Solar panels (6 Viewers)

[Macca]

Anybody got these? Worth doing?

 

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[Marty]

I was actually going to post this thread myself. After doing a fair bit of research it seems it's only worth while if you go the whole hog, batteries, electric vehicle etc. I need a new roof and was looking at having an 'in roof' system fitted.

Have seen a few videos recommending having an air source heat pump fitted at the exhaust side of the batteries as it massively increases efficiency on those too as you effectively heat the house as a by product of having the batteries.

 

[wingy]

I was actually going to post this thread myself. After doing a fair bit of research it seems it's only worth while if you go the whole hog, batteries, electric vehicle etc. I need a new roof and was looking at having an 'in roof' system fitted.

Have seen a few videos recommending having an air source heat pump fitted at the exhaust side of the batteries as it massively increases efficiency on those too as you effectively heat the house as a by product of having the batteries.

Get it done soon Marty, price's are going through the roof .

 

[skybluetony176]

I think in a domestic setting your only chance is if you use what you generate since the government scrapped all the lead in tariffs. So unless you’re at home all day financially it probably isn’t worth it.

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

Surely it's not worth buying solar panels unless you're staying put for at least 20 years

. Without buying them up front you effectively have a charge on your property from the solar panels company which leads to problems when you sell.

Getting solar panels where possible should surely be a top priority and yet for most people it's not cost effective .

Does any one know how much co2 it costs to make a bog standard solar panel and how long it takes to offset that particular cost ?

 

[Grendel]

Surely it's not worth buying solar panels unless you're staying put for at least 20 years

. Without buying them up front you effectively have a charge on your property from the solar panels company which leads to problems when you sell.

Getting solar panels where possible should surely be a top priority and yet for most people it's not cost effective .

Does any one know how much co2 it costs to make a bog standard solar panel and how long it takes to offset that particular cost ?

Absolutely spot on avoid at all costs

 

[Macca]

Thanks chaps I’ll pass on this I think

 

[fernandopartridge]

Absolutely spot on avoid at all costs

The house I bought had some already (and a battery pack) which had been purchased out right. I can take on the feed in tariff that was already established but British Gas make it very difficult to do so I've not done it yet, two years of generation I'll be owed.

 

[shmmeee]

Surely it's not worth buying solar panels unless you're staying put for at least 20 years

. Without buying them up front you effectively have a charge on your property from the solar panels company which leads to problems when you sell.

Getting solar panels where possible should surely be a top priority and yet for most people it's not cost effective .

Does any one know how much co2 it costs to make a bog standard solar panel and how long it takes to offset that particular cost ?

Carbon payback is about a year and a half:https://www.renewableenergyhub.co.uk/main/solar-panels/solar-panels-carbon-analysis/

The problem as you state is the finance model, most people aren’t willing to commit for the 12-20 year financial payback. Which is why government should step in.

 

[dutchman]

Battery packs make more financial sense, if you can recharge at off-peak rate. Payback period is 4-5 years.

Don't try making your own though, I've seen some really dangerous setups on YouTube from people who should know better.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Carbon payback is about a year and a half:https://www.renewableenergyhub.co.uk/main/solar-panels/solar-panels-carbon-analysis/

The problem as you state is the finance model, most people aren’t willing to commit for the 12-20 year financial payback. Which is why government should step in.

I assume the batteries are made from lithium, so the environmental costs of mining that also need to considered.

 

[shmmeee]

I assume the batteries are made from lithium, so the environmental costs of mining that also need to considered.

This has some good discussion of that (though their use of 400 cycle lifetime is ridiculously conservative IMO), still miles below coal fired energy:Estimating The Carbon Footprint Of Utility-Scale Battery Storage

I’ll be honest I don’t have much time for this line of reasoning. We saw it with electric vehicles too and it generally doesn’t stack up. Renewables are always better for CO2 emissions than non-renewables and arguments to the contrary always seem to rest on worst case scenarios.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

This has some good discussion of that (though their use of 400 cycle lifetime is ridiculously conservative IMO), still miles below coal fired energy:Estimating The Carbon Footprint Of Utility-Scale Battery Storage

I’ll be honest I don’t have much time for this line of reasoning. We saw it with electric vehicles too and it generally doesn’t stack up. Renewables are always better for CO2 emissions than non-renewables and arguments to the contrary always seem to rest on worst case scenarios.

