Bonuses - another perspective (3 Viewers)

singers_pore

Well-Known Member
I have been quite surprised by the reactions of some fans to the bonus issue. So here are my thoughts.

1. The "spin" from Fisher is that the previous bonus system (1,000 for each match appearance, 1,000 for each win) rewarded failure. I disagree. The bonus for match appearance is not a bonus for "turning up to work" as some people on here and GMK have said. Rather the bonus is for being good enough to be picked for the first team. Also, an appearance bonus means that the players have to do what the manager says or they will be out the team and lose their bonus. Therefore, a match appearance bonus seems to be important for incentivizing the players and for getting them to obey the manager. At least, that's what Ranson (ex-player) thought which is why he introduced that particular bonus scheme. Of course, Fisher who has never played the game knows better.

2. Consider Keogh versus Eastwood. Do fans really think that Keogh does not deserve more than Eastwood. After all, Eastwood seemingly couldn't be arsed to get himself into the first team whereas Keogh was essentially an ever present. If you drop the appearance bonuses essentially you are saying that a player who plays hardly any first team games (e.g., Eastwood) should be paid nearly the same as a player who puts in the effort every week (e.g., Keogh).

3. Fisher's comments about "rewarding failure" are very misleading as players were being paid bonuses for each win. The fact that they won so few games last year suggests that the squad simply wasn't good enough - it does not suggest that there was a problem with the reward system.

4. Discussions about players' wages are invariably dominated by low-income supporters who are essentially jealous of those who are able to earn good money. From my perspective, it's crazy to think that our players are being paid too much given how short their careers are. There are loads of people in the world of business earning 100,000, 250,000 p.a. or more. Those accountants and bankers don't accept lower salaries than they are promised in their contracts so why should footballers. I realize it is fashionable for fans to berate footballers as being greedy and out of touch. I think the truth is that many fans are out of touch and suffer from envy due to their own low incomes.

5. Finally, it seems from Fisher's comments that players' bonuses this year are based on whether or not they get promotion. That's fine if we are in the top 8 or so around Xmas. How about if we are in the bottom 8? Without win bonuses and appearance bonuses, there will be less incentive to play hard and keep the club out of L2.

Ok, those are my thoughts. I am sure many people will disagree but let's not make it personal, eh.
 

smileycov

Facebook User
I do disagree; point 1 we paid out a million and got relegated. So yes we did reward failure. Point 2 you change the bonus as he said not drop it. so if fat freddie does not want to play he does not share the bonus that say keogh gets for being part of a winning team. Point 3 see point 1 _ he wants players to be rewarded for success, that is whuy it is being changed. happy with that. point 4 very patronising, so unless you earn 100k + you are jealous if you have an opinion? we got relegated, they have asked the players to adjust contracts and bonuses. Business sense! if we got promoted to premier, would the same players not ask for a new contract! what is the difference? point 5 he is rewarding success, i am sure that is not just on promotion...but bigger success achieves bigger rewards!
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
You put the argument across well but i still believe bonus should be a reward for success - individually or collectively.

The Keogh vs Eastwood example is an extreme and should be reflected in future negotiations of basic salary and presumably even Eastwood had a bonus for the sub appearance at Derby. It is also only a motivation to those who are competing for places. For Murphy it's extra salary period. For players who believe they are not picked as the manager does not rate them (wood, Mcpake) possibly this acts as a disincentive.

Ranson may have been an ex player but that does not make him a good businessman and certainly not a sports physiologist. The main issue anyway is the club cannot afford it. To pay £1 million in salary above basic pay as a percentage of turnover is huge and for a business such as ours cannot continue.

Your comment on jealousy is not appropriate to me and I don't think is relevant anyway. We have a bonus based on many collective targers set at the beginning of the year and the personal benefit can be as high as £15,000 and as low as £1,000. You can directly influence some of it some of this is based on corporate achievement. In the years we knew nothing was going to be earned did we work any less? No not at all and any players who do should be moved on

I think it is refreshing that they are being treated like employees in a real business rather than the rich gravy train when all they have delivered has been lukewarm Bisto.
 

SuttonSkyBlue

New Member
I have no issue with players being predominantly motivated by money (i.e. - the prospect of collecting a win bonus above winning 3 points for the team) as long as this encourages them to produce the results for the club on the pitch. I'm sorry but I do not understand how a failing club (or indeed any club) can justify issuing bonses to players simply on them making the team - playiong football should be what we are paying them for in the first place - not simply turning up for training!!

