Grendel
Well-Known Member
independent
Wasps downward spiral... (23 Viewers)
- Thread starter CCFC54321
- Start date
independent
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
They accuse Nick of banning people from here, or throttling their access as they like to keep referring to it, when as far as I can remember only Italia and his never ending advertising got banned while they throw a fit if anyone points out the obvious on their forums.
Loved when the chap on DW said Worcester supporters had their head in the sand and were willfully ignoring the signs
Nick
Administrator
They accuse Nick of banning people from here, or throttling their access as they like to keep referring to it, when as far as I can remember only Italia and his never ending advertising got banned while they throw a fit if anyone points out the obvious on their forums.
Loved when the chap on DW said Worcester supporters had their head in the sand and were willfully ignoring the signs
Strangely the other day when bad stuff was coming out about Wasps, somebody was kicking off they were banned. They weren't banned.
Think it's a way to try and discredit what's said on here.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Dubai dodger says you blocked him posting
DrunkenWasps.com - A warning to SBT / non rugby posters
DrunkenWasps.com discussion board : Unofficial Wasps news and views
m.rugbynetwork.net
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
That’s funny as I swear my account on there just isn’t allowed to post. Have tried on a few browsers and it doesn’t work-just refreshes the page
The Trust Deed was prepared for WASPs Finance PLC and the Trustee was similarly appointed and says he operates per the Deed
He says he cannot advise the Bondholders
So go from there
Nick
Administrator
I assume it's the one of the selection of VPNs he was using.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Shugs should be a detective - interesting he clearly spends a lot of time on here as well
MusicDating
Euro 2016 Prediction League Champion!!
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Wonky has nailed you though G
Bought down by an Octogenarian - the debate was centred around the fact that as she and Vulgaris have met Derek they will have nothing bad said about him as he is a lovely guy
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Sadly this is the kind of ill informed tripe we have in the Wasps fanbase.
Vulgaris runs the forum and frankly is a moron
I'm not sure you're reading the room.
It's not that no-one here is concerned. Of course we are, but there is a lot more context you seem to miss.
We've been on the edge of bankruptcy as a club in the past. We were spiralling down into oblivion with little success on the pitch, a tenancy agreement that shafted us completely and a football club whose fans hated us. Our D.O.R. was putting his hands in his own pocket to buy supplies for the physios to treat the players, we called former players out of retirement just to sit on the bench so we were able to field a team, and players were going unpaid.
Then Derek came along and saved the club. He poured vast amounts of his own personal money into a club that wasn't his natural home. And he did that for two reasons.
1) He loves rugby. The game, the atmosphere, the crowds, the fans, the friendships, the rivalries, the whole thing. The first time I ever spoke to him we chatted on the phone for an hour about different games, our favourite moments, the players we enjoyed watching, how we thought the club would do. Plenty of people have sotries of meeting him in a bar in France and spending time just chatting to him as they would with any other fan. In fact I've not heard from anyone who has met him with an open mind who thinks he isn't genuine.
2) He saw an opportunity to make money from the club. Now I'm the first to admit I was against the move to Coventry when it was first announced, it adds an hour or two onto my travel time in each direction, and I knew I'd get to fewer games, but the imagination and scope of the plans is truly staggering, and it is hard not to be impressed by the ambition of it all. The fact that there was a stadium going begging, a stadium that had essentially been built for a football team whose owners were so arrogant they screwed over the freehold owners and then flounced off in a huff to try to devalue it enough that they could buy it at a steal was serendipity of the highest order.
I can understand why fans of CCFC feel aggrieved at how things have worked out, but if SISU had dealt with the council the way Wasps did, and not tried to bully them into a situation that was not what they wanted then there would have been no stadium to buy. SISU and Joyless showed their true colours by trying again and again to sue Wasps unsuccessfully instead of attempting to build a mutually beneficial relationship.
Now obviously those original plans have not gone the way anyone at Wasps hoped, and things don't look brilliant right now. But there is a huge amount of love and support for Derek and the team he has assembled among the fans of the club. We are worried, but we trust him. We wouldn't have a club without him.
