Joy Seppala at the U16s final (12 Viewers)

[Sky Blue Pete]

What's changed in your view then? You're more than willing to shoot down my opinion yet rarely give one of your own.

The club is currently stable largely thanks to Robins and Boddy who have worked in tandem to ensure that the failings of the past aren't repeated.

SISU keeping out of the day-to-day operations of the club is largely what's helped facilitate the recent success.

The accounts suggest that operationally on their side nothing has changed and Robins and the backroom staff are still heavily constrained in what they can feasibly do which consistently puts us at a significant disadvantage season after season.

BD has inside knowledge yes, but as I've stated I know a number of boardroom attendees who have close ties to Dave, Tim and Joy, so I'd wager they know as much about Joy as he does - if not more.

I broadly agree with you that the main reason for success over the last 4-5 years has been Joy through TF allowing the football club (DB and MR) to manage the day to day football club activity. I think TF is the link to the owner but the relationships seem to have depth, probably stability in these positions is a huge part of the success too.
Not sure it’s much more than that really. Some minor stuff put together has made a big difference too, these would include:

Proactively seeking to improve communication between the club and fans
Setting up supporters forum with all supporters groups
Moving back to the arena
Pricing structure of season tickets and categories to maximise income to the club
Ticket office at the ground
Longer term deals and proactively extending deals for important players

And not down to the club but all part of it

The relative success on the pitch this and last year
The passion and commitment of the away support and home support for that matter

Theres some negatives too of course

Stadium management has been a disaster in terms of public order
Transport absolute disaster
Lack of staff to lead supporting activity to maximise funds to the club
Longer term deals for players not at the level

Not covered everything I’m sure

 

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[oldskyblue58]

But how do they manage to keep money back when revenue were £11.8m and a wage bill of £13.2m

They had a loan from the EFL 2.4m , player trading, timing of cash flows in and out, etc

the loss of 4.26m includes 2.16m interest not paid but added to debt, and amortisation of player contracts 1.8m (not money paid out) depreciation 75k (again not money paid out)

 

[KenilworthSkyBlue]

I broadly agree with you that the main reason for success over the last 4-5 years has been Joy through TF allowing the football club (DB and MR) to manage the day to day football club activity. I think TF is the link to the owner but the relationships seem to have depth, probably stability in these positions is a huge part of the success too.
Not sure it’s much more than that really. Some minor stuff put together has made a big difference too, these would include:

Proactively seeking to improve communication between the club and fans
Setting up supporters forum with all supporters groups
Moving back to the arena
Pricing structure of season tickets and categories to maximise income to the club
Ticket office at the ground
Longer term deals and proactively extending deals for important players

And not down to the club but all part of it

The relative success on the pitch this and last year
The passion and commitment of the away support and home support for that matter

Theres some negatives too of course

Stadium management has been a disaster in terms of public order
Transport absolute disaster
Lack of staff to lead supporting activity to maximise funds to the club
Longer term deals for players not at the level

Not covered everything I’m sure

None of that answers my question. You've listed improvements/shortcomings made either by Boddy, Tynan or the commercial team. None of that can be credited to Tim or Joy.

The same applies to the remainder of the points regarding success on the pitch and the issue with who gets offered what with regards to contracts (a point that has been heavily pushed by myself over the last couple of months, despite some initial pushbacks).

What positive changes have you seen from SISU with regards to how the club operates?

 

[robbiekeane]

Well - they were and still I would assume are - putting short term loans in so not really

@oldskyblue58 just confirmed they don’t and from a cash flow perspective we are self sufficient?
Only losses are from interest (to themselves, added to debt), and player contracts amortisation

 

[Colin Steins Smile]

They had a loan from the EFL 2.4m , player trading, timing of cash flows in and out, etc

the loss of 4.26m includes 2.16m interest not paid but added to debt, and amortisation of player contracts 1.8m (not money paid out) depreciation 75k (again not money paid out)

Are you saying that in terms of daily trading the loss [without interest, which is not being realised...yet, amortisation and depreciation] was circa £300k??

