Do you want to discuss boring politics? (37 Viewers)

[fernandopartridge]

you really didn't understand it did you?

She talks and compares the difference between increasing tax take by raising taxes vs growing the economy. You have to look to increase the tax take as that is macroeconomics 101. She is saying that instead of increasing taxes which will depress demand in what is now a demand slump we should be looking at pro growth policies that increase demand and thus the tax take. This and fairer taxes for society and business.

Also to think Rachel Reeves the former BoE QE specialist as anti expansionary economics is just wrong.

Lol ok David, I'm talking about what her words look like to ordinary people and they imply heavily that taxes fund spending.

And when times are tight it’s even more important to ensure that taxes are fair, that taxpayers get value for money.

Where you are a sovereign currency issuer:

Times are not tight, are they?

Taxpayers aren't paying for anything, are they?

 

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[David O'Day]

Lol ok David, I'm talking about what her words look like to ordinary people and they imply heavily that taxes fund spending.



Where you are a sovereign currency issuer:

Times are not tight, are they?

Taxpayers aren't paying for anything, are they?

taxes do fund spending that is macro 101 as well government spending is paid for by the tax take. sometimes you also need deficit spending as well but tax revenue funds spending. are you saying this isn't true?

also she is pretty clear the the burden shouldn't fall on 'ordinary' people and more needs to be done on the cost of living crisis.

i just think you don't like her so attack her no matter what she does, a bit like grenners and biamou

 

[fernandopartridge]

taxes do fund spending that is macro 101 as well government spending is paid for by the tax take. sometimes you also need deficit spending as well but tax revenue funds spending. are you saying this isn't true?

also she is pretty clear the the burden shouldn't fall on 'ordinary' people and more needs to be done on the cost of living crisis.

i just think you don't like her so attack her no matter what she does, a bit like grenners and biamou

Of course it isn't true. How on earth would any government actually be able to pay for day to day spending? There is no current account, tax just removes money from the private sector. It doesn't get shuffled around from HMRC to the treasury to departments. Each £ spent by the government is just money spent into being, it is not tax collected.

I agree with her on where the burden lies, I just think her messaging is terrible. Government spending is not directly reliant on tax David you've said it yourself with your reference to Keynes.

I've said here before, Labour has been given an open goal via the COVID spending to expose the myth of tax and spend but is choosing to instead bring the ball back into the middle of the pitch. Ultimately, even if it ends up being successful in the election it will constrain them being able to do anything useful in government.

 

[Ian1779]

explain what she is wrong about there please?

she's very good and a major reason why Labour are according to polling seen as more economically sound than the tories

Aside from the first 4/5 paragraphs where she rightly highlights the catalogue of shitty things this government has done, there is nothing in that statement that would actually address any of the cost of living issues people face today. Yeah there is a couple of pretty soundbites, but nothing substantive at all.
This sums it up - it’s going to do fuck all to get the rent and electric paid.

 

[David O'Day]

Of course it isn't true. How on earth would any government actually be able to pay for day to day spending? There is no current account, tax just removes money from the private sector. It doesn't get shuffled around from HMRC to the treasury to departments. Each £ spent by the government is just money spent into being, it is not tax collected.

I agree with her on where the burden lies, I just think her messaging is terrible. Government spending is not directly reliant on tax David you've said it yourself with your reference to Keynes.

I've said here before, Labour has been given an open goal via the COVID spending to expose the myth of tax and spend but is choosing to instead bring the ball back into the middle of the pitch. Ultimately, even if it ends up being successful in the election it will constrain them being able to do anything useful in government.

Tax removes money from the private sector and then the government spends it. This is basic stuff, Deficit spending is when the spending is higher than the money brought in via the tax take.

what the actual fuck are you talking about? Taxation is not spent by the government?

The government does need to raises taxes to pay for government spending, it does not just create the money it spends.

