Derby (9 Viewers)

[KenilworthSkyBlue]

So you're happy with clubs totally taking the piss and running unlimited losses to chase the dragon

They do anyway.

FFP is horribly outdated and is designed to safeguard the elite clubs' status within European football. Equally, the majority of clubs who have access to competent lawyers/accountants are able to find loopholes within the rules so they need to be reformed on a wide-scale anyway.

 

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[Brighton Sky Blue]

If they are able to support this through other sources yes. Stoke are not going bankrupt - they are bankrolled.

I worked for a company that regularly lost hundreds of millions a year

There are 2 problems with that

1. What if the owner who was previously happy to write off huge sums is either no longer willing or no longer able

2. What about the clubs who don't have access to a benevolent tycoon-they either have to risk bankruptcy themselves to keep up or accept being stuck in the basement leagues

If the Coates' gambling empire collapses Stoke will cease to exist

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

They do anyway.

FFP is horribly outdated and is designed to safeguard the elite clubs' status within European football. Equally, the majority of clubs who have access to competent lawyers/accountants are able to find loopholes within the rules so they need to be reformed on a wide-scale anyway.

If you take off the rules completely you're turning it into a tycoon super league. Which some people might enjoy, I just think it's the least entertaining competition imaginable

 

[Grendel]

There are 2 problems with that

1. What if the owner who was previously happy to write off huge sums is either no longer willing or no longer able

2. What about the clubs who don't have access to a benevolent tycoon-they either have to risk bankruptcy themselves to keep up or accept being stuck in the basement leagues

If the Coates' gambling empire collapses Stoke will cease to exist

There are no problems

1. The club goes bankrupt

2. Thats life in the real world and always has been and always will be

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

There are no problems

1. The club goes bankrupt

2. Thats life in the real world and always has been and always will be

Wow

 

[KenilworthSkyBlue]

If you take off the rules completely you're turning it into a tycoon super league. Which some people might enjoy, I just think it's the least entertaining competition imaginable

It's very much a Schrödinger's cat scenario though isn't it?

You're also talking about an entirely different set of regulations that need to be improved upon, which is the Fit and Proper Owners Test - which again is about as airtight as using a wotsit to bolt a gate.

 

[Grendel]

Wow

Er we will go bankrupt in your scenario and we tick every box on these rules?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Er we will go bankrupt in your scenario and we tick every box on these rules?

Yes and that would be a slight problem wouldn't it?

 

[Grendel]

Yes and that would be a slight problem wouldn't it?

Well it means the rules are pointless and every business in the world the same problem exists - I don't see the point you are trying to make

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

It's very much a Schrödinger's cat scenario though isn't it?

You're also talking about an entirely different set of regulations that need to be improved upon, which is the Fit and Proper Owners Test - which again is about as airtight as using a wotsit to bolt a gate.

In this country most seem happy with the top flight being a battle of various foreign tycoons and the Championship being B-tier tycoons trying to spend their way in. I just find that unappetising.

 

[Grendel]

In this country most seem happy with the top flight being a battle of various foreign tycoons and the Championship being B-tier tycoons trying to spend their way in. I just find that unappetising.

Why? Its always been the same and I know you will drone on about Germany but oddly the same teams always seem to be on top

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Well it means the rules are pointless and every business in the world the same problem exists - I don't see the point you are trying to make

I see it as a problem to encourage conditions that make it more likely for clubs to disappear. They are not run anything close to conventional businesses

 

[Grendel]

I see it as a problem to encourage conditions that make it more likely for clubs to disappear. They are not run anything close to conventional businesses

How many have disappeared in the last 50 years?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Why? Its always been the same and I know you will drone on about Germany but oddly the same teams always seem to be on top

Have we always had people like Abramovich in the game? The 2.Liga is a who's who of former elite German clubs

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

How many have disappeared in the last 50 years?

We are talking a hypothetical where there are no regulations regarding spending and comparing pre-2000s to now is pretty meaningless

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

There are no problems

1. The club goes bankrupt

2. Thats life in the real world and always has been and always will be

So there's no problems with the club going bankrupt on the whim of some uber-rich person getting bored with their plaything?

Except for all the people who work for it that will lose their jobs. The suppliers who will lose contracts and all the people that work for them. The community that will lose an important part of it's social structure and the fans who have a large emotional attachment to it.

I've said it before and I'll say it again:
There are more things than money to consider

 

[oldskyblue58]

So why were Derby given an extension? After all their's was only to resubmit parts of the accounts, not all of them and the original fault was the clubs for massaging the figures. Something like that should have been simple to rectify and the only reason it could be taking longer is cos the actual figures don't tell the story they want. Well, tough shit.