Bonuses or no bonuses, I agree that the squad last season wasnt good enough. This is pretty clear!! But surely paying £1m in bonuses for a team that was eventually relegated IS rewarding failure!

Re point 5 - how about a bit of professional pride!!
 

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
I have been quite surprised by the reactions of some fans to the bonus issue. So here are my thoughts.

1. The "spin" from Fisher is that the previous bonus system (1,000 for each match appearance, 1,000 for each win) rewarded failure. I disagree. The bonus for match appearance is not a bonus for "turning up to work" as some people on here and GMK have said. Rather the bonus is for being good enough to be picked for the first team. Also, an appearance bonus means that the players have to do what the manager says or they will be out the team and lose their bonus. Therefore, a match appearance bonus seems to be important for incentivizing the players and for getting them to obey the manager. At least, that's what Ranson (ex-player) thought which is why he introduced that particular bonus scheme. Of course, Fisher who has never played the game knows better.


2. Consider Keogh versus Eastwood. Do fans really think that Keogh does not deserve more than Eastwood. After all, Eastwood seemingly couldn't be arsed to get himself into the first team whereas Keogh was essentially an ever present. If you drop the appearance bonuses essentially you are saying that a player who plays hardly any first team games (e.g., Eastwood) should be paid nearly the same as a player who puts in the effort every week (e.g., Keogh).

3. Fisher's comments about "rewarding failure" are very misleading as players were being paid bonuses for each win. The fact that they won so few games last year suggests that the squad simply wasn't good enough - it does not suggest that there was a problem with the reward system.

4. Discussions about players' wages are invariably dominated by low-income supporters who are essentially jealous of those who are able to earn good money. From my perspective, it's crazy to think that our players are being paid too much given how short their careers are. There are loads of people in the world of business earning 100,000, 250,000 p.a. or more. Those accountants and bankers don't accept lower salaries than they are promised in their contracts so why should footballers. I realize it is fashionable for fans to berate footballers as being greedy and out of touch. I think the truth is that many fans are out of touch and suffer from envy due to their own low incomes.

5. Finally, it seems from Fisher's comments that players' bonuses this year are based on whether or not they get promotion. That's fine if we are in the top 8 or so around Xmas. How about if we are in the bottom 8? Without win bonuses and appearance bonuses, there will be less incentive to play hard and keep the club out of L2.

Ok, those are my thoughts. I am sure many people will disagree but let's not make it personal, eh.

Yes - but in the context of a tiny squad that often contained players who didn't have professional contracts, the appearance bonus was meaningless and there was no 'achievement' involved.

Point 5 is laughable, if players were not performing due to not receiving an appearance bonus, surely that puts the club / SISU even more firmly in the right?
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
Yes - but in the context of a tiny squad that often contained players who didn't have professional contracts, the appearance bonus was meaningless and there was no 'achievement' involved.

Point 5 is laughable, if players were not performing due to not receiving an appearance bonus, surely that puts the club / SISU even more firmly in the right?

Yes I think he shot himself in the foot with that one. People who are only in it for the bonus are the types you don't want anyway.
 

Mary_Mungo_Midge

Well-Known Member
Yes I think he shot himself in the foot with that one. People who are only in it for the bonus are the types you don't want anyway.

Not that any controversy on that issue depletes the value of the other points. Specifically at that point, it depends upon one's mindset with regards the donkey/stick/carrot principle. The author's view simply being different to many's; but still with some virtue I think.

The easy think is to deride the players due to their comparatively high earnings, and last year's relegation. Move those emotive points aside, and the debate is a more interesting one
 

skyblueman

New Member
For me it just needs to be simple and straight forward - If you play and we win you get a bonus - incentive to get in the team and to win - simple- doesn't need to be any more than that

Has to be on a match by match basis and not definitely not an all or nothing bonus based on whether we get promoted or not
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
For me it just needs to be simple and straight forward - If you play and we win you get a bonus - incentive to get in the team and to win - simple- doesn't need to be any more than that

Has to be on a match by match basis and not definitely not an all or nothing bonus based on whether we get promoted or not

No disagree should be a bonus on year end achievement just like most corporate entities and if collectively you do not get it you do not earn it.
 

skyblueman

New Member
No disagree should be a bonus on year end achievement just like most corporate entities and if collectively you do not get it you do not earn it.