We're concerned about the bond, but figure there is likely a plan. From the way things have worked out I suspect there was a plan, and something happened to throw a spanner in the works. They wouldn't have been able to mention HSBC if they weren't involved, so something must have happened there. Maybe the threat of more legal action from CCFC was the issue? Who knows. I'm a bond holder and I'm ok with waiting as long as my 6.5% is being paid.
We're concerned about the lack of income, but understand that Rugby is a pretty poor way to try to make money. The plan for the club was for hotels, conferences, concerts, football, netball, and rugby all to come together. Covid effectively killed every single one of those income streams, and it is only just starting to bounce back. Hotels, Bars, Concert Venues and other similar businesses went under all over the country and so the fact that we are still here is a testament to how well the club is run.
We're concerned about the performances on the field, as a fan base we have different theories about what is causing it, but that is what this place is for, we disagree, we debate, sometimes we get cross, but we are all Wasps fans first and foremost.
We're concerned that CCFC might be more trouble than they are worth. Not a single game played this season and already legal threats. It's like your club can't understand that a healthy working relationship benefits us both. We aren't in competition, we can both succeed.
I'm sure some people are concerned about the training centre, but I'm not. It was never owned by Wasps, it was owned by Derek and Chris, now it is owned by just Chris, who is not only a very switched on and successful guy, but sits on the board of Wasps. A company doesn't have to own a property for it to be its home. Just like the freehold of the Arena does not belong to Wasps, the freehold of the training centre doesn't either.
So yeah we're concerned, but we certainly aren't panicking yet.
Vulgaris runs the forum and frankly is a moron
I'm not sure you're reading the room.
It's not that no-one here is concerned. Of course we are, but there is a lot more context you seem to miss.
We've been on the edge of bankruptcy as a club in the past. We were spiralling down into oblivion with little success on the pitch, a tenancy agreement that shafted us completely and a football club whose fans hated us. Our D.O.R. was putting his hands in his own pocket to buy supplies for the physios to treat the players, we called former players out of retirement just to sit on the bench so we were able to field a team, and players were going unpaid.
Then Derek came along and saved the club. He poured vast amounts of his own personal money into a club that wasn't his natural home. And he did that for two reasons.
1) He loves rugby. The game, the atmosphere, the crowds, the fans, the friendships, the rivalries, the whole thing. The first time I ever spoke to him we chatted on the phone for an hour about different games, our favourite moments, the players we enjoyed watching, how we thought the club would do. Plenty of people have sotries of meeting him in a bar in France and spending time just chatting to him as they would with any other fan. In fact I've not heard from anyone who has met him with an open mind who thinks he isn't genuine.
2) He saw an opportunity to make money from the club. Now I'm the first to admit I was against the move to Coventry when it was first announced, it adds an hour or two onto my travel time in each direction, and I knew I'd get to fewer games, but the imagination and scope of the plans is truly staggering, and it is hard not to be impressed by the ambition of it all. The fact that there was a stadium going begging, a stadium that had essentially been built for a football team whose owners were so arrogant they screwed over the freehold owners and then flounced off in a huff to try to devalue it enough that they could buy it at a steal was serendipity of the highest order.
I can understand why fans of CCFC feel aggrieved at how things have worked out, but if SISU had dealt with the council the way Wasps did, and not tried to bully them into a situation that was not what they wanted then there would have been no stadium to buy. SISU and Joyless showed their true colours by trying again and again to sue Wasps unsuccessfully instead of attempting to build a mutually beneficial relationship.
Now obviously those original plans have not gone the way anyone at Wasps hoped, and things don't look brilliant right now. But there is a huge amount of love and support for Derek and the team he has assembled among the fans of the club. We are worried, but we trust him. We wouldn't have a club without him.
We're concerned about the bond, but figure there is likely a plan. From the way things have worked out I suspect there was a plan, and something happened to throw a spanner in the works. They wouldn't have been able to mention HSBC if they weren't involved, so something must have happened there. Maybe the threat of more legal action from CCFC was the issue? Who knows. I'm a bond holder and I'm ok with waiting as long as my 6.5% is being paid.