I don't just mean the carbon generated in extracting and processing the lithium, I mean the overall ecological and environmental effects from the process.

 

[shmmeee]

I don't just mean the carbon generated in extracting and processing the lithium, I mean the overall ecological and environmental effects from the process.

One crisis at a time

I think battery tech has a lot of room for improvement in that area as well.

 

[Kneeza]

This has some good discussion of that (though their use of 400 cycle lifetime is ridiculously conservative IMO), still miles below coal fired energy:Estimating The Carbon Footprint Of Utility-Scale Battery Storage

I’ll be honest I don’t have much time for this line of reasoning. We saw it with electric vehicles too and it generally doesn’t stack up. Renewables are always better for CO2 emissions than non-renewables and arguments to the contrary always seem to rest on worst case scenarios.

The cycle lifetime is generally based on a near full discharge and a near full charge. 400 is probably about right for lithium ion chemistry, but lithium iron phosphate will usually do around 2000 or more cycles.
I have two of the latter in the power packs I carry in my motorhome, so they'll probably outlive me!
I'm interested to see how the development of sodium ion batteries progresses. Rather pricy right now, and slightly lower density than lithium types, but very safe, certainly compared with lithium ion (which have a bit of a rep for self-combustion along with their lack of durability).

 

[shmmeee]

The cycle lifetime is generally based on a near full discharge and a near full charge. 400 is probably about right for lithium ion chemistry, but lithium iron phosphate will usually do around 2000 or more cycles.
I have two of the latter in the power packs I carry in my motorhome, so they'll probably outlive me!
I'm interested to see how the development of sodium ion batteries progresses. Rather pricy right now, and slightly lower density than lithium types, but very safe, certainly compared with lithium ion (which have a bit of a rep for self-combustion along with their lack of durability).

Not up on battery tech but it feels like an area with a lot of scope for improvement. There seems to be research breakthroughs every five minutes but they never seem to get to scale.

 

[Kneeza]

I'm certainly no expert, but you can't help but get a general overview if you do a bit of off-gridding!

 

[skybluetony176]

The cycle lifetime is generally based on a near full discharge and a near full charge. 400 is probably about right for lithium ion chemistry, but lithium iron phosphate will usually do around 2000 or more cycles.
I have two of the latter in the power packs I carry in my motorhome, so they'll probably outlive me!
I'm interested to see how the development of sodium ion batteries progresses. Rather pricy right now, and slightly lower density than lithium types, but very safe, certainly compared with lithium ion (which have a bit of a rep for self-combustion along with their lack of durability).

It’s all to do with the depth of discharge. As you say if you take 100% out of the battery you won’t get as many cycles as you would if you only take 50%. Like you point out there’s load of different battery technologies and all have different cycle life’s.

 

[skybluetony176]

Not up on battery tech but it feels like an area with a lot of scope for improvement. There seems to be research breakthroughs every five minutes but they never seem to get to scale.

Graphene is going to be a game changer once large scale production is cracked. IIRC UOW has done loads of work on different battery chemicals and using graphene as plate material and made some great advances, albeit on small scale production.

 

[shmmeee]

Graphene is going to be a game changer once large scale production is cracked. IIRC UOW has done loads of work on different battery chemicals and using graphene as plate material and made some great advances, albeit on small scale production.

Graphene generally is feeling a lot like fusion power in terms of lots of promise and little delivery.

 

[skybluetony176]

Graphene generally is feeling a lot like fusion power in terms of lots of promise and little delivery.

I think on graphene it’s cracking mass production to make it viable. There’s been a massive breakthrough on fusion just this year, they can now do fusion without taking as much power as it generates, still a way to go but this has been a giant leap that has been promised since the birth of nuclear energy.

 

[Kneeza]

It’s all to do with the depth of discharge. As you say if you take 100% out of the battery you won’t get as many cycles as you would if you only take 50%. Like you point out there’s load of different battery technologies and all have different cycle life’s.