This is basic macroeconomics

 

[David O'Day]

Aside from the first 4/5 paragraphs where she rightly highlights the catalogue of shitty things this government has done, there is nothing in that statement that would actually address any of the cost of living issues people face today. Yeah there is a couple of pretty soundbites, but nothing substantive at all.
This sums it up - it’s going to do fuck all to get the rent and electric paid.

View attachment 24608

So you decide to miss out all the other ideas it has and just pastes that as a gotcha? Yes I want the next generation of jobs to be British

Also it's a commons reply to the Autumn budget speech, it's not where you find detailed policies.

These have been announced along the way

 

[skybluetony176]

I’m just shooting from the hip here Michael but how about you cut VAT on energy for everyone and if you’re insistent that we can’t help the poorest because it helps the richest tax the richest in a different manner such as a super rich tax or close the tax loopholes the government displays faux anger about every five or so years before doing fuck all about them other than feed a couple of celebrity names to the press for a headline. You’ll also have the rare privilege of delivering one of your brexit dividends.

 

[shmmeee]

Of course it isn't true. How on earth would any government actually be able to pay for day to day spending? There is no current account, tax just removes money from the private sector. It doesn't get shuffled around from HMRC to the treasury to departments. Each £ spent by the government is just money spent into being, it is not tax collected.

I agree with her on where the burden lies, I just think her messaging is terrible. Government spending is not directly reliant on tax David you've said it yourself with your reference to Keynes.

I've said here before, Labour has been given an open goal via the COVID spending to expose the myth of tax and spend but is choosing to instead bring the ball back into the middle of the pitch. Ultimately, even if it ends up being successful in the election it will constrain them being able to do anything useful in government.

Out of interest, what’s your explanation for Labour polling ahead on trusted with the economy for the first time in ages?

I don’t disagree with you on the economics, but why add another hurdle in educating and convincing the press and public their understanding of economics is off?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Out of interest, what’s your explanation for Labour polling ahead on trusted with the economy for the first time in ages?

I don’t disagree with you on the economics, but why add another hurdle in educating and convincing the press and public their understanding of economics is off?

Would like to see into the polling but I’d assume at least part is due to people experiencing personal financial difficulties, seeing the cost of living going up and connecting it to the government.

Have the Tories gone down or Labour gone up?

 

[Grendel]

Would like to see into the polling but I’d assume at least part is due to people experiencing personal financial difficulties, seeing the cost of living going up and connecting it to the government.

Have the Tories gone down or Labour gone up?

this seems to be the latest I can see

Which political party would be the best at handling the economy?

Here is a list of problems facing the country. Could you say for each of them which political party you think would handle the problem best? The economy in general

yougov.co.uk

 

[shmmeee]

this seems to be the latest I can see

Which political party would be the best at handling the economy?

Here is a list of problems facing the country. Could you say for each of them which political party you think would handle the problem best? The economy in general

yougov.co.uk

Labour have caught up with Tories on best government to manage the economy | YouGov

Two thirds of Britons say the government is currently handling the economy poorly

yougov.co.uk

 

[Grendel]

Dan Hodges is having a proper Grenners like breakdown on twitter. He's flailing about that old weirdo Grenners did whenever Biamou scored a goal.

We're about 72 hours from him calling for Kenny Jackett to be made PM

Predicting grenners reply "IRA GERRY ADAMS CIDER WHYCOULDINEVERGET A JOB"

 

[PVA]

Amazing how Beergate has pretty much vanished from the face of the earth. Barely even getting a mention from The Mail and co today. Pathetic

 

[stupot07]

Amazing how Beergate has pretty much vanished from the face of the earth. Barely even getting a mention from The Mail and co today. Pathetic

Dan Hodges is still going at it on Twitter, now resulted to calling people Sir Kier Cultists if they dare to question him.