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

None of that answers my question. You've listed improvements/shortcomings made either by Boddy, Tynan or the commercial team. None of that can be credited to Tim or Joy.

The same applies to the remainder of the points regarding success on the pitch and the issue with who gets offered what with regards to contracts (a point that has been heavily pushed by myself over the last couple of months, despite some initial pushbacks).

What positive changes have you seen from SISU with regards to how the club operates?

Agreeing a budget
Building relationships within the leadership of the club
Moving back to arena
Taking a greater interest in the success of the football club
Guaranteed the future of the club even though the accounts show significant challenges

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Agreeing a budget
Building relationships within the leadership of the club
Moving back to arena
Taking a greater interest in the success of the football club
Guaranteed the future of the club even though the accounts show significant challenges all be it with loans with a high interest that are difficult to pay back out of normal trading and most likely will only be paid at the time they sell the club on

 

[Colin Steins Smile]

Are there reports in the audited accounts that SISU have been realising elements of the loans to the club at the very high rate of interest?
My understanding is the issue in the medium to long term would be if SISU wanted to realise the loans....that would require the club to sell any asset they have....basically the players, as there isn't anything else left to sell as otium have a charge against Ryton.
The two alternative potential ways out for SISU to realise the loans would be to get the club into the PL and pocket the cash or some billionaire with an ego big enough to want to own CCFC to make them an offer that matches the loan [including interest].

 

[oldskyblue58]

I don't have a problem with how the club is currently run. It has to sustain itself, and i have long argued that all clubs should do so. That doesn't stop owners of any club putting money in to finance better though - but i would argue that any owner should only do so on the basis of additional shares or outright gift not secured interest paying loans

As for Seppala. I have met her, i don't either like or dislike her, certainly don't hate her. I am sure she can be perfectly charming and good company. My problem is that I don't trust her or those around her because of past actions. Trust takes a long time to build, is broken in seconds and rarely if ever is fully regained.

Looking from her side of things i can understand her reactions and actions to what went on, some of it as i said before was very clever on her part. But most fans look at the events from the football club side don't they? and her history from that view point will always be tainted.

Do i hang on to that past or obsess about it? no i say what i see now and going forward, i cant change the past its gone and cannot be changed. its wasted energy isn't it? If the club continues to be run as it is then realistically, pragmatically i am going to be satisfied.

I am not blind to the good things that are happening at the club, and yes she is involved in that. But to think that SISU (Seppalla) have suddenly seen the light and changed approach then i am unconvinced and see no real evidence of that. Sorry but i remain sceptical of some of the PR that apparently shows a change of heart and commitment to the club - a lot of it is fluff and nonsense. When asked the difficult questions we are no wiser

CCFC is a well run club, doing well at the moment, but it has been achieved by actually doing the financial basics right (not rocket science and probably driven by not having more "owners investment" to put in)), a business model that necessitates large player sales to survive and a big slice of good fortune (eg MR actually being out of work and available in the first place)

 

[oldskyblue58]

Are there reports in the audited accounts that SISU have been realising elements of the loans to the club at the very high rate of interest?
My understanding is the issue in the medium to long term would be if SISU wanted to realise the loans....that would require the club to sell any asset they have....basically the players, as there isn't anything else left to sell as otium have a charge against Ryton.
The two alternative potential ways out for SISU to realise the loans would be to get the club into the PL and pocket the cash or some billionaire with an ego big enough to want to own CCFC to make them an offer that matches the loan [including interest].

as all assets of the club are secured by legal charge in favour of ARVO then already any player sale in theory has to be cleared by ARVO.