Collective bonuses never really work in my experience as there are too many variables that are out of the individuals control - doing on a per game basis should achieve the end result and people feel able to make a difference. Ok sure there can be a big one-off bonus on top at the end of the season for getting promotion but it shouldn't be the only one available.
 

kg82

Well-Known Member
No disagree should be a bonus on year end achievement just like most corporate entities and if collectively you do not get it you do not earn it.

Corporate entities that have weekly targets or monthly targets quite often pay bonuses accordingly.
 

Astute

Well-Known Member
We get a yearly bonus where I work, payable in December. It works for some people, but others don't give a sh!te and rely on others to get the full amount. Needless to say our bonus is normally 1k or more from the maximum
 

skyblueman

New Member
We get a yearly bonus where I work, payable in December. It works for some people, but others don't give a sh!te and rely on others to get the full amount. Needless to say our bonus is normally 1k or more from the maximum

If the win bonus is a significant part of the total earnings then it's a good thing - if it's only a small amount then it doesn't really hurt if you don't get it - in which case you might as well not have it
 

Colonel Mustard

New Member
1. The "spin" from Fisher is that the previous bonus system (1,000 for each match appearance, 1,000 for each win) rewarded failure. I disagree. The bonus for match appearance is not a bonus for "turning up to work" as some people on here and GMK have said. Rather the bonus is for being good enough to be picked for the first team. Also, an appearance bonus means that the players have to do what the manager says or they will be out the team and lose their bonus. Therefore, a match appearance bonus seems to be important for incentivizing the players and for getting them to obey the manager.

Let's say the appearance bonus was rolled into the win bonus - £2k for a win. Surely it would end up having the same impact - players wanting to get in the first team, training hard and being responsive to do so, giving more effort.
 

singers_pore

Well-Known Member
I agree with Grendel that an appearance bonus should be used for players who are competing for places in the first team, i.e., players who are on the fringes of the squad (e.g., Christie). For a first-team goalkeeper an appearance bonus makes little sense as a goalkeeper rarely loses his place except for injury. In short, incentive contracts need to be tailor-made for individual players.

Now consider Fisher's comment that last season we paid "nearly 1m in bonuses for failure". An alternative way of putting it is that we also paid out around 6-8m in basic salary and got failure? So what was at fault? Do we blame the bonuses of 1m or the basic salary of 6-8m?

The substantive questions that Fisher needs to address are as follows:

1. How much of the total salary should be made up of bonus and how much should be basic salary? Personally I think that the bonus component should be high and the basic should be low. I guess Ranson thought the same which is why the bonus component was quite high.

2. For the bonus component, how should it be split between bonuses for appearances, wins, end of season position, etc.?

My point is that the issues involved are much more complicated that Fisher's spin. Instead of focussing on bonuses, Fisher could just have easily said that "Last season we paid out 6-8m in basic salary, so this season we are going to provide stronger incentives by increasing the bonus component and reducing the basic salary component."

Instead of that Fisher appears to be attacking the bonus component, which is what provides the incentives. He's doing that to court popularity with the fans even if it makes the players look bad (Gee mom, I got a bonus for being relegated!). Well I ain't falling for that load of old pony.
 

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
Not that any controversy on that issue depletes the value of the other points. Specifically at that point, it depends upon one's mindset with regards the donkey/stick/carrot principle. The author's view simply being different to many's; but still with some virtue I think.

The easy think is to deride the players due to their comparatively high earnings, and last year's relegation. Move those emotive points aside, and the debate is a more interesting one

Most arguments put forward have been more objective - i.e. the club is changing the pay structure for affordability reasons - I don't think this can be realistically argued, the way it has been done, however, might be.
 

smileycov

Facebook User
No, he is doing it so the players earn the bonus they get this time. We got relegated and people earnt good bonus. He is structuring it so that if we are succesfull then they will earn decent bonus, but if they fail they will not.We can not afford to pay for failure. My bonus is performance related, it worlks.
 

ashbyjan

Well-Known Member
I must tip my hat to Fisher - he really has spin down to a fine art - in a matter of a few days he has managed to make the council and ACL the bad guys in the non payment of rent issue and now with the non payment of bonuses etc its the players who are the bad guys. Poor little SISU - you have to feel sorry for them because non of this was their doing was it.
 

smileycov

Facebook User
I must tip my hat to Fisher - he really has spin down to a fine art - in a matter of a few days he has managed to make the council and ACL the bad guys in the non payment of rent issue and now with the non payment of bonuses etc its the players who are the bad guys. Poor little SISU - you have to feel sorry for them because non of this was their doing was it.