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

 

[fernandopartridge]

Tax removes money from the private sector and then the government spends it. This is basic stuff, Deficit spending is when the spending is higher than the money brought in via the tax take.

what the actual fuck are you talking about? Taxation is not spent by the government?

The government does need to raises taxes to pay for government spending, it does not just create the money it spends.

This is basic macroeconomics

You need to do some reading

 

[fernandopartridge]

Out of interest, what’s your explanation for Labour polling ahead on trusted with the economy for the first time in ages?

I don’t disagree with you on the economics, but why add another hurdle in educating and convincing the press and public their understanding of economics is off?

I think it's less they've pulled ahead than the Tories have gone backwards

 

[shmmeee]

I think it's less they've pulled ahead than the Tories have gone backwards

I mean it’s a binary question so one goes up one goes down. The one economic indicator they still lag massively on is ability to reduce the deficit.

Now you’ll say (rightly) that that shouldn’t be an economic indicator and it exposes a fundamental misunderstanding of macroeconomics in political and media circles which misinform the public. And I’ll say: live in the world we have not the one we want.

This I think is a problem a lot on the left struggle with. When faced with a system they disagree with they’d rather lose valiantly complaining about the system than accept it and make the best of a bad hand.

Examples include “defund the police”, modern economics, the press, etc. etc. outside of party politics the environmental movement basically fucked itself with this thinking “All we need to do is change how 7 billion people live, then we don’t need nuclear/electric cars/whatever”.

 

[PVA]

This I think is a problem a lot on the left struggle with. When faced with a system they disagree with they’d rather lose valiantly complaining about the system than accept it and make the best of a bad hand.

Perfect is the enemy of good.

 

[David O'Day]

You need to do some reading

i have, that governments raise money by taxation is basic macro.

what models say otherwise? you mention keynes but his general advocates spending less money than the tax take in periods of positive growth and deficit spending in periods of economic contraction?

 

[PVA]

Gove off his tits this morning

 

[Northants Sky Blue]

This I think is a problem a lot on the left struggle with. When faced with a system they disagree with they’d rather lose valiantly complaining about the system than accept it and make the best of a bad hand.

100%.
"Things are shit" v `Compromise a little to get elected then change things that are shit'

 

[Ian1779]

So you decide to miss out all the other ideas it has and just pastes that as a gotcha? Yes I want the next generation of jobs to be British

Also it's a commons reply to the Autumn budget speech, it's not where you find detailed policies.

These have been announced along the way

It’s a list of buzzwords and catchphrases - not policy and ideas.

 

[Grendel]

You need to do some reading

He does

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I mean it’s a binary question so one goes up one goes down. The one economic indicator they still lag massively on is ability to reduce the deficit.

Now you’ll say (rightly) that that shouldn’t be an economic indicator and it exposes a fundamental misunderstanding of macroeconomics in political and media circles which misinform the public. And I’ll say: live in the world we have not the one we want.

This I think is a problem a lot on the left struggle with. When faced with a system they disagree with they’d rather lose valiantly complaining about the system than accept it and make the best of a bad hand.

Examples include “defund the police”, modern economics, the press, etc. etc. outside of party politics the environmental movement basically fucked itself with this thinking “All we need to do is change how 7 billion people live, then we don’t need nuclear/electric cars/whatever”.

Or they emigrate somewhere with a better system. The 2 main left spheres I operate in do suffer from what you describe though.

Unions ‘Isn’t the government really crap, let’s organise a rally’

Republic ‘Isn’t the monarchy crap, let’s wear witty T-shirts against the Queen’

In either circle those who actually deliver things and are focused on the end goal are gold dust and held in some mythical status. The issue I have with incrementalist views though is simply that the country and the world don’t have enough time for them to take effect.

 

[Philosoraptor]

I know PVA has just posted this, but it is so worth having another repost.

 

[shmmeee]

Or they emigrate somewhere with a better system. The 2 main left spheres I operate in do suffer from what you describe though.