So far there hasnt been sufficient funds available to withdraw funds except in 2019 when they took out £1.7m

 

[KenilworthSkyBlue]

Agreeing a budget
Building relationships within the leadership of the club
Moving back to arena
Taking a greater interest in the success of the football club
Guaranteed the future of the club even though the accounts show significant challenges

Agreeing a budget is the absolute bare minimum of operating any business or organisation. Incredible you're even citing it.

Building relationships within the leadership of the club - probably the only one I'd half agree with as I'd heard along the grape vine Boddy didn't have any real contact with Joy until the L2 Play-Off Final. I suppose that's improved.

Moving back to the arena was something they physically had to do.

Taking a greater interest in the football club isn't overly genuine IMO. She's taking an interest in an asset within her wider portfolio. I'd suggest her increased presence at games is more strategic than anything - but as I can't prove that I'm sure you'll disagree.

The future of the football club will be guaranteed by player sales, not by SISU. This method of operating has been a constant for around a decade.

 

[fernandopartridge]

Not my area of expertise so apologies if I am not using the correct terminology…but aren’t we making losses every year still and they are plugging the gap/covering the shortfall? Does that not count as investment? Serious question…even if they log it as a loan that’s still investment no?

No, they are not doing that. They lend money to the club to cover short term cashflow requirements but do not cover losses as such. They are a bit like a payday loan company.

 

[KenilworthSkyBlue]

No, they are not doing that. They lend money to the club to cover short term cashflow requirements but do not cover losses as such. They are a bit like a payday loan company.

They're a glorified Wonga.

 

[oldskyblue58]

Are you saying that in terms of daily trading the loss [without interest, which is not being realised...yet, amortisation and depreciation] was circa £300k??

take out the various items that do not involve the flow of funds and the starting point is a £665k loss

after adjusting for cash timing differences, the EFL loans, the player tradings actually paid or received (ie not the profit on the P&L acc) repaying £140k to the owners, ...... there was 2,500,881 left in the bank as at 31/05/2021

that would have been applied to player purchases in the closed season and payment of day to day activities in that same period

 

[fernandopartridge]

take out the various items that do not involve the flow of funds and the starting point is a £665k loss

after adjusting for cash timing differences, the EFL loans, the player tradings actually paid or received (ie not the profit on the P&L acc) repaying £140k to the owners, ...... there was 2,500,881 left in the bank as at 31/05/2021

that would have been applied to player purchases in the closed season and payment of day to day activities in that same period

Just a question osb, any idea if club TV income is paid in a lump or is it profiled across a season?

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Not at all and this isn’t about my opinion it’s about a person that has changed their opinion and stated the club are doing all the right things. This person has inside knowledge from somewhere and if we’re happy to hear his thoughts on injuries and signings and contracts then his opinion is interesting to me and it should be to you and others. I disagree with your opinion that nothings changed and that’s ok you are deaf to better days and you don’t even know what he thinks on this as he’s not answered

Knowing those things about the team doesn't mean they have inside info on the owners or their plans. They might have an eye on the training ground for injuries/tactics/disagreements etc, and they then might here a bit of juicy gossip about a signing etc.

The fact that Joy is still only covering the cashflow shortfall rather than additional investment to enable signings, and doing so via loans not capital introduced (and charging compound interest on those loans so they accumulate if not paid) tells you that her aim is still firmly focused on her/her investors financial returns rather than who well the club performs on the pitch. You don't need an ITK at the club to see that - the evidence is there in front of you.

 

[robbiekeane]

No, they are not doing that. They lend money to the club to cover short term cashflow requirements but do not cover losses as such. They are a bit like a payday loan company.

So lend it, then take it back?

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Agreeing a budget
Building relationships within the leadership of the club
Moving back to arena
Taking a greater interest in the success of the football club
Guaranteed the future of the club even though the accounts show significant challenges

A budget which is one of the lowest in the league even though our attendances are better than most. One of the biggest things leading to losses is the interest accumulated on the loans she provides. The club could have a much great ability to manouevre in the market without that millstone, but they keep getting added every year.

