Joy Seppala at the U16s final (5 Viewers)

[Bugsy]

I was surprised when someone said the season ticket revenue was only paid out on a game by game basis from Ticketmaster - that seems really odd

It is the case yep

that's absolutely ridiculous if that's the case

 

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[Sky Blue Pete]

just clarify.

over the period of MR's current tenure SISU have invested minus £54k. In those years there have been loans put in eg 2020 during pandemic £1.6m but also monies extracted eg 2019 £1.7m. In essence they have in the years up until 31/05/2021 put in very very little

What they have done is to act as bank of last resort when cash flow got out of shape and the club was short. But then extracted any such funding asap. Hence some of the loans from SISU Master Fund not ARVO

That’s amazing it’s that figure - pretty much zero invested

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

that's absolutely ridiculous if that's the case

It’s on my list of questions for next forum

 

[KenilworthSkyBlue]

That’s amazing it’s that figure - pretty much zero invested

So much has changed!!!

 

[better days]

In terms of cashflow yes pretty much. In 2021 accounts they kept back 2.4m so they could pay out during the following year. That money was accumulated by restricting the playing budget.

As such it means at 31/05/21 at least the owners did need to put funds in to keep the club going and the club could meet its liabilities.

Each year end they will try to keep a pot back to pay up coming liabilities

Btw I am not critical of the way the club arranges its operations. I also think, though I don't agree with , some of the historical stuff was very clever. It damn near worked, the stubbornness that was associated was unforgiveable though.

As for Seppala having to come to Coventry to check on things financially is a little thin. Access to all she needs to know can be done remotely and I am certain she has staff doing that including her trusted associate who is also a director of sbs&l . But she can access at any time herself I am sure.

Surely her visit yesterday was about renewal of MR contract.

And to agree his budgets
He wouldn't have signed otherwise
Expect to see one or two decisions on players in the coming days
Robins is likely to also have the final say on any outgoing players too
He's in a strong position now

 

[fernandopartridge]

Question for the more financially knowledgable:

My understanding is that from a cash flow perspective we’re sustainable in that we operate self sufficiently. Sisu cover short term shortfall and charge interest; this interest pays off the initial money invested when they took us over all those years ago. Profit on Player sales does the same thing.

So if we do get some crazy bids for the big three are we near to the point where they have paid off the initial bad investment and can consider moving on?

I doubt it because they'll just see it as something that can be repeated again, why would they move on?

 

[robbiekeane]

The club borrowed nearly £2 million from the Master Fund the year before last and this charge raised this January

Sorry link doesn’t work but can be seen on companies house

But net net since MR has been in charge they are 54k up apparently

just clarify.

over the period of MR's current tenure SISU have invested minus £54k. In those years there have been loans put in eg 2020 during pandemic £1.6m but also monies extracted eg 2019 £1.7m. In essence they have in the years up until 31/05/2021 put in very very little

What they have done is to act as bank of last resort when cash flow got out of shape and the club was short. But then extracted any such funding asap. Hence some of the loans from SISU Master Fund not ARVO

so apart from short term loans which they get back immediately, they’ve not actually invested anything.

Therefore we have been self sufficient, no?

 

[Grendel]

i would not have thought that to be right - strange if it is

It seems odd as I assumed that was the need for pushing season tickets early to create a fund for the summer

Next year Season tickets

Tbf I agree with Gynn. We don't progress without not just the new fans but the day trippers too. Everyone welcome. Not everyone is as passionate as some of us some like an occasional game, others can't afford it all yhe time. No superfan status we're all equal and all just as important to the...

www.skybluestalk.co.uk

 

[Grendel]

But net net since MR has been in charge they are 54k up apparently


so apart from short term loans which they get back immediately, they’ve not actually invested anything.

Therefore we have been self sufficient, no?

well no as without the loans we’d have had no cash - it then gets paid back with interest when we sell players

 

[letsallsingtogether]

Can someone explain to me how it’s all good or it’s all bad and not something in the middle??????

On the field we are back to where we started when they took over.
Off it we now owe them instead of someone else.

 

[better days]

well no as without the loans we’d have had no cash - it then gets paid back with interest when we sell players

It's the same almost everywhere G
Abramovich was held up as the perfect owner, making donations of £1.6B rather than loans
Now it appears he wants them back
Football is a business like no other

 

[fernandopartridge]

It's the same almost everywhere G
Abramovich was held up as the perfect owner, making donations of £1.6B rather than loans
Now it appears he wants them back
Football is a business like no other

But the issue with SISU is that they've never actually grown the club's capacity to build its revenues, in fact it's gone in the opposite direction. It still I suspect punches below its weight on commercial income when compared with what might be considered peers.