No one said it was NON Payment, they have just structured this seasons bonus to reward success as opposed to failure....nothing wrong with that. If they do not want to succeed they can sod off!
 

skyblueinBaku

Well-Known Member
Most arguments put forward have been more objective - i.e. the club is changing the pay structure for affordability reasons - I don't think this can be realistically argued, the way it has been done, however, might be.

Not only the way it has been done, fernando, but the timing. Why was all this left until the eve of the new season? It smacks of gross incompetence - again.
 

kg82

Well-Known Member
I don't think the players are the bad guys in this. Stupidity by SISU for the bonus structure in the first place but it's right to re-structure it. Fair play to the players for accepting it, it's a lot of money.
 

singers_pore

Well-Known Member
No one said it was NON Payment, they have just structured this seasons bonus to reward success as opposed to failure....nothing wrong with that. If they do not want to succeed they can sod off!

Actually it's not just about this season's bonus. In the CT article, Fisher has also said that part of the players' payments from last year have been "deferred". So the club are now in debt to the players (deferral of salary) as well as ACL (non-payment of Escrow/rent).

At some point, the liabilities to external parties will become sufficiently large that SISU will decide it is better off putting the company into administration or liquidation. I think that we could be approaching the end game quite soon.
 

smileycov

Facebook User
Actually it's not just about this season's bonus. In the CT article, Fisher has also said that part of the players' payments from last year have been "deferred". So the club are now in debt to the players (deferral of salary) as well as ACL (non-payment of Escrow/rent).

At some point, the liabilities to external parties will become sufficiently large that SISU will decide it is better off putting the company into administration or liquidation. I think that we could be approaching the end game quite soon.

Not sure i have read that! He also said that if the players MAINTAIN A PROMOTION PUSH, they will be rewarded, so as long as we are going the right way the lads can still earn. Coupled with financial rewards for actual promotion That is surely good.
 

SBS

Active Member
This is just another episode in a long running series of 'How not to run a Professional Football Club'. Ultimately we are owned by a hedge fund, it was obvious from the day they took over that they would look to cut costs as much as possible. I think they've now ran out of ways and have turned their attentions to the contracts to both players and the ACL. People can argue that the players don't deserve them etc, but look at the last two seasons, everything that has gone wrong has been SISU against another party. Cut all the emotions involved with supporting a football club out of it. They are cutting costs, they don't care who is affected, they're doing it for themselves and I honestly think the first 10 games of this season will decide our fate. I cannot express how much I fcuking hate how they have treated this club and city over the last two years.
 

skyblueinBaku

Well-Known Member
To be fair, collective bargaining agreements usually go to the wire.

Maybe so, Colonel, but it seems to me that this change was dumped on the players quite recently (just before the Wrexham game, I think). If restructuring the bonus scheme was necessary, surely management knew this long ago. They should have started 'negotiations' as soon as last season ended.
 

Nonleagueherewecome

Well-Known Member
This is just another episode in a long running series of 'How not to run a Professional Football Club'. Ultimately we are owned by a hedge fund, it was obvious from the day they took over that they would look to cut costs as much as possible. I think they've now ran out of ways and have turned their attentions to the contracts to both players and the ACL. People can argue that the players don't deserve them etc, but look at the last two seasons, everything that has gone wrong has been SISU against another party. Cut all the emotions involved with supporting a football club out of it. They are cutting costs, they don't care who is affected, they're doing it for themselves and I honestly think the first 10 games of this season will decide our fate. I cannot express how much I fcuking hate how they have treated this club and city over the last two years.

Captured perfectly what I'm thinking right now. I'm more sick of them than ever after the last two days, and I'm sure ACL and the players must feel similarly.
 

