't get a train to work if I'm bothered about people not wearing masks on it. Now, surely this is an extension of that? Don't want a vaccine? Don't go to an event.

And isn't it just an extension of this?

In some areas of bolton 1 in 4 have refused the vaccine. Individual lock down of communities who refuse to behave responsibly may be an option

Effectively you're asking people to lockdown, if they're not behaving responsibly...

Now, the problem with civil liberties, is it's not a right to inflict risk on others by behaving irresponsibly. FWIW, I'm not necessarily comfortable with a vaccine passport for a number of reasons - one being that the %age takeup looks pretty good to be fairly effective, another being, as you've mentioned, there are difficult questions wrt ages etc. However... what I hope people who don't want a vaccine, and also don't want to wear a mask on a train don't do, is then want to restrict *my* liberties by telling me not to go on a train to work, because *they* don't want to behave responsibly.

 

[Sick Boy]

Some of the messaging hasn’t helped, in particular the focus by media and certain governments on clotting, however, with a small amount of research on Google ie just checking real world data regarding vaccines preventing serious illness, most people should be able to get comfortable of the benefits. Theyve also been offered a vaccine which risks less severe side affects.

By saying it’s due to messaging, it’s suggesting under 30s aren’t very clever. Most know what they are doing, I just think many are making the wrong choice at the moment.

Of course they’re not stupid, which is why some are going to question why at the moment it’s fine to visit indoor venues without proof of vaccination, yet suddenly from September it won’t be. It’s not hard to see why they’d become disengaged - they’ve also been told the virus poses minimal threat to them, so what’s the point?