Very true, although LiFePo4 batteries can go down to >20% completely without detriment. In our case (leisure vehicle) replacing 200ah of flooded/gel/AGM battery can be achieved with a 100ah LiFePo4 one. Yes, quite a bit more expensive at initial outlay but with its far superior cycle performance, the Li one works out much cheaper in the long run, assuming you keep it for the long run of course.
Only really relevant to vehicles, it's also a very significant reduction in size (although this is no bad thing for a static installation) and more importantly for me, much, much lighter. I can also charge it harder/quicker than the lead acid ones, although my two solar panels only amount to about 280w on a good sunny day, so irrelevant there, but the smart alternator on the newer Ducato vans (like ours) can really be made to pump the power to it, which is useful on dull days!

 

[skybluetony176]

Very true, although LiFePo4 batteries can go down to >20% completely without detriment. In our case (leisure vehicle) replacing 200ah of flooded/gel/AGM battery can be achieved with a 100ah LiFePo4 one. Yes, quite a bit more expensive at initial outlay but with its far superior cycle performance, the Li one works out much cheaper in the long run, assuming you keep it for the long run of course.
Only really relevant to vehicles, it's also a very significant reduction in size (although this is no bad thing for a static installation) and more importantly for me, much, much lighter. I can also charge it harder/quicker than the lead acid ones, although my two solar panels only amount to about 280w on a good sunny day, so irrelevant there, but the smart alternator on the newer Ducato vans (like ours) can really be made to pump the power to it, which is useful on dull days!

Take it you mainly do off grid?

 

[Kneeza]

Take it you mainly do off grid?

A mix mate. Prefer off grid when we can, but our next excursion is a couple of nights on a full service campsite. After that it'll be Britstops, CSs, and stealthy stuff up in Northumberland, then probably more similar in France, Spain, Portugal in September (and maybe Italy and Greece. We'll see how it goes. Planning about six weeks so it may be a bit ambitious to attempt the latter two).
I shall probably hunker down at home for July and August. Too bleddy hot, and too many kids

 

[wingy]

A mix mate. Prefer off grid when we can, but our next excursion is a couple of nights on a full service campsite. After that it'll be Britstops, CSs, and stealthy stuff up in Northumberland, then probably more similar in France, Spain, Portugal in September (and maybe Italy and Greece. We'll see how it goes. Planning about six weeks so it may be a bit ambitious to attempt the latter two).
I shall probably hunker down at home for July and August. Too bleddy hot, and too many kids

Unless you maybe go Scandinavia.
Keep your eyes on fuel security too .
Sorry for the pessimism.

 

[skybluetony176]

A mix mate. Prefer off grid when we can, but our next excursion is a couple of nights on a full service campsite. After that it'll be Britstops, CSs, and stealthy stuff up in Northumberland, then probably more similar in France, Spain, Portugal in September (and maybe Italy and Greece. We'll see how it goes. Planning about six weeks so it may be a bit ambitious to attempt the latter two).
I shall probably hunker down at home for July and August. Too bleddy hot, and too many kids

I do laugh at people who only go hook up so only need a battery to complete the electricity circuit but still go out and buy an expensive set of batteries that they can and they’ll never ever cycle them.

 

[Kneeza]

I do laugh at people who only go hook up so only need a battery to complete the electricity circuit but still go out and buy an expensive set of batteries that they can and they’ll never ever cycle them.

Quite. Trawling from one bland field full of caravans to another is somewhat soul-destroying too.

 

[Kneeza]

Unless you maybe go Scandinavia.
Keep your eyes on fuel security too .
Sorry for the pessimism.

Thought about going north tbh, and we were keen to do a run via Germany (which we may take in partially in Sept/Oct anyway as we love it there, and there are lots of excellent Stellplatz) and along the Baltic coast and possibly over to Finland from Tallinn. However, guilt plays a part, and we'd have to hand over too much responsibility for my mum's care to my daughter. She's ok with it, but I don't think it's fair. Maybe next summer.
Anyway, have hijacked this thread and taken it somewhat OT. Apologies.
Edit: in case anyone was wondering, Schengen doesn't affect us as we both have dual nationality and UK and EU passports.
Apologies again

 

[Harry Krishner]

Sonnen batteries base their battery lifespan on 10,000 cycles although they are top of the range.

 

[Kneeza]

Sonnen batteries base their battery lifespan on 10,000 cycles although they are top of the range.

Bit big for me moho though