Even as it is can we say we have a guaranteed future if we had a bad season next year and less fans started to go? Or would we just see huge budget cuts again hampering us into the future?

The more interest/visibility at the club is for self-PR. Club are doing well so she wants to be associated with that. If it stops she'll stop coming. Nothing to do with an actual interest in the club beyond the financial implications.

Moving back to the Arena again was a commercial necessity because of loss of revenue and high costs of renting elsewhere.

To me it still seems like they're doing the bare minimum and hoping the likes of MR can make a posh handbag out of a sow's ear.

 

[KenilworthSkyBlue]

So lend it, then take it back?

They lend it with high interest attached.

 

[KenilworthSkyBlue]

Are there reports in the audited accounts that SISU have been realising elements of the loans to the club at the very high rate of interest?
My understanding is the issue in the medium to long term would be if SISU wanted to realise the loans....that would require the club to sell any asset they have....basically the players, as there isn't anything else left to sell as otium have a charge against Ryton.
The two alternative potential ways out for SISU to realise the loans would be to get the club into the PL and pocket the cash or some billionaire with an ego big enough to want to own CCFC to make them an offer that matches the loan [including interest].

SISU's strategy in the medium-long term regarding the repayment of the loans is for the club to continue selling intangible assets (players).

The issue with that strategy is that if you continue to sell your best players in any league, especially the Championship, it will more than likely eventually lead to relegation because as a model it's completely unsustainable.

 

[Grendel]

@oldskyblue58 just confirmed they don’t and from a cash flow perspective we are self sufficient?
Only losses are from interest (to themselves, added to debt), and player contracts amortisation

No he didn’t say that - they have made loans and of course registered some debenture notification with companies house didn’t they which I assume is asset security against further loans

 

[robbiekeane]

No he didn’t say that - they have made loans

The losses are not the thing to look at because they are to a great degree created by the interest that is not actually paid out and to a lesser degree the amortisation of player contracts.

The metric everyone should measure them by is cash flow. Basically that tells you the sources of monies actually coming in or going out. But don't focus on the one year because monies get held back or held back monies get spent the following year for specific purposes

Those cash flows which are available on sbs&l financials and clearly show the monies put in and taken out each year by the owners.

Over the last few years with MR to 2021 if taken in total those cash flows show the owners have not put net physical cash in to ccfc.

The "investment " in players is solely down to the player trading that has been done not new funds from the owners

Isn’t that exactly what he said? So they’ve not actually put anything in from a cash perspective - the losses are just from interest that’s added to the debt?

 

[skybluesam66]

Agreeing a budget is the absolute bare minimum of operating any business or organisation. Incredible you're even citing it.

Building relationships within the leadership of the club - probably the only one I'd half agree with as I'd heard along the grape vine Boddy didn't have any real contact with Joy until the L2 Play-Off Final. I suppose that's improved.

Moving back to the arena was something they physically had to do.

Taking a greater interest in the football club isn't overly genuine IMO. She's taking an interest in an asset within her wider portfolio. I'd suggest her increased presence at games is more strategic than anything - but as I can't prove that I'm sure you'll disagree.

The future of the football club will be guaranteed by player sales, not by SISU. This method of operating has been a constant for around a decade.

A decade ? Certainly the last 50 years

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Isn’t that exactly what he said? So they’ve not actually put anything in from a cash perspective - the losses are just from interest that’s added to the debt?

And thus if a large bid comes in you’d imagine most would not go back into the club.

 

[Grendel]

Isn’t that exactly what he said? So they’ve not actually put anything in from a cash perspective - the losses are just from interest that’s added to the debt?

The club borrowed nearly £2 million from the Master Fund the year before last and this charge raised this January

Sorry link doesn’t work but can be seen on companies house

 

[Grendel]

There also of course is the loan from the EFL

 

[usskyblue]

Can someone explain to me how it’s all good or it’s all bad and not something in the middle??????