Actually it isnt just resubmitting parts of the accounts. Each year to some degree must be re-audited in full, because changing a few calculations each year leads to an investigation of and a reassessment of whether the club is a going concern for at least 12 months from now. That reassessment is also affected by considerations such as to how Covid affects going concern, the potential for penalties & embargo by EFL that the club will have to meet, whether the financial support or new finance is available going forward. That will take time.

In fact providing new finance or continuing support from banks etc might take quite a bit of time given the struggles there have been trying to sell the club

In addition to change the record at Companies House is a legal process that takes time and is not cheap. Indeed Companies House may have their own investigation in to the conduct of the directors. Not to mention investigation of the auditors by the relevant professional body - are the same auditors being used? - a change might extend time periods simply because of the amount of work that would require, are staff available to do the work?

I can to some degree understand the delays, the pressure will be on the EFL once the financials are corrected and brought up to date. It is very much in the EFL's interest to get this right (legals that follow etc could cost the EFL a lot) so allowing more time isnt really a big deal so long as the EFL are content that things are being dealt with.

This is a high profile case and the auditors & EFL will want to get it right this time

 

[KenilworthSkyBlue]

In this country most seem happy with the top flight being a battle of various foreign tycoons and the Championship being B-tier tycoons trying to spend their way in. I just find that unappetising.

That's not going to change though and frankly I think we're at the point of no return with regards to that.

Too much money has been pumped into the game to change it anytime soon IMO and the potential risks new and tighter regulations could pose to the game far out way the benefits.

If too much pressure is put on owners to tighten the purse strings and reduce spending to the point where they can no longer even attempt at being competitive who's to say that they won't up and leave and find another club in another country?

If the PL for instance no longer has the ability to attract the best players then it sets off a frightening domino effect that will undoubtedly be felt throughout the pyramid - the biggest of which (apart from a reduced pool of willing owners) will be that TV deals will be slashed.

 

[Grendel]

We are talking a hypothetical where there are no regulations regarding spending and comparing pre-2000s to now is pretty meaningless

the answer is very few and compared to other industries?

 

[oldskyblue58]

I think people have the wrong idea of what the EFL is. It runs a closed competition for the clubs for the benefit of the clubs mainly by distributing sponsors money. It has regulations rather than rules set in stone that can be varied by the EFL board if they choose. It is not a financial regulator and has a very small staff dealing club finances. It is not massively wealthy. It runs at a loss and has itself a negative balance sheet. It is not in a strong position to get into legal fights with one or some of its own members

 

[Grendel]

Have we always had people like Abramovich in the game? The 2.Liga is a who's who of former elite German clubs

oddly the same teams at the top here are the same before the tycoons arrived aren’t they?

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Actually it isnt just resubmitting parts of the accounts. Each year to some degree must be re-audited in full, because changing a few calculations each year leads to an investigation of and a reassessment of whether the club is a going concern for at least 12 months from now. That reassessment is also affected by considerations such as to how Covid affects going concern, the potential for penalties & embargo by EFL that the club will have to meet, whether the financial support or new finance is available going forward. That will take time.

In fact providing new finance or continuing support from banks etc might take quite a bit of time given the struggles there have been trying to sell the club

In addition to change the record at Companies House is a legal process that takes time and is not cheap. Indeed Companies House may have their own investigation in to the conduct of the directors. Not to mention investigation of the auditors by the relevant professional body - are the same auditors being used? - a change might extend time periods simply because of the amount of work that would require, are staff available to do the work?

I can to some degree understand the delays, the pressure will be on the EFL once the financials are corrected and brought up to date. It is very much in the EFL's interest to get this right (legals that follow etc could cost the EFL a lot) so allowing more time isnt really a big deal so long as the EFL are content that things are being dealt with.

This is a high profile case and the auditors & EFL will want to get it right this time

Fair enough but the overall thing to take from it is:

Derby tried to pull the wool over people's eyes and are now being given more time.

Other clubs managed to do it by the deadline and haven't been asked to resubmit. So why should Derby be allowed leeway? Rules are that you submit accurate accounts by a certain date. They have failed to provide accurate accounts by that date and so have not complied with the rules.

The fault is with Derby. If they don't want to be sanctioned or punished don't try and bend the rules beyond breaking point in the first place.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

oddly the same teams at the top here are the same before the tycoons arrived aren’t they?

Man City and Chelsea weren't top teams nor were Leicester in regular European contention

 

[Grendel]

Fair enough but the overall thing to take from it is:

Derby tried to pull the wool over people's eyes and are now being given more time.

Other clubs managed to do it by the deadline and haven't been asked to resubmit. So why should Derby be allowed leeway? Rules are that you submit accurate accounts by a certain date. They have failed to provide accurate accounts by that date and so have not complied with the rules.

The fault is with Derby. If they don't want to be sanctioned or punished don't try and bend the rules beyond breaking point in the first place.