We're concerned about the lack of income, but understand that Rugby is a pretty poor way to try to make money. The plan for the club was for hotels, conferences, concerts, football, netball, and rugby all to come together. Covid effectively killed every single one of those income streams, and it is only just starting to bounce back. Hotels, Bars, Concert Venues and other similar businesses went under all over the country and so the fact that we are still here is a testament to how well the club is run.
We're concerned about the performances on the field, as a fan base we have different theories about what is causing it, but that is what this place is for, we disagree, we debate, sometimes we get cross, but we are all Wasps fans first and foremost.
We're concerned that CCFC might be more trouble than they are worth. Not a single game played this season and already legal threats. It's like your club can't understand that a healthy working relationship benefits us both. We aren't in competition, we can both succeed.
I'm sure some people are concerned about the training centre, but I'm not. It was never owned by Wasps, it was owned by Derek and Chris, now it is owned by just Chris, who is not only a very switched on and successful guy, but sits on the board of Wasps. A company doesn't have to own a property for it to be its home. Just like the freehold of the Arena does not belong to Wasps, the freehold of the training centre doesn't either.
So yeah we're concerned, but we certainly aren't panicking yet.
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
It is truly unbelievable how delusional they are. Of course we've had many posts on here that don't stand up to much scrutiny but they have this collective denial that anything could possibly be wrong. Its staggering.
A business losing millions every year, even pre-covid, hated locally, unable to pay their bills, attendances in freefall, unable to carry out stadium maintenance and many many more examples and they keep insisting everything is fine.
A business losing millions every year, even pre-covid, hated locally, unable to pay their bills, attendances in freefall, unable to carry out stadium maintenance and many many more examples and they keep insisting everything is fine.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Vulgaris like Shugs hangs on to the COVID issue and says he worked in the events industry and it makes "loads of money" - its ostrich style behaviour
Liquid Gold
Well-Known Member
Also they're bleating that HMRC haven't confirmed the unpaid tax bill even though Wasps themselves have confirmed they're in discussion with them.
It never ceases to amaze me how head in the sand they are around there.
It never ceases to amaze me how head in the sand they are around there.
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
I saw what he wrote about the events industry, if I was being charitable I'd say its been many many years since he worked in the industry because what he wrote might have been true then but certainly isn't now.
Nick
Administrator
I have a feeling that not many are from the actual area, they only seem to see the press releases from Wasps and each other saying how everything is great. At the start all of the PR was "It woz SISU" which people lapped up, they have carried it on and think everything is just SISU badmouthing them. Auditors saying Wasps had falsified evidence, it was SISU.
The one person who has told me the "events" side makes loads of money based this on an event being rammed and the bar being busy so they then assumed they were printing money from it.
They think that HMRC is made up because there's been no public statement from HMRC saying how much Wasps owe. I get the impression their active fanbase online are a lot older / set in their ways.
The one person who has told me the "events" side makes loads of money based this on an event being rammed and the bar being busy so they then assumed they were printing money from it.
They think that HMRC is made up because there's been no public statement from HMRC saying how much Wasps owe. I get the impression their active fanbase online are a lot older / set in their ways.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Vulgaris is from Hampshire and admits he doesn't go the ground much as its a bit far
Nick
Administrator
Sounds like those Man Utd fans in Nigeria burning their shirt after a loss.
MusicDating
Euro 2016 Prediction League Champion!!
I think part of it is them not wanting to admit they've had the wool pulled over their eyes for many years.
Terry Gibson's perm
Well-Known Member
Not a single game played and legal threats, we would have played games if they had looked after the pitch.
CrawleySkyBlue
Well-Known Member
When is the next instalment of interest due? Being £1,137,500 (£35m x 6.5% / 2 as paid 6 monthly). Is it November? 6 months on from the redemption date?
This will be when things get real interesting with the bond holders - not repaying the principal is one thing, but promising that the principal will be repaid at a later date along with the default 6.5% per annum interest and not paying that interest will cause shockwaves with the bond holders I predict. Without the cumulative interest being received, and with no sign of the principal being repaid, the bond is effectively worthless. Therefore this is why I think the next instalment of interest payments will be interesting (assuming of course the principal is not repaid before then… unlikely I would say).