Because that’s how this place works. PickaClique m8.

Grendel did a 180 on this particular subject to avoid any semblance of rationality. Ownership is what it is. Not a fucking fantastic situation but it could be spectacularly worse.

I’ve chosen (and sometimes had) to move on from situations way fucking worse than my football club’s owners past decisions.

 

[Grendel]

Because that’s how this place works. PickaClique m8.

Grendel did a 180 on this particular subject to avoid any semblance of rationality. Ownership is what it is. Not a fucking fantastic situation but it could be spectacularly worse.

I’ve chosen (and sometimes had) to move on from situations way fucking worse than my football club’s owners past decisions.

I have pointed out that I made exactly the same points about Sisu in 2012. I also supported the blatant attempt to bankrupt ACl in the pretence of building a new stadium when they engineered the Northampton move and broke the lease. It was a clever strategy

The problem mainly is the club clearly could operate as it was in the lower leagues. It had a functioning academy and could sell players at high fees to bigger clubs which would support the squad purchasing. We’ve only succeeded as we sunk to depths we hadn’t experienced for 60 years

At this level in simple terms they are out of their depth. Remember even under Coleman we were in a cup quarter final and we were looking upwards at that time. It fell apart as they can’t compete - it’s harder to sell and refund the way they have to. They actually have no money to put into the club

We’ve managed somehow to get back to where we were an unless the philosophy changes inevitably will just go back again

 

[oldskyblue58]

Just a question osb, any idea if club TV income is paid in a lump or is it profiled across a season?

Not sure to be honest fp and cant find anything that says. Would seem logical that each individual game televised gets paid shortly afterwards. Circa £100k for home side and £1ok for the away team i think

As for the main distributions i have always assumed it would be paid quarterly but dont know for sure

 

[Grendel]

Not sure to be honest fp and cant find anything that says. Would seem logical that each individual game televised gets paid shortly afterwards. Circa £100k for home side and £1ok for the away team i think

As for the main distributions i have always assumed it would be paid quarterly but dont know for sure

I was surprised when someone said the season ticket revenue was only paid out on a game by game basis from Ticketmaster - that seems really odd

 

[oldskyblue58]

just clarify.

over the period of MR's current tenure SISU have invested minus £115,828k. In those years there have been loans put in eg 2020 during pandemic £1.6m but also monies extracted eg 2019 £1.7m. In essence they have in the years up until 31/05/2021 put in very very little

What they have done is to act as bank of last resort when cash flow got out of shape and the club was short. But then extracted any such funding asap. Hence some of the loans from SISU Master Fund not ARVO

 

[oldskyblue58]

I was surprised when someone said the season ticket revenue was only paid out on a game by game basis from Ticketmaster - that seems really odd

i would not have thought that to be right - strange if it is

 

[samccov1987]

Question for the more financially knowledgable:

My understanding is that from a cash flow perspective we’re sustainable in that we operate self sufficiently. Sisu cover short term shortfall and charge interest; this interest pays off the initial money invested when they took us over all those years ago. Profit on Player sales does the same thing.

So if we do get some crazy bids for the big three are we near to the point where they have paid off the initial bad investment and can consider moving on?

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Knowing those things about the team doesn't mean they have inside info on the owners or their plans. They might have an eye on the training ground for injuries/tactics/disagreements etc, and they then might here a bit of juicy gossip about a signing etc.

The fact that Joy is still only covering the cashflow shortfall rather than additional investment to enable signings, and doing so via loans not capital introduced (and charging compound interest on those loans so they accumulate if not paid) tells you that her aim is still firmly focused on her/her investors financial returns rather than who well the club performs on the pitch. You don't need an ITK at the club to see that - the evidence is there in front of you.

I get that It was more interested in why he felt decisions were being made well

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

i would not have thought that to be right - strange if it is

It is the case yep