 

[Grendel]

It's the same almost everywhere G
Abramovich was held up as the perfect owner, making donations of £1.6B rather than loans
Now it appears he wants them back
Football is a business like no other

Not really as the club has no assets

Ironically wasps have a £60 million pound asset. abramovich has made his business worth something to sell not actually worthless

 

[KenilworthSkyBlue]

But the issue with SISU is that they've never actually grown the club's capacity to build its revenues, in fact it's gone in the opposite direction. It still I suspect punches below its weight on commercial income when compared with what might be considered peers.

The commercial aspect of the club desperately needs looking at as it's a revenue stream the club should be maximising.

Simply blaming its shortcomings on a small headcount just isn't good enough now we're an established Championship club.

 

[fernandopartridge]

The commercial aspect of the club desperately needs looking at as it's a revenue stream the club should be maximising.

Simply blaming its shortcomings on a small headcount just isn't good enough now we're an established Championship club.

Agreed, likewise blaming it on the non 24/7 stadium access red herring. It would be interesting to compare to other clubs with average gates of around £20k.

 

[Grendel]

It is the case yep

J can’t see how it is unless we’ve agreed some arrangement that way to save on fixed fee payment of services m

It’s actually absurd when you think about it. If they operated that with every club and they went into liquidation every club would lose their season ticket revenue

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

J can’t see how it is unless we’ve agreed some arrangement that way to save on fixed fee payment of services m

It’s actually absurd when you think about it. If they operated that with every club and they went into liquidation every club would lose their season ticket revenue

Ok what I’ve been told is wrong then

 

[Grendel]

Ok what I’ve been told is wrong then

Don’t see why you are so prickly - I can’t believe this is standard operating from them. They hold all the money? Are any premier league clubs using them? Seems bizarre

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Question for the more financially knowledgable:

My understanding is that from a cash flow perspective we’re sustainable in that we operate self sufficiently. Sisu cover short term shortfall and charge interest; this interest pays off the initial money invested when they took us over all those years ago. Profit on Player sales does the same thing.

So if we do get some crazy bids for the big three are we near to the point where they have paid off the initial bad investment and can consider moving on?

I'm not quite sure we are self-sustainable even taking out things like interest and amortisation as our wage bill exceeds our 'normal' income, so relies on other means of income to cover (i.e. player sales) which aren't guaranteed and thus gives much less for the manager to improve the squad with and thus makes being sustinable on the pitch very difficult.

As for the point about the investment, I think you've got it wrong. The interest does not pay off the money invested, it's added onto it.

Example:

Year 0:
SISU turn up and provide a £10m loan, charging 10% interest p.a.

Year 1:
Investment brought forward: £10m
10% annual interest: £1m.
Money repaid: £500k.
Amount owing carried forward: £10.5m

Year 2:
B/f: £10.5m
10% Interest: £1.05m
Money repaid: £500k
C/f: £11.05m

So SISU are now owed just over £11m, despite having only put in £10m to start with and having already taken £1m of that back. And that situation will only get worse each year unless we can pay back at least the amount of interest added that year. Which we almost certainly can't and will get harder to do each year as interest is paid on the interest. So that debt to SISU will only ever get bigger.

 

[fernandopartridge]

Don’t see why you are so prickly - I can’t believe this is standard operating from them. They hold all the money? Are any premier league clubs using them? Seems bizarre

I'm sure such an arrangement would need to be regulated by the FSA or whatever their new equivalent is

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Don’t see why you are so prickly - I can’t believe this is standard operating from them. They hold all the money? Are any premier league clubs using them? Seems bizarre

I’m not being prickly sorry if it came across like that. If it can’t possibly the case then I’ve been told something that’s wrong

 

[SlowerThanPlatt]

I’m not being prickly sorry if it came across like that. If it can’t possibly the case then I’ve been told something that’s wrong

By who?

 

[KenilworthSkyBlue]

Agreed, likewise blaming it on the non 24/7 stadium access red herring. It would be interesting to compare to other clubs with average gates of around £20k.

I do a bit of work with the commercial department of a Championship club with gates more or less the same as ours.