As an aside, if I were a bond holder I would want more than the 6.5% interest seeing as the bond is inherently higher risk now (as principal not repaid and no communicated plans on how this will be repaid).
This will be when things get real interesting with the bond holders - not repaying the principal is one thing, but promising that the principal will be repaid at a later date along with the default 6.5% per annum interest and not paying that interest will cause shockwaves with the bond holders I predict. Without the cumulative interest being received, and with no sign of the principal being repaid, the bond is effectively worthless. Therefore this is why I think the next instalment of interest payments will be interesting (assuming of course the principal is not repaid before then… unlikely I would say).
As an aside, if I were a bond holder I would want more than the 6.5% interest seeing as the bond is inherently higher risk now (as principal not repaid and no communicated plans on how this will be repaid).
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
They've got this thing about SISU taking legal action against anyone but much as I hate to defend SISU who else have they taken legal action against other than those involved in the stadium shitshow? There was no issue when playing at Northampton or Birmingham.
Indeed if we're talking about people taking action they possibly want to look at the ACL side, seem to recall some posters on here being threatened with lawyers and didn't ACL try to take Northampton to court when we moved there?
CrawleySkyBlue
Well-Known Member
This £1.1m cash outflow will impact Wasps working capital massively. Who even knows if they have the capability of paying £1.1m in cash - would an owner have to stump up the cash, an overdraft facility etc etc?
I would hazard a guess that the £1.1m outflow was not included in any initial budgets as these will have likely assumed a bond repayment and subsequent refinancing. This will all have had to change in subsequent re-forecasting, which will form part of current refinancing negotiations/due diligence as well as any going concern assessments.
All of this will be squeezing Wasp’s finances further.
Also an increase in risk from previous poor business performance and the increase in interest rates will lead to any subsequent refinancing being at a higher interest rate too.
I would hazard a guess that the £1.1m outflow was not included in any initial budgets as these will have likely assumed a bond repayment and subsequent refinancing. This will all have had to change in subsequent re-forecasting, which will form part of current refinancing negotiations/due diligence as well as any going concern assessments.
All of this will be squeezing Wasp’s finances further.
Also an increase in risk from previous poor business performance and the increase in interest rates will lead to any subsequent refinancing being at a higher interest rate too.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
They will be presenting bond holders with an alternative payment structure
Yeah thought that was a bizarre take as well.
tisza
Well-Known Member
Hotels, Bars, Concert Venues and other similar businesses went under all over the country and so the fact that we are still here is a testament to how well the club is run.
They've had so much advance money against future income plus COVID loans etc. They've scalped their players wages.
Man's delusional.
They've had so much advance money against future income plus COVID loans etc. They've scalped their players wages.
Man's delusional.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Vulgaris bragging I won't be posting again lasted long
duffer
Well-Known Member
Yes, it doesn't sound as though it's an entirely independent process does it!
Ah well, if Wasps play their cards right they might be able to appoint an Administrator who can't find the golden share.
Moff
Well-Known Member
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
Yeah as long as they get interest paid, it's worth sucking it up and being held over a barrell as still, effectively, you're getting a better return than you'd ever get elsewhere.
Of course the other way it could go wrong is if savings interest rates go up substantially.Then the 6.5% isn't so appealing if based on a savagely insecure investment.
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
I thought we had a lot of people on here who struggled with some basic facts but Wasps fans are a special breed. The old a couple more concerts and we'll be fine
Bondholder FB Comment
Further to my earlier post my wish is to see a bondholder sufficiently financially versed to lead us in going for the jugular. With all the problems at Worcester as well now, wee need bondholders to show their teeth. Sell the stadium is the only real source of some repayment. Wasps never prepared a repayment plan in the run up to redemption. We are three months past the date and not a clear way out. Forget HSBC that was a smoke screen. Bondholder action is the only answer to this sad scenario
Further to my earlier post my wish is to see a bondholder sufficiently financially versed to lead us in going for the jugular. With all the problems at Worcester as well now, wee need bondholders to show their teeth. Sell the stadium is the only real source of some repayment. Wasps never prepared a repayment plan in the run up to redemption. We are three months past the date and not a clear way out. Forget HSBC that was a smoke screen. Bondholder action is the only answer to this sad scenario