Unions ‘Isn’t the government really crap, let’s organise a rally’

Republic ‘Isn’t the monarchy crap, let’s wear witty T-shirts against the Queen’

In either circle those who actually deliver things and are focused on the end goal are gold dust and held in some mythical status. The issue I have with incrementalist views though is simply that the country and the world don’t have enough time for them to take effect.

Yeah I’d agree, certainly when it comes to the environment. Honestly I just don’t think humans as a species are built to handle that kind of threat. But I’m pretty down on our chances overall there.

I think there’s a place for Overton window shifting and idealism, I just don’t think it’s electoral politics.

 

[David O'Day]

It’s a list of buzzwords and catchphrases - not policy and ideas.

as i said no one sets policies in the reply to a budget speech

they have announced policies since then

 

[shmmeee]

100%.
"Things are shit" v `Compromise a little to get elected then change things that are shit'

I mean the other thing is any left wing group has infinitely more influence over a nasty centrist Labour government than a Tory one. This country made serious gains in equality and public services even while also fucking up Iraq or whatever your hobby horse is.

We live in a fucking cap doffing monarchy with one of the worst class systems on the planet, the fact we’re to the left of places like the States is a miracle in itself quite frankly.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Yeah I’d agree, certainly when it comes to the environment. Honestly I just don’t think humans as a species are built to handle that kind of threat. But I’m pretty down on our chances overall there.

I think there’s a place for Overton window shifting and idealism, I just don’t think it’s electoral politics.

I guess my point is I find it hard to be inspired by someone offering to tweak around the edges or as Biden said ‘fundamentally change nothing’. Perhaps when/if I hit 50+ that’ll change. The idealist in me wants more ambition from politicians on all sides

 

[fernandopartridge]

i have, that governments raise money by taxation is basic macro.

what models say otherwise? you mention keynes but his general advocates spending less money than the tax take in periods of positive growth and deficit spending in periods of economic contraction?

Taxation wouldn't exist without government spending in the first place, so no they do not need to raise any money through taxation. Think about it.

 

[shmmeee]

I guess my point is I find it hard to be inspired by someone offering to tweak around the edges or as Biden said ‘fundamentally change nothing’. Perhaps when/if I hit 50+ that’ll change. The idealist in me wants more ambition from politicians on all sides

I just want a break from endless Tory governments mate. Ideally before my kids are adults. I’d love a socialist revolution, but let’s face it, it’s not going to happen is it?

 

[David O'Day]

Taxation wouldn't exist without government spending in the first place, so no they do not need to raise any money through taxation. Think about it.

i have thought about and governments need taxation as it is a non inflationary way of raising income

if a government doesn't levy taxation how does it spend money?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I just want a break from endless Tory governments mate. Ideally before my kids are adults. I’d love a socialist revolution, but let’s face it, it’s not going to happen is it?

I don’t want a socialist revolution. A British FDR would be the dream. Right now I would take Andy Burnham but he’s cosy where he is.

Scotland is lost. Wales hasn’t got enough seats and there are too many parts of England that aren’t going to switch red. Culture war bullshit means that people think it’s the party of woke vegans.

Oh that and the quiet gerrymandering and manipulation taking place at the moment.

 

[fernandopartridge]

i have thought about and governments need taxation as it is a non inflationary way of raising income

if a government doesn't levy taxation how does it spend money?

It tells somebody at its own bank to strike a few keys and credits the treasury accounts. It uses taxation to manage inflation and to encourage use of the currency and therefore uphold its value. It does not rely on taxation for spending per se. It's a myth that has basically driven us to the mess we are in today.

 

[Grendel]

It tells somebody at its own bank to strike a few keys and credits the treasury accounts. It uses taxation to manage inflation and to encourage use of the currency and therefore uphold its value. It does not rely on taxation for spending per se. It's a myth that has basically driven us to the mess we are in today.

Most spending I assume comes from borrowing