Why I like the diamond and how it suits us. (3 Viewers)

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Before I start, this is the team I'll play so everything I say on it is with this XI in mind:
Murphy
Clarke Malaga Wood Hussey
Jennings
Barton Thomas
Fleck
Cody Elliott​

I'll start from defence to strikers.​

Defence: Some have seen what G Neville has said on MNF of the modern day full back, and this formation suits our full backs, it allows Clarke and Hussey to push forward (whereas say a 4-4-2, the fullbacks are more defensive minded) putting crosses in for Cody (he scored a fair few headers for Gillingham, and a few for us) or alternatively, knock it back inside e.g. Barton to have a shot or to recycle play. Last year we got exploited down the flanks but this year we have worked on that and the 2 goals from open play we have conceded I believe was down to Brown's poor positioning and not being fast enough to make up for that whereas Clarke + Chrstie are. Also, I have noticed, when we do not have the ball, Barton + Kilbane have come out wide to help their full back. With Malaga at CB, this complients the formation due to his willingness to keep the ball on deck.​

Why it suits us? A 4-4-2 for example would restrict their opportunites to go forward.​

Midfield: We have 4, 3 in particular, talented midfield. We have Jennings, who gives the ball away rarely because he plays a simple pass to either a full back or another CM, he is also the perfect man for our team to sit back, dictate tempo and break down oppositition attacks, which he has done successfully so far. Barton, was being headhunted by L'pool and Chelski before he got crocked and is well known for his creativity and being a passing box-to-box midfielder, and he has shown his worth so far barely misplacing passes and he looks comfortable in the system. Thomas shown his worth last year being competitive against Championship teams and he weren't too far off Bigi, he is similar to Barton and he impressed me with his willingness to keep the ball on deck, his tackling ability and when he says he models his play on Scholes, he shows glimpses of that comparison. Now for Fleck, he looked a class above v Yeovil, he needs to be in that #10 role to truely thrive and live up to his early promise, also, I think he is the key to making this formation work as we have seen with 'macca' and Baker, they are good at dribbling but don't have the ability to pick a pass or awareness of a pass as well as Fleck.

Also, with Baker and McSheffrey on the wings in a 4-4-2 will also leave the full backs exposed, e.g. Kyle Walker, QPR v CCFC where macca hung off Walker like a girl and he scores, natural width just got beat!​

Why it suits us? Our wingers are poor, can take on a man (sometimes) but can't cross and this is largely why AB failed and suceeded at Watford. Also, look at England v Italy. With Fleck, him on the wing would be such a shame, like Scholes for England, a waste! And Jennings can give the other 3 confidence to go forward as he'll sit back.​

Forwards: I think we need to play 2 upfront as I think the top teams play 1 upfront as he'll have the ability to perform multiple roles (e.g. Gomez, RVP, Drogba, Huntelaar) whereas at this level, they don't have that ability to perform those roles, for example, Cody isn't a target man as with 'Ball' (Well, he's supposed to be) and Elliott has a bit more pace but Cody gets into them positions to score, and I don't think any of our strikers could play a lone role because, Elliott + Cody would get bullied by two 6"+ CBs whereas Ball (should) be able to hold his own but he needs someone to meet his flick ons.​

Why this suits us? I don't feel we have a striker to play a lone role IMO.​

I think that with a better manager with better tactical awareness, this system could work wonders and people have targeted this formation because of ATs shortcomings but if he had played 4-4-2 or any system, we would've went down anyway IMO and it is too easy to blame the system when things go bad. In fact, it hasn't gone badly, just not to plan atm.​

Everything I have said has had the fact we're in L1 in mind, hence bigging up certain players.​

Thank you for reading and will welcome any criticism etc. ​

 

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[Martin180]

I think you are pretty much spot on ,my only reservation is about Hussey .Flatters to decieve to often

 

[CCFC_Charlie]

Completely agree with you, the system was not the problem in my opinion

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

I think you are pretty much spot on ,my only reservation is about Hussey .Flatters to decieve to often

Thank you, I rate Hussey, but is a too 'hit and miss', as with Baker, macca, Bell.