Colonel Mustard

New Member
Maybe so, Colonel, but it seems to me that this change was dumped on the players quite recently (just before the Wrexham game, I think). If restructuring the bonus scheme was necessary, surely management knew this long ago. They should have started 'negotiations' as soon as last season ended.

I must say that I struggle to sympathise. The contracts of the players are not being torn up - they are being honoured. If a player refuses to renegotiate their contract, then they will still be paid their appearance bonus if they are selected; if they are frozen out, then the club is well within its rights to do that. The players are not without options, and they will continue to be paid the base salary they negotiated when they joined the club.
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
1. All players should be expected to be good enough for the first team. I can understand an academy player getting a bonus, as first team football is above expectations for them, but senior players are paid to play, not to train. I also enables players in positions with little or no cover (i.e. ALL positions last season) to coast on their appearance bonuses as there was no-one else to play.

Finding 11 players isn't hard, finding 11 who can win games is. A bonus is given for performance above expectations, getting picked isn't above expectations.

2. No I'm saying that we should have methods for fining and terminating the contract of someone who refuses to carry out their contractual obligations. If Keogh plays well enough to help the team win by keeping clean sheets or setting up goals then he deserves a bonus.

3. If we paid out over a million quid in bonuses to a team that was, by definition, our worst team in over 40 years, then something is most definitely wrong with our bonus structure. That's roughly 50k each for a squad of 20, that's double my yearly income for being awful at your job!

4. It's not envy, it's annoyance at an unsustainable system created and fed by excessive greed, of which you yourself seem to have fallen victim to. Much like those "in business" as you put it, taking such huge wages has knock on effects, the current state of our club and the economy as a whole can be put down to the excessive rewards of the players and chief executives respectively. No-one can possible add so much value or do so much work that they are "worth" millions a year, such income only comes from stiffing others down the line, wether it be fans paying too much for both tickets and Sky coverage or workers not being paid a living wage, people only get that rich through exploitation.

5. Do you honestly expect there aren't similar relegation clauses as the ones that kicked in this year? Do you also think we're more likely to be top 8 or bottom 8? Also nothing precludes us from offering a one off bonus on avoidance of relegation if that's what it comes to, but putting it in from the start about promotion signals clearly that that is our expectation, as it should be when you look at our squad and the squads of those around us.
 

skyblueman

New Member
I have to say I honestly wasn't anti-SISU nor pro-SISU for that matter - originally I thought they were just a bit daft buying into someone else's ideas of making a fast buck on a quick Prem return and a grab for the stadium - yes they screwed it up and this is the result- the most recent events with rent fiasco and the treatment of existing contracts has really turned me off from them though

I can now see no rosy future for the club under their ownership - they are chasing their loses - it is obvious and they are running out of options - make no mistake they will not give the club a second thought if this continues to run badly for them - they have put their marker down now and obviously are not going to fund this any longer - their entire hopes are now resting on an unproven collection of 'free' players who HAVE to succeed this year in promotion or face oblivion in the lower leagues
 

oldskyblue58

CCFC Finance Director
you know what really staggers me .......... the fact that it has taken so damn long for the owners and directors of CCFC to figure out that wages and bonuses at the club are a major problem (if not the major problem) ....... and even longer to take any action on it. :facepalm:
 

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
I must tip my hat to Fisher - he really has spin down to a fine art - in a matter of a few days he has managed to make the council and ACL the bad guys in the non payment of rent issue and now with the non payment of bonuses etc its the players who are the bad guys. Poor little SISU - you have to feel sorry for them because non of this was their doing was it.

They haven't withheld anything owed to players. If you're going to accused people of spin at least get the detail right.
 

oldskyblue58

CCFC Finance Director
I guess some key questions

1) what are each of the players on for a basic salary?
2) what was the salary bill last year?
3) what bonus is budgeted for this year..... quite telling really if it is less than last year then we are aiming to hold our own .... if it is around £1m we are aiming for promotion (they keep saying the target is promotion)?
4) what triggers a bonus ?
5) is this set up for this division or any division?
6) who else are we paying wages/fees to and did they take a cut too ?
7) will we meet the FFP rules this season or not (promotion is so important in retaining players because next year the limit is 55% not 65%)
8) is there still room in the budget to bring more players in without others departing
9) if the team is successful and turnover above budget will they use the extra to drive down losses or utilise it by more squad tinkering?
10) why has it taken so long to even start to get to grips with this ?
 
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