The guys there are pretty slick and make us look amateur in comparison. Although that's not particularly difficult when our team is more or less the same as it was in L2.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I do a bit of work with the commercial department of a Championship club with gates more or less the same as ours.

The guys there are pretty slick and make us look amateur in comparison. Although that's not particularly difficult when our team is more or less the same as it was in L2.

Take the experience outside the ground on a match day. Ashton Gate was brilliant, how a modern ground should be with turnstiles removed for home fans as well. Our stadium looks every bit of its almost 20 years and like it hasn’t had a lick of paint since.

 

[Flying Fokker]

All she's doing is taking a vested interest into a company within her wider portfolio. That doesn't equate to being a fan.

There's a fundamental difference and sadly, as shown by comments on this thread, most posters can't seem to distinguish between the two.

Yep. Agreed. as I said, I’m not a Joy fan.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

I do a bit of work with the commercial department of a Championship club with gates more or less the same as ours.

The guys there are pretty slick and make us look amateur in comparison. Although that's not particularly difficult when our team is more or less the same as it was in L2.

Yep. Agreed. as I said, I’m not a Joy fan.

She fakes it brilliantly with her knowledge of the players past and present. As you say I’m sure it’s an act

 

[Skybluebeliever]

J can’t see how it is unless we’ve agreed some arrangement that way to save on fixed fee payment of services m

It’s actually absurd when you think about it. If they operated that with every club and they went into liquidation every club would lose their season ticket revenue

It’s covered by credit cards legalisation , if goods are paid by credit card the consumer has the right to have a refund if the goods are not received , so until the game goes ahead the merchandiser will not release the monies to the club

So for example last weeks game at home to Huddersfield the club would only have just received monies that were paid last year

there are insurances that be purchased but these are costly and few companies offer especially with covid

 

[Grendel]

It’s covered by credit cards legalisation , if goods are paid by credit card the consumer has the right to have a refund if the goods are not received , so until the game goes ahead the merchandiser will not release the monies to the club

So for example last weeks game at home to Huddersfield the club would only have just received monies that were paid last year

there are insurances that be purchased but these are costly and few companies offer especially with covid

So what for cash and debit card buyers?

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

It’s covered by credit cards legalisation , if goods are paid by credit card the consumer has the right to have a refund if the goods are not received , so until the game goes ahead the merchandiser will not release the monies to the club

So for example last weeks game at home to Huddersfield the club would only have just received monies that were paid last year

there are insurances that be purchased but these are costly and few companies offer especially with covid

What grendel is wrong - no!!!!

 

[Grendel]

What grendel is wrong - no!!!!

Well I still don’t get it. Debit cards loan purchases and cash purchases aren’t impacted.

So no it makes no sense and certainly won’t apply to clubs who deal with this themselves

 

[Grendel]

The terms and conditions protect the club. I can’t see how ticketmaster can use all football clubs revenue and invest it and make money as well as take fees from the club and the supporters for administration- this makes no sense to me

Season Ticket Terms and Conditions

1. Season Tickets are sold on a non-refundable basis. 2. Season Tickets remain the property of the Club at all times. 3. Season Tickets may not be re-sold or lent for value by Season Ticket Holders under any circumstances. 4.

www.ccfc.co.uk

 

[Skybluebeliever]

So what for cash and debit card buyers?

The club receive that cash straight away , there is a high percentage paid by credit card though

 

[Grendel]

The club receive that cash straight away , there is a high percentage paid by credit card though

how about the loan deal? I would guess that’s a high proportion

This is hardly the issue of the day but I don’t get it. The contract surely is with the football club and not the agent that’s paid to arrange tickets. The whole argument the club makes for discounted tickets at the time tickets are launched is that the money forms an essential element of the clubs transfer budget. This suggests that’s not a true statement doesn’t it?

I just can’t see why a seller would allow an agent to keep millions of pounds of its money to use as it likes before it pays out and surely the club would have to take insurance in the event The agent went into liquidation?

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

I know ticketmaster has a fair stranglehold on the entire market, but if those were the terms surely the clubs/league would use alternative sellers.

Should be that the money is released to the club immediately, but the club becomes liable for any refunds via the seller (for which they could take out insurance).

 

[Broken Hearted Sky Blue]

Well I still don’t get it. Debit cards loan purchases and cash purchases aren’t impacted.

So no it makes no sense and certainly won’t apply to clubs who deal with this themselves

Do they take cash? They don’t for away tickets