 

[Martin180]

Thank you, I rate Hussey, but is a too 'hit and miss', as with Baker, macca, Bell.

I would try Kilbane at left back and i think baker will flourish in this division .He was showing good signs under AT ....

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

I would try Kilbane at left back and i think baker will flourish in this division .He was showing good signs under AT ....

For teams with slow wingers, but against a pacey winger he'd get terrorised.

Baker showed glimpses but overall, his lack of ability for passing is shown and why Fleck is needed ASAP!

 

[Martin180]

Yup we ,for me, are missing two crucial players in Fleck and Thomas .Once we get them fit i think we have a midfield more than good enough for this league

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Yup we ,for me, are missing two crucial players in Fleck and Thomas .Once we get them fit i think we have a midfield more than good enough for this league

On paper anyway, it is better than last seasons and I think it would hold it's own in the Championship.

 

[Sky Blue Sheepy]

My problem is we are always being sucker punched because our full backs are up their end of the pitch when the opposition counters. I fancy letting them defend properly for 90mins, or the new boss uses subs and considers alternatives once fit.

 

[hill83]

Whenever we do get wide offensively, using Hussey as an example, it's been him against the oppositions right midfielder and right back.
When defensively it's two against one in their favour. Our midfielders playing narrow facilitates this.

If the ball is being played further up the pitch and it's our midfield releasing the full backs this formation works. Unfortunately when we are up against it, which we are a lot of the time, and our midfield go missing. It's down to our fullbacks to collect the ball from the back and bring it the length of the pitch, it's too slow and predictable. And if by chance they do end up with a chance to cross, it's taken so long to get there, the opposition are set up to deal with it and the our full backs are breathing out of their arse. Leaving us exposed to a counter.

It's a good formation when things are going our way and we are playing well. But it's too fragile in my opinion, when a move breaks down we are exposed.

 

[skybluesteve76]

I thought fleck was awful at Yeovil!

 

[bamalamafizzfazz]

I don't think anybody is questioning the the ideology behind the diamond formation or that with our current crop of playersit is the most suitable formation. The concern for me has been the way the team plays in the formation.

The fundamental element for the diamond to be successfull is finding space in the centre of the pitch and trying to pull your opposition out of their original positions (I am going to attempt to explain this in words so please bare with me).

For me the main objective of the diamond formation is to get the ball to the tip of the diamond as often as possible. This should be your creative outlet for the entire team and the player who has space to create goalscoring opportunities. In order to do this let's start from having the ball at the back*.

*Assuming your opposition is playing a 4-4-2 and we play with the team shown above

Defence gets ball to Jennings, he has a very important role of holding the ball up and dictating the play. He get's closed down by one of the central midfielders leaving lets say Barton unmarked.

The idea now is to get the ball to Barton whilst he has the space. Whilst Barton has space he will be closed down by somebody else. He passes to whichever player is unmarked.

The ball is moved around until Fleck is in space. Now the defence has a problem do they drop a midfielder back to cover Fleck or does a defender step up to challenge. Either way this presents another player with space to pick out a pass. Ideally a defender steps up and Flec slips the ball in to an unmarked Cody... Bang. GOAL!

If space is tight in the middle the wide full backs move forward as 'wingers' and offer a player in space out wide as the play becomes congested in the centre. This will only work if at this point the central midfielder on that side stays in a deeper position to cover the full back who is currently out of position.


This is just a couple of examples of how best to utilise the diamond formation. The most important element to the whole thing is accurate passing and players moving into space. Get the ball to the tip of the diamond and this presents problems for the opposition.

Of course you always have to be able to adapt your formation and style to what the opposition is doing which is something for me that Thorn see unable to recognise.



Thanks for indulging me and apologies if none of this made any sense but hopefully some of you get the idea of what I am trying to communicate.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Whenever we do get wide offensively, using Hussey as an example, it's been him against the oppositions right midfielder and right back.
When defensively it's two against one in their favour. Our midfielders playing narrow facilitates this.