The punishment is an embargo as we experienced even under Boothroyd - they are in embargo

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

That's not going to change though and frankly I think we're at the point of no return with regards to that.

Too much money has been pumped into the game to change it anytime soon IMO and the potential risks new and tighter regulations could pose to the game far out way the benefits.

If too much pressure is put on owners to tighten the purse strings and reduce spending to the point where they can no longer even attempt at being competitive who's to say that they won't up and leave and find another club in another country?

If the PL for instance no longer has the ability to attract the best players then it sets off a frightening domino effect that will undoubtedly be felt throughout the pyramid - the biggest of which (apart from a reduced pool of willing owners) will be that TV deals will be slashed.

I agree with what you're saying I just find things as they stand very unpalateable but I accept I'm in the minority on it

 

[skybluesam66]

oddly the same teams at the top here are the same before the tycoons arrived aren’t they?

Chelsea/ Man City? for many years they were below us in the pecking order

 

[Grendel]

Man City and Chelsea weren't top teams nor were Leicester in regular European contention

Man City we’re a huge team in the 70’s - Bell, Sumerbee, Lee and Chelsea were a big glamour team then as well - Osgood, bonetti, Hudson

what are you on about?

 

[skybluesam66]

Man City we’re a huge team in the 70’s - Bell, Sumerbee, Lee and Chelsea were a big glamour team then as well - Osgood, bonetti, Hudson

what are you on about?

But not in the 80s

 

[KenilworthSkyBlue]

I agree with what you're saying I just find things as they stand very unpalateable but I accept I'm in the minority on it

They are, and I agree with you on that but there's very little that can be done at present.

The best that can happen is governing bodies work more closely with clubs in a more positive fashion, especially in the financial reporting aspect which is horribly outdated even in PL clubs -whereby they can advise and collaborate rather than sanction and punish. Their strategy/tactics so far doesn't/hasn't worked, and if anything made governing bodies such as UEFA, the EFL and NL look like the bad guys.

 

[oldskyblue58]

Fair enough but the overall thing to take from it is:

Derby tried to pull the wool over people's eyes and are now being given more time.
agree on the first but a few more weeks isnt going to make any difference to any outcome

Other clubs managed to do it by the deadline and haven't been asked to resubmit. So why should Derby be allowed leeway? Rules are that you submit accurate accounts by a certain date. They have failed to provide accurate accounts by that date and so have not complied with the rules.

you are making the assumption that the financials of every other club are compliant, i have my doubts. They just havent been investigated yet, or to put another way not been caught yet. Derby clearly broke the rules but as outlined above it isnt just the EFL that will be looking in to their affairs and the affairs of the directors. I forgot to include HMRC

The fault is with Derby. If they don't want to be sanctioned or punished don't try and bend the rules beyond breaking point in the first place. Agreed but they have and it now needs to be seen to be dealt with properly.

replies are in italics

 

[skybluesam66]

Chelsea 73-84 best position 16th in top flight often in div 2
Man City 78-90 once in top half of top flight often in div 2

 

[richnrg]

Chelsea 73-84 best position 16th in top flight often in div 2
Man City 78-90 once in top half of top flight often in div 2

Dogger 4 to 6 , becoming slight or moderate, then rough , occasionally poor at first

 

[NortonSkyBlue]

Man City and Chelsea weren't top teams nor were Leicester in regular European contention

City and Chelsea were top teams in the mid to late sixties and early seventies. Both clubs overspent and went down the pyramid.
Leicester were 4 times FA cup finalists before winning it this year, won the league cup a few times and have had good history before falling on hard times.
I would suggest that City and Chelsea were ripe for what has happened to them and others like Villa, Everton, Newcastle and Leeds must have been crying in their boardrooms. Leicester landed on their feet no doubt but you have to say that they have managed their spend to expenditure very well.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Man City we’re a huge team in the 70’s - Bell, Sumerbee, Lee and Chelsea were a big glamour team then as well - Osgood, bonetti, Hudson

what are you on about?

Who then fell away again to relative obscurity. They only returned to prominence once they got the big bucks backing them and even so they're been far more successful under their ownership than they ever have been in their history, even when they were big clubs in the past.

 

[skybluegod]

Man City we’re a huge team in the 70’s - Bell, Sumerbee, Lee and Chelsea were a big glamour team then as well - Osgood, bonetti, Hudson

what are you on about?

Didn't Man City only finish in the top 6 three times in the 70's? Does having a a few good players during that time make you a huge team? They were about the equivalent of Everton in today's terms?

Chelsea in the 60's were pretty good consistently. If you are going that far back however then isn't your point proven wrong by the fact the likes of Forest and Leeds aren't on that level? Given they had during that period they placed far better.