If the ball is being played further up the pitch and it's our midfield releasing the full backs this formation works. Unfortunately when we are up against it, which we are a lot of the time, and our midfield go missing. It's down to our fullbacks to collect the ball from the back and bring it the length of the pitch, it's too slow and predictable. And if by chance they do end up with a chance to cross, it's taken so long to get there, the opposition are set up to deal with it and the our full backs are breathing out of their arse. Leaving us exposed to a counter.

It's a good formation when things are going our way and we are playing well. But it's too fragile in my opinion, when a move breaks down we are exposed.

When the fullbacks attack they have always have someone with them, the last 2 games, Kilbane + Baker (macca when he came one) have been out wide helping/taking the ball on.

On a side note, I hope the diamond is kept!

 

[Ccfcisparks]

I thought fleck was awful at Yeovil!

Even though he went off early into the game, and whipped in that brilliant cross from the freekick for Cody's goal

 

[KersleyDigs]

I disagree. We concede far too many goals by being exposed in wide areas on the counter and as soon as a team starts to play direct into the corners we lose our width going forward as the fullbacks get pinned. Once this happens, and it often has, our fullbacks stop going forward and our width is gone. The whole system then faulters.

 

[@richh87]

Whenever we do get wide offensively, using Hussey as an example, it's been him against the oppositions right midfielder and right back.
When defensively it's two against one in their favour. Our midfielders playing narrow facilitates this.

If the ball is being played further up the pitch and it's our midfield releasing the full backs this formation works. Unfortunately when we are up against it, which we are a lot of the time, and our midfield go missing. It's down to our fullbacks to collect the ball from the back and bring it the length of the pitch, it's too slow and predictable. And if by chance they do end up with a chance to cross, it's taken so long to get there, the opposition are set up to deal with it and the our full backs are breathing out of their arse. Leaving us exposed to a counter.

It's a good formation when things are going our way and we are playing well. But it's too fragile in my opinion, when a move breaks down we are exposed.

I love the diamond when attacking - and it definitely suits our players, but as you say it is fragile when things break down.

Then again - we usually take the lead, so could start with a diamond and then change formation to protect the scoreline.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

I disagree. We concede far too many goals by being exposed in wide areas on the counter and as soon as a team starts to play direct into the corners we lose our width going forward as the fullbacks get pinned. Once this happens, and it often has, our fullbacks stop going forward and our width is gone. The whole system then faulters.

Ok, fair enough, but what formation DOES suit us?

Much is being made of the exploitation out wide but when we defend, Barton + Kilbane defend wide, protecting their full back, I a 4-4-2, it would be Baker + McSheffrey, who are amongst the worst defenders I have seen in a Cov shirt.

The full backs get forward fairly well in 90 mins, but if 1 gets tired, take 1 off, ATs major flaw was he was too reactive, gets out thought, out done by his opposite number.

 

[KersleyDigs]

Ok, fair enough, but what formation DOES suit us?

Much is being made of the exploitation out wide but when we defend, Barton + Kilbane defend wide, protecting their full back, I a 4-4-2, it would be Baker + McSheffrey, who are amongst the worst defenders I have seen in a Cov shirt.

The full backs get forward fairly well in 90 mins, but if 1 gets tired, take 1 off, ATs major flaw was he was too reactive, gets out thought, out done by his opposite number.

I think in playing a 4-4-2 with wingers, the wingers job is not so much to cover the fullback defensively, but more to do the offensive work down the flanks. It takes the pressure off the fullback to get forward and allows them to pick and choose when to go and when to stay and hold their shape defensively.

 

[@richh87]

I think in playing a 4-4-2 with wingers, the wingers job is not so much to cover the fullback defensively, but more to do the offensive work down the flanks. It takes the pressure off the fullback to get forward and allows them to pick and choose when to go and when to stay and hold their shape defensively.

Yeah, but then Fleck has to be pushed into a position he doesn't suit - or like.

For me everything needs building around Fleck.

 

[WestEndAgro]

Yes diamond for me, with the required tweaks as players fade/tire, Jennings at the base looks quality and with Fleck at the tip, Barton and Thomas either side we should be successful , it certainly worked first half, the players who struggled with the system were Brown and Kilbane. Jordan Clarke will make a big difference on the right Just my opinion !

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

I think in playing a 4-4-2 with wingers, the wingers job is not so much to cover the fullback defensively, but more to do the offensive work down the flanks. It takes the pressure off the fullback to get forward and allows them to pick and choose when to go and when to stay and hold their shape defensively.

We have sh!t winger so a 4-4-2 would fail, like it did under AB, CC, ID, MA!

Baker, Bell McSheffrey are terrible wingers, the formation we have atm, is better going forward, not as good as a 4-4-2 defending, but not many are, 4-4-2 was designed for direct football, 2 CMs ditribute out wide for a cross to a big man, rinse and repeat and CBs hoof to a big man, keeping a flat 4 at all times.

We try to keep the ball on deck and retain possession, 4-4-2 would not help this, and isn't made for what we're aiming for. Fact.

In 4-4-2, full backs don't attack as much because it's a formation where they are more defensive than attacking, also, the role of a full back has changed, they are now more wide midfielders than defenders now.

 

[KersleyDigs]

The problem with the diamond is it is so easily undone, even by a team like Bury!!!!

It is not a solid formation in which to win 90 mins of football. I can see the merits of swithching to it whilst chasing a game in the last 10 minutes, but over the course of a full game the diamond is always exploited

 

[skybluesteve76]

Even though he went off early into the game, and whipped in that brilliant cross from the freekick for Cody's goal

Totally. Great cross for Codys header. Looked slow, overweight and gave the ball away! Then went off injured. Reminded of coke head kev.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

The problem with the diamond is it is so easily undone, even by a team like Bury!!!!

It is not a solid formation in which to win 90 mins of football. I can see the merits of swithching to it whilst chasing a game in the last 10 minutes, but over the course of a full game the diamond is always exploited

Bury actually switched to the diamond, in the 1st half, when they were playing 4-4-2, we destroyed them.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Totally. Great cross for Codys header. Looked slow, overweight and gave the ball away! Then went off injured. Reminded of coke head kev.

Tbf, he is just stocky. He doesn't need to be fast, he needs to have skills to play AM, which he does and speed isn't needed, look at Xavi, Fabregas, Iniesta, Pirlo and. Silva

 

[shmmeee]

My problem is we are always being sucker punched because our full backs are up their end of the pitch when the opposition counters. I fancy letting them defend properly for 90mins, or the new boss uses subs and considers alternatives once fit.

Played properly that shouldn't be a problem, but you're seein issues with so many new players. Its obvious Brown isn't happy in that role and Kilbane and Barton have to learn to pull wide and support.

This is why I was a proponent of giving thorn 10 games. The system will work, and I'm a bit worried of we bring in someone to play another system without the players for it.

 

[@richh87]

4-1-3-1-1 for me

The three in midfield with Jennings behind wouldn't have us so exposed - and would allow Fleck to play in his best position.

Not saying it's perfect - and the personnel might be changed to bring Baker or *cough* Bell in for Kilbane or Thomas.

 

[Sutty]

Just call us the Juventus of League 1

 

[oldskyblue58]

I dont think it is the formation that lets us down...... We have played the diamond, 4 4 2 , 4 1 3 2, etc all have worked from time to time.

The reason no formation works consistently is that through out the team there is no pace and the team plays at a very slow tempo. Pace is not only important when attacking but also in defending ..... we just dont have much (any)... we dont have players to get behind defenders and our defenders do not get back in to position quickly. A slow tempo allows other teams to get organised or means we lose the ball more often in our half and defend deeper.

 

[davebart]

My problem is we are always being sucker punched because our full backs are up their end of the pitch when the opposition counters. I fancy letting them defend properly for 90mins, or the new boss uses subs and considers alternatives once fit.

which is why the diamond doesn't work. the full backs are expected to do too much.

If the wingers can't cross they aren't wingers. Having said this there are very few players who can cross the ball which is why David Beckham is so highly thought of for a very limited player.